What if....

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Hey 17th,
Boy did you open up a can of worms

Can you see the meaning you have attatched to the things you have mentioned? It seems there is meaning in your mind, a mental construct of what death is, and existence, even dualism and non dualism has for you some meaning and all these meanings have to be managed somehow don't they?
What would happen if you chose not to manage them?

Originally Posted by seattlegal

We are the ones who contain errors...

What? And run around naked without any clothes! I thought only very young children and crazy people did that!

Originally Posted by Paladin

Welcome to my world

Hehehehe! Where's the remote? {I just love pushing buttons. } **Let's see, what happens if I push the 'pause' button?** (Time stops) **What happens if I turn the contrast all the way down?** (It gets dark) **What would happen if I push the reset button? Better not try that one...What's this 'input' button for?**

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Paladin

This is hard to explain in words, especially for me, because I'm getting dumber all the time

I would say that, as you age, you are reversing yourself into a state of transcendental dumbness, if I had the words to say it.

s.

[earl]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Sure it does, then there is something that has made you and wishes for you to do something, also they all have a promise of reward, so life isn't the end IF one of these WAS true.



Well yeah, that can really depend on the person... I wouldn't see job as a sedative... That is some kind of drug I have a reaction to, and makes the condition called "life" even more unbearable.....





But what spirituality? What's that? Where does it tell you about that... In such and such book? What if that book is a load of bull? And spirituality isn't real. lol... I like that next bit, fancy words If there is nothing beyond death then there is nothing.. IF... If there is that word again....

17th, your rightful musings here remind me of a question my now 31 y.o. son asked me when he was 10 and his schizophrenic uncle had just committed suicide. He was in grief re it and was having a nihilistic moment, something along the lines of the tone of your thread. He could not comprehend that there was any form of continuation following death-he has always had a very empirical/scientific mindset. He asked me how I could even be open to such or what form of continuation that would take. Of course, not knowing I simply told him I thought that we returned to the same "mystery" from which we came at birth. I guess that "koan" engaged something in his mind as that satisfied him on some level. You/we ask about life after death-could it even exist? How many ponder from whence we came? 2 end-points in the "mystery." In a sense our "life" is like finding ourselves in a tunnel that trails off in both directions and which we cannot see beyond or perhaps even to the ends of that tunnel. Yet we find ourselves in it. We came from "somewhere" and are going "somewhere." Spirituality in a sense is that ongoing questioning between those 2 events in time. Or simply have a nice trip and look neither ahead nor behind you. earl

[Paladin]

speaking of trips Earl, I hope one of these days you decide to come on out and see the Rocky Mountains.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by earl

Yet we find ourselves in it. We came from "somewhere" and are going "somewhere."

But if I read 17th well, he'll say "We came from 'somewhere' and are going 'nowhere'", which is the whole problem.

I guess one must ask if what one believes is worth it, even if there is no "reward". I can't say that I like the thought that all we have is this life and are no more. But I also wonder how I would live knowing that for sure. Would I still be a Christian, or live the principles of a Christian life, though there be no heaven? That would of course depend on how I find my life progressing, if I found anything of value in the Christian principles and if they have enhanced my life and relationships. I've heard that Jews in general do not worry about whether there is an afterlife, yet still live according to the Torah, and found satisfaction in that lifestyle, even in the worship of God. Should we worship a God that gives no promise of an afterlife and be content with the life now?

On the other hand, what if I'm wrong and Islam is right, for example? I have no real way of knowing that. There is a book called the Qu'ran that claims that Allah is God and Mohammed is His Prophet. But I am so unfamiliar with that religion and it's cultural construct that even to begin to think about changing to Islam would be so foreign to me that I don't even know if I would be comfortable with it.

And that is the thing that I realize when it comes to Christianity. That even if I were to go into all the world and preach the gospel, I'm going to run into people from other faiths who feel the same way about Christianity. The best I can do is give testamony of what Christ has meant in my own life. If that doesn't appeal to them, then the only thing I could say is to seek God where they are. Quite frankly, I don't see how God could fault someone for just happening to be born under the wrong sign. But I do think there is an universal internal mechanism to lead one to God, despite one's beliefs, that God will hold us accountable to. It is within the realm of conscience between what is right and what is wrong that if one would objectively examine oneself will discover that still small voice of conviction toward the right path. Just IMHO.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Dondi

But I am so unfamiliar with that religion and it's cultural construct that even to begin to think about changing to Islam would be so foreign to me that I don't even know if I would be comfortable with it.

But -what if- it was the truth? Would it matter that it was foreign?

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

But -what if- it was the truth? Would it matter that it was foreign?

All I'm saying is that at this particular moment, I do not feel compelled toward Islam, or any other faith, for I have a peace and contentment in what I already have. Even if I'm wrong about Christianity, I feel no condemnation because I believe I'm following a path that God is pleased with. My conscience doesn't condemn me, unless I've made some moral grievious error. I am guided (or at least try to live) by the principle Two Commandments: Love God and Love thy neighbor, which I believe transcends even the Christian religion in regards to living as God wants us to live. Surely this is most basic in the Abrahamic religions. But even the second commandment of Love thy neighbor must form the basis of non-Abrahamic religions, so you can't go wrong there, I should think.

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by Dondi

(snip)
On the other hand, what if I'm wrong and Islam is right, for example? I have no real way of knowing that. There is a book called the Qu'ran that claims that Allah is God and Mohammed is His Prophet. But I am so unfamiliar with that religion and it's cultural construct that even to begin to think about changing to Islam would be so foreign to me that I don't even know if I would be comfortable with it.

And that is the thing that I realize when it comes to Christianity. That even if I were to go into all the world and preach the gospel, I'm going to run into people from other faiths who feel the same way about Christianity. The best I can do is give testamony of what Christ has meant in my own life. If that doesn't appeal to them, then the only thing I could say is to seek God where they are. Quite frankly, I don't see how God could fault someone for just happening to be born under the wrong sign. But I do think there is an universal internal mechanism to lead one to God, despite one's beliefs, that God will hold us accountable to. It is within the realm of conscience between what is right and what is wrong that if one would objectively examine oneself will discover that still small voice of conviction toward the right path. Just IMHO.

Hi Dondi,
Just some more thoughts....
It seems to me that the word Allah is just the Muslim name for God. It doesn't signify a different God. Each of us has our own conditioned concept of God and though particulars or our current understanding may be different and some religions may apply a different name, the declarations remain in common between religions declaring One God. Most if not all recognize God as creator and source of our life and the world around us. So in effect, one might say we all worship the same God but we apply our own cultural colors and dogma to Him according to our claimed religion.

It seems to me that to create a 'them' and an 'us' in any religion is a color that leads to separation rather than unity. Obviously, there is only One creator of ALL and therefor separation is of man and not of God.

I agree with you that there is indeed one "universal internal mechanism" so to speak that draws all men to God in time regardless of their religion.

Love and Peace,
JM

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by JosephM

Hi Dondi,
Just some more thoughts....
It seems to me that the word Allah is just the Muslim name for God. It doesn't signify a different God. Each of us has our own conditioned concept of God and though particulars or our current understanding may be different and some religions may apply a different name, the declarations remain in common between religions declaring One God. Most if not all recognize God as creator and source of our life and the world around us. So in effect, one might say we all worship the same God but we apply our own cultural colors and dogma to Him according to our claimed religion.

It seems to me that to create a 'them' and an 'us' in any religion is a color that leads to separation rather than unity. Obviously, there is only One creator of ALL and therefor separation is of man and not of God.

I agree with you that there is indeed one "universal internal mechanism" so to speak that draws all men to God in time regardless of their religion.

Love and Peace,
JM

I am aware that Allah is the Muslim name for God. But for Islam, it seems highly important to distinguish that name in association with Mohammed as the definitive prophet and the idea of Allah as portrayed in the Qu'ran. Certainly, there are similarities in the description of the Qu'ran idea of God in comparision with the OT and NT idea of God, but there are also marked differences. And perhaps is it those kinds of differences as presented in the texts or the intepretation of the texts that tend to separate us. It would be nice to settle on the similarities and call it a day.

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by Dondi

I am aware that Allah is the Muslim name for God. But for Islam, it seems highly important to distinguish that name in association with Mohammed as the definitive prophet and the idea of Allah as portrayed in the Qu'ran. Certainly, there are similarities in the description of the Qu'ran idea of God in comparision with the OT and NT idea of God, but there are also marked differences. And perhaps is it those kinds of differences as presented in the texts or the intepretation of the texts that tend to separate us. It would be nice to settle on the similarities and call it a day.

Yes. I think we can choose to do that and let God settle the differences in our understanding in time.

Love in Christ,
JM

[Snoopy]

and as the great Homer said: What if we're worshipping the wrong God? Every time we go to church we're just making him madder and madder!

s.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

and as the great Homer said: What if we're worshipping the wrong God? Every time we go to church we're just making him madder and madder!

s.

Was that Homer of The Odyssey fame or Homer Simpson?

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Was that Homer of The Odyssey fame or Homer Simpson?

The one that I watch.

s.

[flowperson]

DUH'OH !

flow....

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

What if the religion you follow is wrong?

Excellent question 17th and one I ask myself often. My answer is that if following that religion makes me a better person and there is nothing when I die, then I have at least lived a better life through my belief. If another religion is right and I have chosen the wrong path, I trust that G-d is aware of my intentions and will not punish me for my desire to find Him through Islam (at least I looked).

My heart/gut/inner voice tells me that faith in G-d is not a sedative, although I accept that a degree of 'control the masses' has crept into all religions.

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Why isn't anything/one coming and resting my mind putting me at ease?

Can a test be a test if you are given the answers beforehand? The test is faith, to believe in something you do not have the answers for.

Salaam