What Happened To Boldness?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

These figures seem a bit hard to believe . . .

As I'm not American, and don't live in America, I've perceived Christianity to be a minority. I thought they were also a minority in America.

Depiction of American life seen on television don't depict much interest in Christianity. Whenever I see a depiction of Christianity in American TV programs, it's usually accompanied by comments on the so-called "Jesus freaks," "Bible Belt" or "Bible Thumpers" as if Christianity is something foreign. Deeply spiritual Christians (or simply, "Christians") are depicted as obnoxious or deranged characters that have nothing better to say than "we love the Lord Jesus" or "God works in mysterious ways." They are portrayed as people who do nothing else by utter the mantras commonly attributed to Christianity.

I guess if Christians really are a majority in America then they are probably bolder (and perhaps more "obnoxious" and "deranged") than I think -- more predisposed to "utter the mantras." The sense of being a majority means there is less fear of being seen as "deranged" and "obnoxious." There is more freedom to be reckless.

Still, it's a bit hard to believe Christianity could be a majority in America. How can anyone like a Christianity that dominates? A sense of majority causes audacity and obnoxiousness (especially with people like Pat Robinson). Power and domination corrupts. That's why I find it hard to imagine that many people would like Christianity that much.

I didn't invent the numbers...Salt. I just posted them. And I'm very sorry you can't believe that the majority of America is Christian....neither can the rest of the world I suppose.

But that is what the numbers say...I guess you thought what, maybe 48 %?

ouch.

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

These figures seem a bit hard to believe . . .

As I'm not American, and don't live in America, I've perceived Christianity to be a minority. I thought they were also a minority in America.

Depiction of American life seen on television don't depict much interest in Christianity. Whenever I see a depiction of Christianity in American TV programs, it's usually accompanied by comments on the so-called "Jesus freaks," "Bible Belt" or "Bible Thumpers" as if Christianity is something foreign. Deeply spiritual Christians (or simply, "Christians") are depicted as obnoxious or deranged characters that have nothing better to say than "we love the Lord Jesus" or "God works in mysterious ways." They are portrayed as people who do nothing else by utter the mantras commonly attributed to Christianity.

I guess if Christians really are a majority in America then they are probably bolder (and perhaps more "obnoxious" and "deranged") than I think -- more predisposed to "utter the mantras." The sense of being a majority means there is less fear of being seen as "deranged" and "obnoxious." There is more freedom to be reckless.

Still, it's a bit hard to believe Christianity could be a majority in America. How can anyone like a Christianity that dominates? A sense of majority causes audacity and obnoxiousness (especially with people like Pat Robinson). Power and domination corrupts. That's why I find it hard to imagine that many people would like Christianity that much.

Like a little salt with that? Nice thing about salt...after awhile, it no longer stings...

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I didn't invent the numbers...Salt. I just posted them. And I'm very sorry you can't believe that the majority of America is Christian....neither can the rest of the world I suppose.

But that is what the numbers say...I guess you thought what, maybe 48 %?

ouch.

v/r

Q

Aw . . . no, I thought it was even worse than that -- maybe 6-10 %?

That was what I heard in a report I heard in my church about Christianity in my local community, state and country. Some books I've read say that more churches are being replaced by mosques and Buddhist "temples" than are being planted in the West. Christianity was depicted as a religion destined either for extinction or just destined to become a minority. I had the idea that Western (as in "Western European") countries had developed a kind of "dislike" for Christianity.

America might be an exception. Perhaps the downwards trend is happening more in Britain, France, Germany and Australia.

It's also possible that the report may have focused more on "traditional," "denominational" and "mainstream" Christianity.

Actually, upon looking up Christian population statistics (collected by census) for Australia, the figures added up to 67 % in 2001. Now that's strange. Why do we keep hearing alarm bells going off and voices saying that Christianity is facing a crisis, that people are leaving Christianity and its churches? I started to get a feeling that I was looking at the wrong statistics.

Perhaps what I heard was about church attendance? In other words, the report was not about Christian/non-Christian porportions but churched/unchurched? If the statistics were on church attendance then the statistics are definitely very low -- around 6-10 % attending every single week, the figure I suggested before. The actual proportion of people considering themselves to be Christian may be higher. At least 70 % of Western populations don't attend church. That means that around 20 % of people actually attend church, once in a while.

That must be it then. Leaders of Christianity are probably more worried about church attendance than census results of who considers himself/herself Christian. Church attendance is seen as important as interest/lack of interest is an indication of who is actually concerned about being part of the community.

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

I think there's a danger to saying how we think society should or should not function.

I am a parent as well as a Christian. I don't intend to be quiet about what sort of society I want my children and grandchildren to grow up in. I may not be able to do a whole lot about it, but in my little corner, I can at least speak up.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Aw . . . no, I thought it was even worse than that -- maybe 6-10 %?

That was what I heard in a report I heard in my church about Christianity in my local community, state and country. Some books I've read say that more churches are being replaced by mosques and Buddhist "temples" than are being planted in the West. Christianity was depicted as a religion destined either for extinction or just destined to become a minority. I had the idea that Western (as in "Western European") countries had developed a kind of "dislike" for Christianity.

America might be an exception. Perhaps the downwards trend is happening more in Britain, France, Germany and Australia.

It's also possible that the report may have focused more on "traditional," "denominational" and "mainstream" Christianity.

Actually, upon looking up Christian population statistics (collected by census) for Australia, the figures added up to 67 % in 2001. Now that's strange. Why do we keep hearing alarm bells going off and voices saying that Christianity is facing a crisis, that people are leaving Christianity and its churches? I started to get a feeling that I was looking at the wrong statistics.

.

Here is a World Break down:



It is true that Christianity is dropping and Islam is rising, while most others are more or less stable. However this is based on total world population percentages. In reality Christianity is growing (not declining), in actual numbers of Christians, world wide @ 1.4%, however the world population is increasing at a rate of 1.4% which means the Christianity is growing at a pace equal to the world's growing population The greatest rates of population growth are in the Middle east and in Asia, where Islam is the more or less dominant religion, Hence the steady climb of Islam per capita of people. However the growth of Islam surprisingly, is only @ 1.5%, which is slighty ahead of the the overall growth of world population in general.

v/r

Q

edit: Also note that the non religious category is declining at a rate of .5% per year, which would possibly indicate that people are choosing a religion or faith instead of remaining agnostic or atheist.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Here is a World Break down:

It is true that Christianity is dropping and Islam is rising, while most others are more or less stable. However this is based on total world population percentages. In reality Christianity is growing (not declining), in actual numbers of Christians, world wide @ 1.4%, however the world population is increasing at a rate of 1.4% which means the Christianity is growing at a pace equal to the world's growing population The greatest rates of population growth are in the Middle east and in Asia, where Islam is the more or less dominant religion, Hence the steady climb of Islam per capita of people. However the growth of Islam surprisingly, is only @ 1.5%, which is slighty ahead of the the overall growth of world population in general.

edit: Also note that the non religious category is declining at a rate of .5% per year, which would possibly indicate that people are choosing a religion or faith instead of remaining agnostic or atheist.

I think I was looking at the wrong statistics. I was looking at church attendance, not profession of faith.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Like a little salt with that? Nice thing about salt...after awhile, it no longer stings...

Salt definitely makes food more palatable sometimes. But it's not good to have too much . . .

You're not talking about me are you? Do I sting?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

I think I was looking at the wrong statistics. I was looking at church attendance, not profession of faith.



Salt definitely makes food more palatable sometimes. But it's not good to have too much . . .

You're not talking about me are you? Do I sting?

Not you. But you did indicate you were having a bit of a hard time "swallowing" the Statistics on Christianity, so I thought a little "salt" might help make the taste more palatable...

v/r

Q

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Not you. But you did indicate you were having a bit of a hard time "swallowing" the Statistics on Christianity, so I thought a little "salt" might help make the taste more palatable...

v/r

Q

As I said, wrong statistics.

Nevertheless, consider church attendance. Do you consider it a problem? Are there really that many "Christians" or is church just a waste of time?

I must have been reading some really pessimistic literature on the state of Christianity.

Or are these people right? Is Christianity facing a crisis of meaning and identity?

I'm not saying you have to attend church to be Christian. (There's also a question of what church you go to, questions of finding the right church, a good good church. Whether or not you're accepted or respected in a Christian coimmunity, or treat you like trash, etc. . . And more questions and issues . . .) (Arrrrgggghhhhh!!!!!!!)

Then there's the real nasty question of whether there's any point being Christian considering how other Christians are doing. Any point to religion at all? Yes, real nasty questions that really hurt. I realise how much of a challenge it is to even raise the issue.

So how are we all doing out there?

Or should we just go with the story that Jesus told about God inviting a whole lot of people to a party, they didn't come and he invited the poor people, the scumbags and ratbags instead?

If so, I'd like to be a scumbag so I've got the right attitude to muster the motivation to come to the party. Break a leg.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

As I said, wrong statistics.

Nevertheless, consider church attendance. Do you consider it a problem? Are there really that many "Christians" or is church just a waste of time?

I must have been reading some really pessimistic literature on the state of Christianity.

Or are these people right? Is Christianity facing a crisis of meaning and identity?

I'm not saying you have to attend church to be Christian. (There's also a question of what church you go to, questions of finding the right church, a good good church. Whether or not you're accepted or respected in a Christian coimmunity, or treat you like trash, etc. . . And more questions and issues . . .) (Arrrrgggghhhhh!!!!!!!)

Then there's the real nasty question of whether there's any point being Christian considering how other Christians are doing. Any point to religion at all? Yes, real nasty questions that really hurt. I realise how much of a challenge it is to even raise the issue.

So how are we all doing out there?

Or should we just go with the story that Jesus told about God inviting a whole lot of people to a party, they didn't come and he invited the poor people, the scumbags and ratbags instead?

If so, I'd like to be a scumbag so I've got the right attitude to muster the motivation to come to the party. Break a leg.

Crisis or identity issue with being a Christian...not from where I am standing (speaking for myself). I like being a Christian. I like the confidence I feel, and the sense of security for my ultimate existence. I like the concept of God knowing me personally (by the way, that does seem to be an American trait more or less according to statistics...I just heard that on NPR this morning). I like the ability to walk into any church, because it is God's house, regardless of what denomination or faith the regulars profess.

What would be more preferrable:

"He goes to church like clockwork." or

"He's a good man. Doesn't go to church much, but He's tight with God, and it shows. He'd give you the shirt off his back. I'd trust him with anything..."


The first is an objective statement, nothing more or less.

The second is a combination of things, admiration, lament, confirmation, revelation, and confidence.

Or, more consisely, an expression/description of Faith, Hope and Love, a walking billboard expressing the Good News for all to see, and for those seeing, to share in voice...

There is your boldness, but it is quiet. But then, according to the Bible, so is the voice of God.

Can't hear Him in the wind, or the thunder, nor the waves, nor anything, but save for the "whisper" to one's soul. And to emphasise the point, God tells us to "be still, and know that I Am God".

All too often, the well intentioned make it impossible for others to hear God, for the overly verbose, uninvited ministrations that drown the sound of God's voice to one who might otherwise be receptive in listening...

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

[Blue Jay]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Crisis or identity issue with being a Christian...not from where I am standing (speaking for myself). I like being a Christian. I like the confidence I feel, and the sense of security for my ultimate existence. I like the concept of God knowing me personally (by the way, that does seem to be an American trait more or less according to statistics...I just heard that on NPR this morning). I like the ability to walk into any church, because it is God's house, regardless of what denomination or faith the regulars profess.

What would be more preferrable:

"He goes to church like clockwork." or

"He's a good man. Doesn't go to church much, but He's tight with God, and it shows. He'd give you the shirt off his back. I'd trust him with anything..."


The first is an objective statement, nothing more or less.

The second is a combination of things, admiration, lament, confirmation, revelation, and confidence.

Or, more consisely, an expression/description of Faith, Hope and Love, a walking billboard expressing the Good News for all to see, and for those seeing, to share in voice...

There is your boldness, but it is quiet. But then, according to the Bible, so is the voice of God.

Can't hear Him in the wind, or the thunder, nor the waves, nor anything, but save for the "whisper" to one's soul. And to emphasise the point, God tells us to "be still, and know that I Am God".

All too often, the well intentioned make it impossible for others to hear God, for the overly verbose, uninvited ministrations that drown the sound of God's voice to one who might otherwise be receptive in listening...

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

Sounds like being the light of the world and salt of the earth like Jesus preached.

Added: Salt is a great preservative and light is a great help.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Crisis or identity issue with being a Christian...not from where I am standing (speaking for myself). I like being a Christian. I like the confidence I feel, and the sense of security for my ultimate existence. I like the concept of God knowing me personally (by the way, that does seem to be an American trait more or less according to statistics...I just heard that on NPR this morning). I like the ability to walk into any church, because it is God's house, regardless of what denomination or faith the regulars profess.

I actually don't feel like I'm in the middle of a crisis either. The congregation I attend is relatively peaceful. There have been no schisms or divisions from when I grew up here to now. I just hear reports of what happens outside my congregation. Negative ones. Alarm bells of Christianity suffering an identity crisis.

I've read books on that topic as well. That makes me wonder. Is all news bad news?

My pastor and our congregation has just celebrated twenty or so years at this congregation (the one I've been in since a child). That's a fairly long time . . . I think I have a fairly mild leader who doesn't try anything too ambitious with ministry, or try to be charismatic. He's gentle in his approach and gives people an opportunity to grow, evolve, develop and adapt. A fairly quiet but effective leader. He takes things slowly. He's not out to impress, but out to connect.

I must be in the eye of the storm. Been kept well protected from bad ministry in my upbringing. I would consider myself lucky I guess. It has taken me a lifetime to appreciate that, as I've been part of this church as long as I've been alive.

A friend invited me to a different church once (not the one I attended from childhood). It was not a church she normally attended either. We just went there to listen to "sermons on Satan" and "prophecies on the devil." You can probably guess where that was leading -- the kind of thing that happens when you have people preaching about Prophecy (Daniel and Revelation) and Satan. We went there just to listen to ideas about the end of the world, the Four Beasts, the "Little Horn" with beady eyes that couldn't stop bragging, the Prince of Darkness, the Beast with ten heads, and the Antichrist. It was all about how the Little Horn took over the world.

We thought of them as theory lessons, we weren't there to be part of the congregation -- to learn.

It's not that I was never interested in that stuff -- Prophecy, the Book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation. I used to read that stuff as a kid. I knew I was a bad kid and was going to face judgment. That's why I was so interested in the end of the world.

There was also speaking in tongues at that church . . . There were also women covering their heads. Very traditional. Very charismatic.

You probably know the safe zones and danger zones (in terms of churches and ministry styles you've explored) better than me. I haven't seen much (in this lifetime). Haven't explored that far. I'm only just beginning in life.

Compared to you I'm a spoilt brat.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

I actually don't feel like I'm in the middle of a crisis either. The congregation I attend is relatively peaceful. There have been no schisms or divisions from when I grew up here to now. I just hear reports of what happens outside my congregation. Negative ones. Alarm bells of Christianity suffering an identity crisis.

I've read books on that topic as well. That makes me wonder. Is all news bad news?

My pastor and our congregation has just celebrated twenty or so years at this congregation (the one I've been in since a child). That's a fairly long time . . . I think I have a fairly mild leader who doesn't try anything too ambitious with ministry, or try to be charismatic. He's gentle in his approach and gives people an opportunity to grow, evolve, develop and adapt. A fairly quiet but effective leader. He takes things slowly. He's not out to impress, but out to connect.

I must be in the eye of the storm. Been kept well protected from bad ministry in my upbringing. I would consider myself lucky I guess. It has taken me a lifetime to appreciate that, as I've been part of this church as long as I've been alive.

A friend invited me to a different church once (not the one I attended from childhood). It was not a church she normally attended either. We just went there to listen to "sermons on Satan" and "prophecies on the devil." You can probably guess where that was leading -- the kind of thing that happens when you have people preaching about Prophecy (Daniel and Revelation) and Satan. We went there just to listen to ideas about the end of the world, the Four Beasts, the "Little Horn" with beady eyes that couldn't stop bragging, the Prince of Darkness, the Beast with ten heads, and the Antichrist. It was all about how the Little Horn took over the world.

We thought of them as theory lessons, we weren't there to be part of the congregation -- to learn.

It's not that I was never interested in that stuff -- Prophecy, the Book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation. I used to read that stuff as a kid. I knew I was a bad kid and was going to face judgment. That's why I was so interested in the end of the world.

There was also speaking in tongues at that church . . . There were also women covering their heads. Very traditional. Very charismatic.

You probably know the safe zones and danger zones (in terms of churches and ministry styles you've explored) better than me. I haven't seen much (in this lifetime). Haven't explored that far. I'm only just beginning in life.

Compared to you I'm a spoilt brat.

Maybe blessed is more appropriate as opposed to "spoiled"...

I don't know about the brat thing...that's usually reserved for children of military members...

[wil]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

...I think I have a fairly mild leader who doesn't try anything too ambitious with ministry, or try to be charismatic. He's gentle in his approach and gives people an opportunity to grow, evolve, develop and adapt. A fairly quiet but effective leader. He takes things slowly. He's not out to impress, but out to connect....

Quietly effective...So much more powerful than boldness.

Fire and brimstone may affect some...the 'You're going to hell, God Bless' is used by many I think well meaning folks...folks who were brought aboard by the same tactics.

You can lead a horse... much better if the horse decides it wants to be there.

Half my son's scout troop has to get home Sunday from campouts to get to church so they don't go to hell... Seems all the boys are missing out on my memories of 'Scout's Own' a non-denominational service in the woods often with some native american lore...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

Quietly effective...So much more powerful than boldness.

Fire and brimstone may affect some...the 'You're going to hell, God Bless' is used by many I think well meaning folks...folks who were brought aboard by the same tactics.

You can lead a horse... much better if the horse decides it wants to be there.

Half my son's scout troop has to get home Sunday from campouts to get to church so they don't go to hell... Seems all the boys are missing out on my memories of 'Scout's Own' a non-denominational service in the woods often with some native american lore...

Ah, hold a church service there in the middle of God's country, on sunday, that will fix that problem...(been there, done that, it works). All you gotta do is show the ministers and parents, what will be taught on that sunday morning, from the good book. Usually the sermon on the mount is effective in convincing all to let the kids finish their camp...

just a thought.

v/r

Q

[wil]

Q, I agree, but some groups have different marching orders...and without one sanctioned to do the proper rituals...it isn't a service.