What happens after death?

[JJM]

My Uncle has died recently. So I thought that I'd post a thread asking people about their personal beliefs about life after death. I'll post my own beliefs later if the thread takes off.


__________________________________________________ _________
I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.
Socrates

[Susma Rio Sep]

Being brought up in Catholic educational institutions, although now a postgraduate Catholic, it has been drilled into our heads since our first Communion day, that there are four last things for every man:

Death, Judgment, Heaven, Hell.

For Catholics then everyone dies, and everyone right after death gets judged, and despatched to heaven or hell, in accordance to their merits or demerits during lifetime.

Just in case you are not really so very bad to get consigned to hell, and not so very good to enter heaven either; then there is purgatory where you might spend light years of torment to cleanse you for admission to heaven.

Salvation by faith alone, propounded by Luther for his own assurance of admission to heaven and preached to everyone who would be freed of the Catholic doctrine of good works, saves Protestants from the insolvable problem of how to really merit heaven, what merits are required as regards the quality and the quantity.

Susma Rio Sep

[Vajradhara]

Namaste jjm,

thank you for the interesting post.

as you know, i try to present my beliefs in the most general manner possible, so as to represent most schools of Buddhism in my replies.

in the case of death and dying, however, the answers that i provide are particular to the Vajrayana.

in our tradition, death is actually quite a wonderful thing... for us, it represents the best opportunity for enlightenment, provided that one has trained properly to be able to deal with the experience as it unfolds.

briefly... we consider what are called "Bardo" which can be loosely translated as "states of becoming" to be things which people pass through as they are shedding the bonds of flesh. this can get quite technical, so i'll spare all of that and say it like this.

in our view... when a person is dying, they are presented with 2 outstanding opportunities for liberation. if they fail to recognize them and proceed into the Bardos, then they start going through the rebirth process, impelled by their ingnorance and their grasping for a body. in our view, as the consciousness is grasping for a form to inhabit, it is attracted to either the mother or the father... if you are a male, you were attracted to your mother. if you are a female, you were attracted to your father. of course... all of this seems quite automatic to the untrained consciousness.

now.. the Theravedans believe that rebirth is instantaneous... there are no Bardos and anything like that...

[Susma Rio Sep]

Vaj, you describe Buddhist death in a rather religiously rosy picture. But it's a belief.

I understand you had served as a soldier and maybe saw comrades dying. Now imagine these comrades you saw dying were Buddhists, would they have died with less trouble for themselves and for their loved ones? The fact of dying is messy affair all around.

For myself, I favor a quick instantaneous death, self-administered.

You might reach the same conclusion if you go to the hospital and witness how people dying die.

Doctors and religious ministers are two kinds of people who benefit from the dying process that is protracted in time and in discomfort.

Susma Rio Sep

[Vajradhara]

Namaste su,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

Vaj, you describe Buddhist death in a rather religiously rosy picture. But it's a belief.

obviously... since we are disucssing our beliefs. actually... i've summed it up so much that it barely is coherent from our point of view... but it gets quite technical and detailed which is counter-productive to conversation but quite useful for conveying information.

I understand you had served as a soldier and maybe saw comrades dying. Now imagine these comrades you saw dying were Buddhists, would they have died with less trouble for themselves and for their loved ones? The fact of dying is messy affair all around.

correct. i don't think that i understand "less trouble for themselves"... if you could clarify that i think that i could answer the question properly. as such, i'll just give it a go. if the soliders that i served with were Buddhists, then their understanding of death and dying wouldn't be the same as those that aren't. by virtue of this fact, the dying process for them wouldn't be as traumatic as it is for non-Buddhists, from our point of view.

For myself, I favor a quick instantaneous death, self-administered.

You might reach the same conclusion if you go to the hospital and witness how people dying die.

yes, i'm aware that you would rather commit suicide.

don't you think that last statement is a bit arrogant? you have no idea if i've been to a hospital or not, let alone volunteer in the hospice ward.

Doctors and religious ministers are two kinds of people who benefit from the dying process that is protracted in time and in discomfort.

Susma Rio Sep

you forgot the mortician, the cemetary, the newspapers, the casket makers et al. why single out physicians and ministers other than to display your prejudice against them? i don't understand it in the least... perhaps you can help me understand your view on this.

[JJM]

I said I'd explain my version of life after death if the thread took off well 4 is enough for me. I am catholic but my views on death are slightly different. I think God wishes All people to enter heaven so after we die anyone who wishes may. But because God doesn't allow sin in heaven so in order to get there you have to completely give up sin. because I believe sin to be not excepting or acting upon God's opinion, those who do not wish to enter heaven by excepting and acting upon God's opinion can choose Hell. Hell isn't a firery torture pit. It is never described that way in the Bible. Hell is simply a place full of sinners with no rules and thus is chaos. Now I think it is described by people as horrible torment because it is always described by people who where particularly holy and would hate Hell. You never see Hell described by a sinner. Now because God will not take away our freedom of choice those who wish to enter heaven but cannot completely rid them self of sin at the very moment of their death go to purgatory. It is a purifying place but not a less severe version of Hell But more like a Rehab for sinners. If in Purgatory you can completely rid yourself of sin you can then enter heaven.

Just my thoughts

__________________________________________________ ________
I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.
Socrates

[StrandgecK]

Originally Posted by JJM

I said I'd explain my version of life after death if the thread took off well 4 is enough for me. I am catholic but my views on death are slightly different. I think God wishes All people to enter heaven so after we die anyone who wishes may. But because God doesn't allow sin in heaven so in order to get there you have to completely give up sin. because I believe sin to be not excepting or acting upon God's opinion, those who do not wish to enter heaven by excepting and acting upon God's opinion can choose Hell. Hell isn't a firery torture pit. It is never described that way in the Bible. Hell is simply a place full of sinners with no rules and thus is chaos. Now I think it is described by people as horrible torment because it is always described by people who where particularly holy and would hate Hell. You never see Hell described by a sinner. Now because God will not take away our freedom of choice those who wish to enter heaven but cannot completely rid them self of sin at the very moment of their death go to purgatory. It is a purifying place but not a less severe version of Hell But more like a Rehab for sinners. If in Purgatory you can completely rid yourself of sin you can then enter heaven.

I dont know about any one else.. but I don't think I could not sin for eternity even if I did have a chance to try and stop, at least if I was still in a form resembling that of a human and tempted by all the same things.

I think, untill I'm dead and shown otherwise, that nothing happens.

[JJM]

Originally Posted by StrandgecK

I dont know about any one else.. but I don't think I could not sin for eternity even if I did have a chance to try and stop, at least if I was still in a form resembling that of a human and tempted by all the same things.

I think, untill I'm dead and shown otherwise, that nothing happens.

Well you wouldn't have all the same temptations because you’d be free from the weakness of your body. And all things are possible with Gods help you could if you wished. Maybe you need to ask yourself if you’d want to.

__________________________________________________ ____________
I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.
Socrates

[StrandgecK]

Maybe you need to ask yourself if you’d want to.

I don't know if I want to.. because I have no clue what heaven is like. If it's floating aroud on a pretty cloud for eternity then no. But if it's a place where I can expand a thought to infinity with out temptations and the weakness of a body, yes. Or heaven could be something I can't even imagine.

[suanni]

Please note: this is nothing but my belief/perception of things. But this, to me is a subject that can only be belief, we will not know until it is our time to go.
My belief is that we go to a place that resembles the condition that we most favour upon earth, with those friends and relatives who we have loved the most and enter it at an 'age' where we were most happy.
Your beliefs on 'Hell' JJ kind of mirror my own but I don't see the after-life in terms of heaven and hell. I see it as planes and there are many planes in my opinion. There is the earthbound plane, where those who have refused to accept that they have passed over or are fearing retribution linger and also those good spirits who feel they still have work to do (or refuse to leave a loved one until it is their time to go); hence ghosts/spirits.
Then there is the next plane, a plane where if we haven't followed the 'guidebook' that we are born with in our hearts we will go to repay for our misdeeds. It is here that those hurts we have committed upon others will be replayed upon us repeatedly until we have learned what we have done wrong. And IMO this sounds a more fitting torment to those who have committed abominable acts upon others.
Many will go directly to the next plane, a plane of pleasures. A plane that mirrors our ideals of a perfect world. In this plane we are capable of passing back to earth to assist those loved ones who are in trouble....or just fancy wandering but we're capable of flitting back and forth at will but never up over.
For those who are more spiritually attuned to the Maker they will go to the next plane and onwards (or upwards) until we get to be with the Maker.
Just a belief.
My deepest sympathies for your loss JJM. The death of a loved one is never easy.

[JJM]

Originally Posted by suanni

My deepest sympathies for your loss JJM. The death of a loved one is never easy.

Thank you!

[Darkwolf]

Originally Posted by JJM

My Uncle has died recently. So I thought that I'd post a thread asking people about their personal beliefs about life after death. I'll post my own beliefs later if the thread takes off.


__________________________________________________ _________
I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.
Socrates

I believe that after death, your heart is weighed against the feather of Truth. If your heart is light, you pass into paradise where you can rest or reincarnate by your choice. You can also visit earth to see loved ones. If your heart is heavy with bad deeds and thoughts, you can not go to paradise. If you feel true sorrow for the bad you did, your heart is lightened and you can pass. I think this happens in most cases, as in death you can see much more clearly. Those who do not feel sorrow may be sent back to mortal life to learn and come to a better understanding. On those very rare occasions where someone not only does bad, but is actually evil, their heart is eaten by a demon that sits by the scales and their soul is destroyed.

[JJM]

Originally Posted by Darkwolf

I believe that after death, your heart is weighed against the feather of Truth. If your heart is light, you pass into paradise where you can rest or reincarnate by your choice. You can also visit earth to see loved ones. If your heart is heavy with bad deeds and thoughts, you can not go to paradise. If you feel true sorrow for the bad you did, your heart is lightened and you can pass. I think this happens in most cases, as in death you can see much more clearly. Those who do not feel sorrow may be sent back to mortal life to learn and come to a better understanding. On those very rare occasions where someone not only does bad, but is actually evil, their heart is eaten by a demon that sits by the scales and their soul is destroyed.

I know this has nothing to do with the post but do you worship Egyptian Gods or do you just believe in their afterlife scenario?

__________________________________________________ _________________
I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.
Socrates

[Darkwolf]

Originally Posted by JJM

I know this has nothing to do with the post but do you worship Egyptian Gods or do you just believe in their afterlife scenario?

Yep, I worship them. I'm Kemetic, a follower of ancient Egyptian religion. Some of my post on the afterlife is just my own beliefs and interpretation, but the judgement by weighing the heart is Kemetic.

[Zenda71]

First, JJM, my condolences to you and your family.

I'm a Theravadin Buddhist. The scripture of the Tipitaka says, basically, we are reincarnated or pass into extinction. Personally, I believe death is an experience beyond description and that it is not helpful to discuss what happens "after". The Buddha considered questions such as "indeterminate questions" and chose not to answer them directly. I think this was wise since these questions usually cause more confusion than are helpful. (Besides, words are imprecise and talking about something as experiential as death is like explaining an orgasm ... what words could ever describe it?)

For more explanation on this, you can look here ... http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/...avyaakata.html

With metta