What good is the doctrine of Predestination?

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

While I would agree that God is capable of being a masterful mathematician and logician, and while I would give God credit for being able to do that stuff, I cannot give God glory for that as a human being.

God being able to calculate future events implies some degree of determinism. Determinism implies that the universe is a big, complex machine that if allowed to run independently and without intervention, will always generate the same result. As human beings, because we are composed of the same matter as the rest of the universe, we must be a part of that big machine. The idea behind predestination is that regardless of what we do, the result will be the same. The course of future events will not change. That's because our choices are a part of that big machine and are generated by that big machine.

This is the gist of predestination. The result is always the same and God knows that final result.

Unfortunately, you can't value human beings by treating them as machines, or a part of a big machine. Human beings want to be valued and appreciated as beings with free will, capable of making their own choices. Human beings that are treated as mere instruments of a bigger machine have no sentimental value. Beings treated like that have no dignity, and a God that doesn't preserve or protect our personal dignity has no honour or glory.

That's why I can't give God glory for being a masterful mathematician or logician. He knows too much. He has absolute control over everything. A God like that doesn't really care about me. He's just out to manipulate and possess people. Predestination depicts God as a Father Time figure, a Master of Time.

There is, however, a more favourable depiction of God -- The Superman Father. This is a God that is capable of being Father Time, but doesn't care about the ultimate Fate of the universe. It's a God who doesn't care about the final result, but one who only cares about what's important -- the relevant result. He's capable of absolute control, but because of the moral issues associated with that level of control, He doesn't try to control everything. He only tries to control what's important.

The Superman Father God has tremendous power, but only uses it to protect those whom He has chosen as His people. He has a right to use that power because He's using it to help those who love Him. He doesn't abuse that power by trying to achieve absolute control of the universe. His actions have sentimental value which is the reason why He's justified in using that power.

It's a relationship. Once again, it's like Superman. His power and ability are not as important as how He uses that power. His power and ability make Him a hero, but what makes Him even more of a hero is His attitude and personality. That is what gives God glory -- not His power, but His attitude. I don't really care if God is omnipotent, omniscient, all-seeing, far-seeing, or whatever. I don't care about His knowledge and foresight. It's His attitude and scruples that matters. But, it does make me a lucky person if a God with His power and foresight were on my side.

We don't want a God that manipulates events. We want a God we can connect with intimately and personally. We want a relationship with God. We want someone we can love and feel. Something fuzzy like a teddy bear. We want an innocent, humble, down-to-earth God, not a know-all control freak God.

It's ok for God to be a Superman Father, but not ok to be Master of Time.

A lot of what you're saying sounds very much like what someone with a very small view of God and an incorrect understanding of scripture would say, to be honest. Its very humanistic and man-centered. But, that is not what I want to talk about. What I want to say is short and true. You see, whether you know it or not, God will receive glory from your life. Either he will recieve glory to the praise of His grace for saving you, or he will recieve glory if he chooses to give you justice. God always wins! It is what it is. You know?

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

I believe that predestination only applies to believers.. Its a mystery and theres a reason why its a mystery.. If He wanted us to know He would just tell us..

Sis, you're right - it does only apply to believers. But, I dont think it is a mystery. I think its plainly taught in scripture and in the last 100 years or so, we have gotten away from it in American Christanity. I have such a passion to see Christians learn it, sometimes. Please forgive me if its anoying. Its just that I have seen the fruits of it and I get angry that the ones that dont know about it think its hersy without even testing it by the word. Of course, testing it by the word does not ensure you will be a believer of it, but you will know that it isnt evil and wrong. Look at what these doctrines produced throughout time, from Agustine, to the Reformation, to the Purtians, to Chargles Spurgeon in England, Jonathan Edwards and the "Great Awakening" in America, to Mcauthor and John Piper, and Way of the Master, in recient times. This doctrine simply changes those who truely understands it.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Silas

I say this to you Mee. For you, Mee, I would beg you to pray to Jesus and confess your sins in Him, while trusting ONLY in HIM and NOT in yourself, lest you trip over your own self-righteoueness and refused the rock that is Christ.

i am glad to say that i dont trust in myself
Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding. In all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight.proverbs 3;5-6
(Luke 9:35) And a voice came out of the cloud, saying: "This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him."

[Tariki]

Originally Posted by Silas

I thought about PMing you Tarki, but for the sake of others here, I would write it so everyone can see. You mentioned that you were convicted of sin. Did you know that conviction of sin does not make you a Christian? Anyone who pays attention to the testimony of their conscience can be convicted of sin, for it "alerms" every time we break one of God's laws (which are written upon our hearts, incidentally). Also, the Holy Spirit convicts sinners of sin, without them actually being born again. That said, you also mentioned that you "asked Jesus to come into your heart." I must be honest with you, Tarki, that isnt the remedy for salvation. Asking Jesus to come into your heart is not what saves people at all. Rather, what saves us is when we do what God commands - namely, Repent (stop breaking his laws and stop living for ourselves) and Believe in Christ (Trust in Him alone. Trust that His righteousness will save you or else you perish -thats trust).

This alone is the Biblical remedy for salvation. God has given us His laws, not for us to keep them (no has and none can), but for us to see that we arent good and in need of a Savior. He gave us His laws to lead us to Christ where we can find forgivenss through Trusting in Him. If you would just get a glimpse of God's holiness, you will see that your best works or goodness at its zenith, is only filty rags, before a Perfect and thrice Holy God. Look at Christ - His willingness to always do the will of the Father, His goodness and how they were ALWAYS done with pure and perfect motives, the fact the did good to God's glory, rather than his own, etc., and look at yourself, you can see that you fall short. Understanding the gravity of our falling short with a Perfect and Holy God, who hates sin, should cause us to understand, at least to some degree, why we NEED a Savior. If you feel that God is too good to punish sin, Look to the cross. Look at how God slaughtered His sinless Son on behalf of evil people.

Now, if we trust in Christ, our sins can be imputed to His body where He suffered and died to pay the cost, and His perfect righteousness will be imputed or credited to our account whereby we can both be forgiven and good enough to enter God's perfection in Heaven. Without Christ, we are all doomed. This is what you must see if you are to be born again. Until you see this, at least to some degree, you are still dead in sins, and any experience that you had as a Christian, is just that - "an experience" of being a false convert. I have to be honest, you were never saved. You MUST repent and trust in Christ if that is to ever happen. I would ask you in all sincerity to call out to God as if Hell was opening up before you and beg Him to save you. Do that and wait on the Lord. He will save anyone who wants Christ!

Silas,

Thank you.......and you did in fact PM me.

To be honest I suspected from your previous questions that you were in fact probing to the point where I would use a set of words or terms that you would then be able to dismiss as not being adequate to conform with your own concepts, understanding and theology. I would have thought that my "salvation" would be within the hands of "God" and "God's will" and not within the parameters set by your own theology or understanding - yet I acknowledge that for you these appear to be one and the same.

We must agree to differ. As the wordsmith Bob Dylan has sung so eloquently (?)..............."Most likely your'll go your way and I'll go mine".

I would just say that for me, using terms you would at least understand - if not agree to - that a process of sanctification follows any "moment of salvation". In my experience the "sanctification" process - being conformed to the image of Christ - is the work of grace that happens often inspite of our theologies, or whatever, rather than because of them. I have no doubt - and I am not just paying "lip service" to this - that you are now being conformed by the Divinity into the likeness of Christ;this perhaps - as I have said - inspite of your theology rather than because of it!

It saddens me that you are not prepared to even countenance the possiblity that others who do not share your own views could actually themselves be under the process of sanctification.

No doubt you will sift through my words now to expose weaknesses that your own "theology" can exploit. So be it. We all have free will!!

I wish you well.
Derek


P.S. As I said, I have used Christian terms although now fundamentally a "Buddhist". I have tried to meet you half-way. Perhaps you could "pop across" to the Pure Land some time? Amida would be pleased to see you..........

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Tariki

Silas,

Thank you.......and you did in fact PM me.

To be honest I suspected from your previous questions that you were in fact probing to the point where I would use a set of words or terms that you would then be able to dismiss as not being adequate to conform with your own concepts, understanding and theology. I would have thought that my "salvation" would be within the hands of "God" and "God's will" and not within the parameters set by your own theology or understanding - yet I acknowledge that for you these appear to be one and the same.

We must agree to differ. As the wordsmith Bob Dylan has sung so eloquently (?)..............."Most likely your'll go your way and I'll go mine".

I would just say that for me, using terms you would at least understand - if not agree to - that a process of sanctification follows any "moment of salvation". In my experience the "sanctification" process - being conformed to the image of Christ - is the work of grace that happens often inspite of our theologies, or whatever, rather than because of them. I have no doubt - and I am not just paying "lip service" to this - that you are now being conformed by the Divinity into the likeness of Christ;this perhaps - as I have said - inspite of your theology rather than because of it!

It saddens me that you are not prepared to even countenance the possiblity that others who do not share your own views could actually themselves be under the process of sanctification.

No doubt you will sift through my words now to expose weaknesses that your own "theology" can exploit. So be it. We all have free will!!

I wish you well.
Derek


P.S. As I said, I have used Christian terms although now fundamentally a "Buddhist". I have tried to meet you half-way. Perhaps you could "pop across" to the Pure Land some time? Amida would be pleased to see you..........

Thanks D for the nice words! You know, I think we might have somethings in common? Before I came to understand the exceeding sinfulness of my sins before a perfect and holy God, I used to think I was a Christian. In fact, I did many things Christians do. I prayed alot, went to church, shared my faith with others and did some evangelizing, etc., but I had no idea why Jesus died. I really was a product of my environment. My parants were religous and I grew up knowing of God, but never knowing Him. To make a long story short, I basically thought and whole heartedly believed that all religions were just different paths to the same God. And because of that belief, I practiced, to some degree, zen meditation, "Christanity" (love everyone as yourself), Islam, and some other stuff. I lived that way for a very long time. I was an avarage guy that never really got into a lot of trouble and compared to most, I was the "goodie to shoes." Imagine my suprise when in early '03 I heard the gospel explained. I wasnt even looking for God and God made His truths clear to me. Now, therefore, I cannot adhere to "other ways" and "other truths." I can only say with all Christians, "I once was blind and now I see." Thats all I can give you bro. I know if you see yourself as God sees you, and call out to Christ for mercy, God will save you.

Later,

Silas

[Tariki]

Originally Posted by Silas

Thanks D for the nice words! You know, I think we might have somethings in common? Before I came to understand the exceeding sinfulness of my sins before a perfect and holy God, I used to think I was a Christian. In fact, I did many things Christians do. I prayed alot, went to church, shared my faith with others and did some evangelizing, etc., but I had no idea why Jesus died. I really was a product of my environment. My parants were religous and I grew up knowing of God, but never knowing Him. To make a long story short, I basically thought and whole heartedly believed that all religions were just different paths to the same God. And because of that belief, I practiced, to some degree, zen meditation, "Christanity" (love everyone as yourself), Islam, and some other stuff. I lived that way for a very long time. I was an avarage guy that never really got into a lot of trouble and compared to most, I was the "goodie to shoes." Imagine my suprise when in early '03 I heard the gospel explained. I wasnt even looking for God and God made His truths clear to me. Now, therefore, I cannot adhere to "other ways" and "other truths." I can only say with all Christians, "I once was blind and now I see." Thats all I can give you bro. I know if you see yourself as God sees you, and call out to Christ for mercy, God will save you.

Later,

Silas

Silas,

And thank you for your words which seek to reconcile and understand rather than to refute ( the Trappist monk Thomas Merton has said that we should always seek the "yes" to another where-ever we can - see the Thomas Merton thread for the full quote)

Yes, we appear slightly back to front - I had known the Christian gospel - known it much as you explain it - well before any exposure to other faiths.

Anyway, here are some words from a neutral, the Islamic Sufi, Rumi....

Inside the Great Mystery that is,
we don't really own anything.
What is this competition we feel then,
before we go, one at a time, through the same gate?


Once again, I wish you well

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Silas

Whether you know it or not, trust me, you will give God Glory. Either He will recieve glory to the praise of His grace when instead of sending you to hell he saves you, or He will recieve glory when He gives you justice and you go to hell. Either way, God's glory is secure - it will be done. It is what it is. That said, your understanding of biblical predestination is not right.

His understanding of the biblical predestination is just as accurate as yours Silas...

Sitting here watching your posts for several weeks now...and you don't listen to advice, you don't adhere to rules, in fact you don't act very Christian like at all (give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's...). You just pound away at people. You simply do what you damn well want to do...

No one goes to hell unless GOD says they are.
No one is short of the glory unless GOD says they are.
No one will be denied entry into the pearly gates unless GOD says so.

And, last time I checked you ain't GOD.

This is a place of comparrison and discussion, not a pulpit to condemn anyone who does not think exactly as you think. And, sir, I mean you best tone your rhetoric down.

I hope I am perfectly clear on this point, Silas.

v/r

Joshua

p.s. thread locked