What if....

[17th Angel]

What if the religion you follow is wrong? What if your holy book is wrong and X holy book is right? What if none of these holy books/religions/ways are right? What if..... We have no reason, no purpose.... But, to die. I sit here right now, and I am dying... You who are reading this... You also are dying... The sand in your timer slips by, grain by grain and there are only so many grains of sand within it. We cannot pause it, we cannot control it whatsoever. I am getting this feeling like life... Life is like a condition.... You know?... And religion is the sedative.... Given in dose's to ease the pain and make you forget.... To put that false smile on your face as you sit alone in a chair slowly rocking back and forth, back and forth.... Everything is now ok and you feel bliss...... But, your missing the truth and reality.... Like freaking blinkers....

I pondered one night pleading for god to proove that all my what if's are nothing to dwell on, then it made me think..... There is no answer, what if god isn't there... what if it is allah, or some space alien thingy bob.... Or something else that no one has figured.... Or nothing is there? Then looking at the statistics... Of likleyness to be born... That is unreal.... How freaking lucky am I? How lucky are you? We freaking made it... There has to be more than just death... Why isn't anything/one coming and resting my mind putting me at ease? Then I go through the stage of...... Well How unlucky am I? Why did I have to be born? A human... With, adequate... Intelligence.... I have enough to torture myself... I have no freaking idea where I am going with this.......


What if?

[cavalier]

Even if those religions are true, or just one of them, does that really change anything? does it give us purpose or reason?

Religion is a sedative? I might agree with that, mass religion anyway. There are plenty of other sedatives though, jobs, commercialism, repeatedly going out and geting pissed with your mates...

Maybe spirituality though, is what might help us to understand the lack of purpose or reason, that if there is nothing beyond death then that in itself is what is beyond death.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Even if those religions are true, or just one of them, does that really change anything? does it give us purpose or reason?

Sure it does, then there is something that has made you and wishes for you to do something, also they all have a promise of reward, so life isn't the end IF one of these WAS true.

Originally Posted by cavalier

Religion is a sedative? I might agree with that, mass religion anyway. There are plenty of other sedatives though, jobs, commercialism, repeatedly going out and geting pissed with your mates...

Well yeah, that can really depend on the person... I wouldn't see job as a sedative... That is some kind of drug I have a reaction to, and makes the condition called "life" even more unbearable.....

Originally Posted by cavalier

Maybe spirituality though, is what might help us to understand the lack of purpose or reason, that if there is nothing beyond death then that in itself is what is beyond death.

But what spirituality? What's that? Where does it tell you about that... In such and such book? What if that book is a load of bull? And spirituality isn't real. lol... I like that next bit, fancy words If there is nothing beyond death then there is nothing.. IF... If there is that word again....

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Sure it does, then there is something that has made you and wishes for you to do something, also they all have a promise of reward, so life isn't the end IF one of these WAS true.

Ok,so life is prolonged and enhanced, but that doesn't really change our condition

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Well yeah, that can really depend on the person... I wouldn't see job as a sedative... That is some kind of drug I have a reaction to, and makes the condition called "life" even more unbearable.....

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

But what spirituality? What's that? Where does it tell you about that... In such and such book? What if that book is a load of bull? And spirituality isn't real.

I see your gripe, my spirituality or his, and why? I think you're married right?l Why? How did you know which girl?

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

lol... I like that next bit, fancy words If there is nothing beyond death then there is nothing.. IF... If there is that word again....

I glad you appreciate the fanciness.
I did say if a lot, but I'm not going go make any promises.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Ok,so life is prolonged and enhanced, but that doesn't really change our condition

It may do in the long run... I am sure there are many here that are so cock sure of that...

Originally Posted by cavalier

I see your gripe, my spirituality or his, and why? I think you're married right?l Why? How did you know which girl?

Simple, it fitted in with my life.... I guess most religions are like that too crazy...

Originally Posted by cavalier

I glad you appreciate the fanciness.
I did say if a lot, but I'm not going go make any promises.

Keep to [IF]'s they are best...

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

What if the religion you follow is wrong? What if your holy book is wrong and X holy book is right? What if none of these holy books/religions/ways are right?

Don't follow a religion. They all contain errors. So what!
Doesn't change anything.

What if..... We have no reason, no purpose.... But, to die. I sit here right now, and I am dying... You who are reading this... You also are dying... The sand in your timer slips by, grain by grain and there are only so many grains of sand within it. We cannot pause it, we cannot control it whatsoever. I am getting this feeling like life... Life is like a condition.... You know?... And religion is the sedative.... Given in dose's to ease the pain and make you forget.... To put that false smile on your face as you sit alone in a chair slowly rocking back and forth, back and forth.... Everything is now ok and you feel bliss...... But, your missing the truth and reality.... Like freaking blinkers....

So what! Why does it then matter to you? If you have no reason or purpose then you have nothing to be concerned with. Of course we are all dying... That is the nature of things created. Where is your suffering? Is it real or self created? Who is it that suffers? These are good questions for you to enquire of your self.

I pondered one night pleading for god to proove that all my what if's are nothing to dwell on, then it made me think..... There is no answer, what if god isn't there... what if it is allah, or some space alien thingy bob.... Or something else that no one has figured.... Or nothing is there? Then looking at the statistics... Of likleyness to be born... That is unreal.... How freaking lucky am I? How lucky are you? We freaking made it... There has to be more than just death... Why isn't anything/one coming and resting my mind putting me at ease? Then I go through the stage of...... Well How unlucky am I? Why did I have to be born? A human... With, adequate... Intelligence.... I have enough to torture myself... I have no freaking idea where I am going with this.......

Perhaps if you allow the hypothetical 'what ifs' to disappear then reality will show itself? Perhaps there is more than just death. Perhaps there is something coming to you to rest your mind but you are resisting with hypothetical 'what ifs' as you always do as a matter of habit. When YOU are tired of torturing yourself perhaps you will rest in your true nature. Just some thoughts for you to consider.... no more... no less

What if?

"What if?" by definition has no existance in reality...

Love and Peace,
JM

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by JosephM

Don't follow a religion. They all contain errors. So what!
Doesn't change anything.

But... IF one of them is right.. It does change things, changes everything....

Originally Posted by JosephM

So what! Why does it then matter to you? If you have no reason or purpose then you have nothing to be concerned with. Of course we are all dying... That is the nature of things created. Where is your suffering? Is it real or self created? Who is it that suffers? These are good questions for you to enquire of your self.

Of course people have something to be concerned with, they are dying... And hold too much intelligence for their own good... you could for example "take the birds"..... Heh... They obviously have no worry.. No threats or concerns because they are not as high in intelligence as us... Well, most of us..... They and all other animals have no reason to threat... But, we take more value on our material world and life... And want more, expect more....

Where is my suffering? That hasn't come to be yet........

Originally Posted by JosephM

Perhaps if you allow the hypothetical 'what ifs' to disappear then reality will show itself? Perhaps there is more than just death. Perhaps there is something coming to you to rest your mind but you are resisting with hypothetical 'what ifs' as you always do as a matter of habit. When YOU are tired of torturing yourself perhaps you will rest in your true nature. Just some thoughts for you to consider.... no more... no less

Do you still torture yourself? If not, what reality did you find behind the 'what if' problem.... Did something come to ease and rest your mind?

[Paladin]

Hey 17th,
Boy did you open up a can of worms

Can you see the meaning you have attatched to the things you have mentioned? It seems there is meaning in your mind, a mental construct of what death is, and existence, even dualism and non dualism has for you some meaning and all these meanings have to be managed somehow don't they?
What would happen if you chose not to manage them?

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Can you see the meaning you have attatched to the things you have mentioned? It seems there is meaning in your mind, a mental construct of what death is, and existence, even dualism and non dualism has for you some meaning and all these meanings have to be managed somehow don't they?
What would happen if you chose not to manage them?

You tell me, what would happen? lol....

[Paladin]

Why not try it and see what happens?

17th, I have been reading your posts for two years now and find you to be an exceptionally bright and intelligent person, so I won't give you any bull to mull over.
The problem with existence is that it really is all about you. To the degree that "you" or "me" fades into the background things become a little clearer. Nearly every thought that enters the mind carries with it the idea of a "me"
Even the effort at "no-thought" inherently does the same thing. So we are left with all these thoughts, mental constructs, conceptual models that quite effectively insulate us from what is.
As we age, if we are lucky, we get quite a bit stupider, and then we can relax a little realizing that by doing nothing, things still get done.
This is hard to explain in words, especially for me, because I'm getting dumber all the time

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by JosephM

Don't follow a religion. They all contain errors. So what!
Doesn't change anything.

We are the ones who contain errors...

Originally Posted by Paladin

Hey 17th,
Boy did you open up a can of worms

Can you see the meaning you have attatched to the things you have mentioned? It seems there is meaning in your mind, a mental construct of what death is, and existence, even dualism and non dualism has for you some meaning and all these meanings have to be managed somehow don't they?
What would happen if you chose not to manage them?

What? And run around naked without any clothes! I thought only very young children and crazy people did that!

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Why not try it and see what happens?

17th, I have been reading your posts for two years now and find you to be an exceptionally bright and intelligent person, so I won't give you any bull to mull over.
The problem with existence is that it really is all about you. To the degree that "you" or "me" fades into the background things become a little clearer. Nearly every thought that enters the mind carries with it the idea of a "me"
Even the effort at "no-thought" inherently does the same thing. So we are left with all these thoughts, mental constructs, conceptual models that quite effectively insulate us from what is.
As we age, if we are lucky, we get quite a bit stupider, and then we can relax a little realizing that by doing nothing, things still get done.
This is hard to explain in words, especially for me, because I'm getting dumber all the time

No need to trouble yourself to explain it any deeper... I understand what you are trying to say.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

We are the ones who contain errors...

What? And run around naked without any clothes! I thought only very young children and crazy people did that!

Welcome to my world

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

But... IF one of them is right.. It does change things, changes everything....

Perhaps for you my friend. But not for Me.

Of course people have something to be concerned with, they are dying... And hold too much intelligence for their own good... you could for example "take the birds"..... Heh... They obviously have no worry.. No threats or concerns because they are not as high in intelligence as us... Well, most of us..... They and all other animals have no reason to threat... But, we take more value on our material world and life... And want more, expect more....

Where is my suffering? That hasn't come to be yet........

Perhaps it is your intelligence that is the obstacle. Perhaps in reality you are no different than the bird except you allow your 'intelligence' to get in the way. Who is this 'we' that take more value on our material and life? If you are dying anyway... and you know you are temporal in nature.... why put so much value on things?

Do you suffer when you torture yourself? I must have misread you.

Do you still torture yourself? If not, what reality did you find behind the 'what if' problem.... Did something come to ease and rest your mind?

Is there a 'self' to torture? Should 'what if' be a problem for me? It is not a matter of something to come to ease and rest the mind... But rather a surrendering to that which is.... which is a certainty.

Love and Peace,
JM

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

We are the ones who contain errors...

Seattlegal,

Yes, And religion is a concept of man/woman therefor all religions are inherently erroneous to some degree as communicated through the medium of his/her words.

Love and Peace,
JM