What if the Man of Sin is Here?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

...Consider the verse immediately before that .The lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. Just as the presence of the man of lawlessness ,would be over a period of time, Jesus presence would extend for some time and would climax in the destruction of that lawless son of destruction.—2 Thessalonians 2:8. so dont you think that the pagan beliefs that the clergy have promoted ,have decieved many people ,look at the trinity doctrine , talk about deception.hellfire, talk about deception,need i go on . to believe in the trinity is to deny Jesus because it is false, so that would make anyone who takes on the trinity the antichrist as well. it will be plain to see .

so this lawless one is a composite person. they have exchanged the truthes of God for pagan lies, teaching such unscriptual doctrines as Immortality of the human soul, hellfire,purgatory, and the trinity .

Immortality of the human soul:

1 Peter 3:19 This speaks of Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison. Now if a soul is not aware of anything, then Jesus' preaching would be futile.

Isaiah 14:9-11 is pretty specific about the condition of the dead. They are very much aware of what is going on.

Going back to the NT, Paul states that being absent from the body is not to be unconscious, but rather to be home with the Lord. 2 Cor, 5:8 and Phil 1:23.

Matthew states man cannot kill the soul, and John states he saw the souls of those slaughtered, and their crying out in a loud voice for justice. (Rev. 6:9-11). John also points out that the soul does not die with the flesh, those in heaven are able to offer our prayers to God (Rev 5:8), and the souls live in happiness (Rev 14:13). This one justifies one asking those gone before us to intercede in our behalf to God, because it is very Bibllical. And it is in the only book of the Bible that we are warned not to change one word of, nor add to nor take away from...

Hellfire:

If one is in hell, "he shall be tormented with fire and sulfur . . . the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest" (Rev. 14:11). This is an "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41). Jesus tells his listeners of Lazarus and the rich man, where the rich man dies, and is "existing in torment . . . he sees . . . calls out . . . ‘I am in anguish in this blazing fire’" (Luke 16:19-31). As a further illustration, Jesus stated that hell is likened to Gehenna. This "Valley of Hinnom" was located southeast of Jerusalem, and was used as a garbage dump where trash and waste were continuously burned day and night in a large fire. Jesus informs the listeners that hell is like this, "where the maggot does not die, and fire is not put out" (Mark 9:42-48). It is the place where the wicked are sent, and from this "everlasting fire" (Matt. 18:8) will come "weeping and the gnashing of teeth" (Matt. 8:12). Lastly, Revelation 20 calls hell a "pool of fire . . . they will be tormented day and night, forever and ever"—all who are not in the book of life. So, if one’s name is in the book of life, one enters heaven (Rev. 21:27). If it not in the book, then a literal hell awaits.

Purgatory:

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.

Trinity:

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

The parallelism of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is not unique to Matthew’s Gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., 2 Cor. 13:14, Heb. 9:14), as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do today—that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).

It is also clearly alluded to in the first paragraphs of Genesis, as well as John.

While the Holy Sprit hovered over the waters, God said...and then let us make man in our image and likeness. John states that in the beginning was the word. and the word was in him and with him...and the world new him not.

There is nothing pagan or unscriptural about these four concepts. People simply decide to except them or not. However, the only important (eternal wise) issue is that we confess and accept Jesus as our personal savior (accept Jesus is the key phrase).

The Bible, I might add also specifically instructs us not to worry about end times (do not commit the sin of worrying, over something we have no control over).

As a good friend of mine once said (a muslim none the less), "We should be more concerned with watching out for each other's well being, than the end of the world to come...it will get here when it get's here. Right now we have life to contend with...let's make a good one shall we?"

Wise man.

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

In short no, You are alluding that others than yourself are taking on Pagan beliefs.


q

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Immortality of the human soul:

1 Peter 3:19 This speaks of Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison. Now if a soul is not aware of anything, then Jesus' preaching would be futile.

Isaiah 14:9-11 is pretty specific about the condition of the dead. They are very much aware of what is going on.

Going back to the NT, Paul states that being absent from the body is not to be unconscious, but rather to be home with the Lord. 2 Cor, 5:8 and Phil 1:23.

Matthew states man cannot kill the soul, and John states he saw the souls of those slaughtered, and their crying out in a loud voice for justice. (Rev. 6:9-11). John also points out that the soul does not die with the flesh, those in heaven are able to offer our prayers to God (Rev 5:8), and the souls live in happiness (Rev 14:13). This one justifies one asking those gone before us to intercede in our behalf to God, because it is very Bibllical. And it is in the only book of the Bible that we are warned not to change one word of, nor add to nor take away from...

Hellfire:

If one is in hell, "he shall be tormented with fire and sulfur . . . the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest" (Rev. 14:11). This is an "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41). Jesus tells his listeners of Lazarus and the rich man, where the rich man dies, and is "existing in torment . . . he sees . . . calls out . . . ‘I am in anguish in this blazing fire’" (Luke 16:19-31). As a further illustration, Jesus stated that hell is likened to Gehenna. This "Valley of Hinnom" was located southeast of Jerusalem, and was used as a garbage dump where trash and waste were continuously burned day and night in a large fire. Jesus informs the listeners that hell is like this, "where the maggot does not die, and fire is not put out" (Mark 9:42-48). It is the place where the wicked are sent, and from this "everlasting fire" (Matt. 18:8) will come "weeping and the gnashing of teeth" (Matt. 8:12). Lastly, Revelation 20 calls hell a "pool of fire . . . they will be tormented day and night, forever and ever"—all who are not in the book of life. So, if one’s name is in the book of life, one enters heaven (Rev. 21:27). If it not in the book, then a literal hell awaits.

Purgatory:

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.

Trinity:

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

The parallelism of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is not unique to Matthew’s Gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., 2 Cor. 13:14, Heb. 9:14), as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do today—that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).

It is also clearly alluded to in the first paragraphs of Genesis, as well as John.

While the Holy Sprit hovered over the waters, God said...and then let us make man in our image and likeness. John states that in the beginning was the word. and the word was in him and with him...and the world new him not.

There is nothing pagan or unscriptural about these four concepts. People simply decide to except them or not. However, the only important (eternal wise) issue is that we confess and accept Jesus as our personal savior (accept Jesus is the key phrase).

The Bible, I might add also specifically instructs us not to worry about end times (do not commit the sin of worrying, over something we have no control over).

As a good friend of mine once said (a muslim none the less), "We should be more concerned with watching out for each other's well being, than the end of the world to come...it will get here when it get's here. Right now we have life to contend with...let's make a good one shall we?"

Wise man.

v/r

Q

yes you are right , when you say that people decide weather to except these beliefs or not., many people do . jesus himself said that accurate knowledge leads to everlasting life ,,,,john 17;3 which seems to me that there would also be inaccurate knowledge around. many people are decieved by false knowledge. at the end of the day, when a person has accurate knowledge the false is plain to see . yes, we do have a life to live in line with what jesus said ,which was KEEP ON THE WATCH .the end of the world means the end of the system of things ,and true christians will aways be keeping on the watch , not going to sleep as some have . that is why they have forgotten to keep on the watch, because they have been misled by false doctrines.that push the wonderful hope about Gods kingdom Goverment into the back ground. but true christians never forget the work that Jesus left them to do matt 24;14 what a wonderful hope the kingdom of god holds out for the earth .even ressurection into a paradise earth . but that is for another thread.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

In short no, You are alluding that others than yourself are taking on Pagan beliefs.


q

well the question is, have others taken on these pagan beliefs ?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

yes you are right , when you say that people decide weather to except these beliefs or not., many people do . jesus himself said that accurate knowledge leads to everlasting life ,,,,john 17;3 which seems to me that there would also be inaccurate knowledge around. many people are decieved by false knowledge. at the end of the day, when a person has accurate knowledge the false is plain to see . yes, we do have a life to live in line with what jesus said ,which was KEEP ON THE WATCH .the end of the world means the end of the system of things ,and true christians will aways be keeping on the watch , not going to sleep as some have . that is why they have forgotten to keep on the watch, because they have been misled by false doctrines.that push the wonderful hope about Gods kingdom Goverment into the back ground. but true christians never forget the work that Jesus left them to do matt 24;14 what a wonderful hope the kingdom of god holds out for the earth .even ressurection into a paradise earth . but that is for another thread.

Everything I explained is specifically backed by scripture. So unless the inference is that scripture is false, then the four points we're discussing must be correct and valid. If the arguement becomes that one misinterprets the scripture, then the other can be presumed to do the same. If the contention is that one set of scriptures are corrupt and the other's is incorrupt, then the question becomes which is which, and who has the authority to determine thus? If one decries their leadership or unitary concensus is the authority, and the other rebuffs that theirs is, then we are back to square one...this is what is called "diggin' in the weeds" or going around in circles.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

well the question is, have others taken on these pagan beliefs ?

Originally Posted by mee

so are you saying that the catholics are the only ones that have taken on pagan beliefs?

I believe that was the original question...and the anwer is that they are not pagan beliefs. They are scripturally sound and valid, just not followed by everyone. That does not mean others are in sin because they do not follow them, just that sometime in their particular faith's past, they chose to stop following them.

Again, the only thing that is important to Christians (the only thing that matters), is their acceptance of Jesus as savior (personal savior). Everything else is icing on the cake.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Everything I explained is specifically backed by scripture. So unless the inference is that scripture is false, then the four points we're discussing must be correct and valid. If the arguement becomes that one misinterprets the scripture, then the other can be presumed to do the same. If the contention is that one set of scriptures are corrupt and the other's is incorrupt, then the question becomes which is which, and who has the authority to determine thus? If one decries their leadership or unitary concensus is the authority, and the other rebuffs that theirs is, then we are back to square one...this is what is called "diggin' in the weeds" or going around in circles.

the accurate knowledge makes a difference to our understanding of the scriptures for instance you mentioned 1 peter 3;19and implied that the spirits here mentioned were the spirits of human beings but according to the bible these spirits are the disobediant angels that rebelled against God .
1Pe 3:19; 2Pe 2:4; Jude 6...............regarding Isaiah 14;9-11

What a powerful poetic image! It is as if the common grave of mankind were to wake up all those kings who preceded the Babylonian dynasty into death so that they can greet the newcomer

So astonishing is the fall of Babylon that the grave itself reacts: "Even Sheol underneath has become agitated at you in order to meet you on coming in. At you it has awakened those impotent in death, all the goatlike leaders of the earth. It has made all the kings of the nations get up from their thrones. so accurate knowledge does make a difference. also 2 corinthians is not talking about the imortality of the human soul it is talking about the new imortal incoruptable spirit body

Though living on earth in a mortal, fleshly body, Christians who have the spirit as a token of coming heavenly life look forward to "a building from God," an immortal, incorruptible spirit body. (1 Corinthians 15:50-53) Like Paul, they can earnestly say: "We are of good courage and are well pleased rather to become absent from the [human] body and to make our home [in heaven] with the Lord."—2 Corinthians 5:8 so this is a new spirit body

Paul said that the hope common to anointed Christians was to inherit a heavenly dwelling. This would come about, not through some presumed immortality of the soul, but through a resurrection during Christ’s presence. (1 Corinthians 15:23, 42-44 so scripture is not wrong but inaccurate knowledge is.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

the accurate knowledge makes a difference to our understanding of the scriptures for instance you mentioned 1 peter 3;19and implied that the spirits here mentioned were the spirits of human beings but according to the bible these spirits are the disobediant angels that rebelled against God .
1Pe 3:19; 2Pe 2:4; Jude 6...............regarding Isaiah 14;9-11

What a powerful poetic image! It is as if the common grave of mankind were to wake up all those kings who preceded the Babylonian dynasty into death so that they can greet the newcomer

So astonishing is the fall of Babylon that the grave itself reacts: "Even Sheol underneath has become agitated at you in order to meet you on coming in. At you it has awakened those impotent in death, all the goatlike leaders of the earth. It has made all the kings of the nations get up from their thrones. so accurate knowledge does make a difference. also 2 corinthians is not talking about the imortality of the human soul it is talking about the new imortal incoruptable spirit body

Though living on earth in a mortal, fleshly body, Christians who have the spirit as a token of coming heavenly life look forward to "a building from God," an immortal, incorruptible spirit body. (1 Corinthians 15:50-53) Like Paul, they can earnestly say: "We are of good courage and are well pleased rather to become absent from the [human] body and to make our home [in heaven] with the Lord."—2 Corinthians 5:8 so this is a new spirit body

Paul said that the hope common to anointed Christians was to inherit a heavenly dwelling. This would come about, not through some presumed immortality of the soul, but through a resurrection during Christ’s presence. (1 Corinthians 15:23, 42-44 so scripture is not wrong but inaccurate knowledge is.

Or one's interpretation of it.

My soul is immortal, and the Bible makes it quite clear. Jesus would not waste His time "preaching" to fallen angels that can never be redeemed. He went to redeem those (faithful humans) to Him who died before Him. They were eyeing Jesus with a steady gaze, when He approached them. As is promised in the OT, Jesus took them out of that place, and placed them in Heaven, or their place of true reward. He fulfilled the promises made by the OT prophets.

Going back to my original post, I find nothing contradictory with the passages and the concept of the soul being immortal.

v/r

Q

[mee]

Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar´ta·rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment 2 peter 2;4

In this [state] also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, 1 peter 3;19

What

was the objective of Jesus’ preaching "to the spirits in prison"?

At 1 Peter 3:19, 20, after describing Jesus’ resurrection to spirit life, the apostle says: "In this state also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed." Commenting on this text, Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words says: "In I Pet. 3:19 the probable reference is, not to glad tidings (which there is no real evidence that Noah preached, nor is there evidence that the spirits of antediluvian people are actually ‘in prison’), but to the act of Christ after His resurrection in proclaiming His victory to fallen angelic spirits." (1981, Vol. 3, p. 201) As has been noted, ke·rys´so refers to a proclamation that may be not only of something good but also of something bad, as when Jonah proclaimed Nineveh’s coming destruction. The only imprisoned spirits referred to in the Scriptures are those angels of Noah’s day who were ‘delivered into pits of dense darkness’ (2Pe 2:4, 5) and "reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day." (Jude 6) Therefore the preaching by the resurrected Jesus to such unrighteous angels could only have been a preaching of judgment. It may be noted that the book of Revelation transmitted in vision to John by Christ Jesus toward the close of the first century C.E. contains much about Satan the Devil and his demons as well as their ultimate destruction, hence, a preaching of judgment. (Re 12-20) Peter’s use of the past tense ("preached") indicates that such preaching had been done prior to the writing of his first letter.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar´ta·rus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment 2 peter 2;4
In this [state] also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, 1 peter 3;19

What

was the objective of Jesus’ preaching "to the spirits in prison"?

At 1 Peter 3:19, 20, after describing Jesus’ resurrection to spirit life, the apostle says: "In this state also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed." Commenting on this text, Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words says: "In I Pet. 3:19 the probable reference is, not to glad tidings (which there is no real evidence that Noah preached, nor is there evidence that the spirits of antediluvian people are actually ‘in prison’), but to the act of Christ after His resurrection in proclaiming His victory to fallen angelic spirits." (1981, Vol. 3, p. 201) As has been noted, ke·rys´so refers to a proclamation that may be not only of something good but also of something bad, as when Jonah proclaimed Nineveh’s coming destruction. The only imprisoned spirits referred to in the Scriptures are those angels of Noah’s day who were ‘delivered into pits of dense darkness’ (2Pe 2:4, 5) and "reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day." (Jude 6) Therefore the preaching by the resurrected Jesus to such unrighteous angels could only have been a preaching of judgment. It may be noted that the book of Revelation transmitted in vision to John by Christ Jesus toward the close of the first century C.E. contains much about Satan the Devil and his demons as well as their ultimate destruction, hence, a preaching of judgment. (Re 12-20) Peter’s use of the past tense ("preached") indicates that such preaching had been done prior to the writing of his first letter.

A judge does not preach to the condemned. A judge sentences the condemned. Jesus was not judge at this time (He said so). Preaching to those who know they are condemned and will be given no quarter, is futility at work. If you are implying that Jesus went to "gloat" over the fallen ones, then Jesus would not be the savior we believe Him to be. Also it would be a bad example for us to follow (let alone observe).

Jesus went to notify the ones awaiting His return that He in fact returned (prophecy fulfilled). And He brought them out of that place...(prophecy fulfilled).

[mee]

you are right to say that jesus did not go to gloat ,he went to inform them that prophecy was fullfilled that is why they now know that they have a short period of time left before they are destroyed for ever and they shudder about this as well

On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time...rev 12;12

(Romans 16:20) For his part, the God who gives peace will crush Satan under YOUR feet shortly. May the undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus be with YOU.

They were debased, put under restraint and deprived of additional divine enlightenment. This situation is spoken of figuratively at Jude 6: "The angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day."

Thus these unfaithful angels were expelled from God’s family of loyal spirit creatures. Neither they nor their ruler, Satan, continued residing with Jehovah God in the manner that they had enjoyed as his obedient sons. Though having access to the heavenly realm, they were now outcasts.....but after the war in heaven they were out of the heavens for good and thrown down here.no wonder they shudder they know whats coming to them

You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder....james 2;19
The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture."—The Jewish Encyclopedia (1910), Vol. VI, p. 564.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

you are right to say that jesus did not go to gloat ,he went to inform them that prophecy was fullfilled that is why they now know that they have a short period of time left before they are destroyed for ever and they shudder about this as well

On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time...rev 12;12

(Romans 16:20) For his part, the God who gives peace will crush Satan under YOUR feet shortly. May the undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus be with YOU.

They were debased, put under restraint and deprived of additional divine enlightenment. This situation is spoken of figuratively at Jude 6: "The angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day."

Thus these unfaithful angels were expelled from God’s family of loyal spirit creatures. Neither they nor their ruler, Satan, continued residing with Jehovah God in the manner that they had enjoyed as his obedient sons. Though having access to the heavenly realm, they were now outcasts.....but after the war in heaven they were out of the heavens for good and thrown down here.no wonder they shudder they know whats coming to them

You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder....james 2;19
The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture."—The Jewish Encyclopedia (1910), Vol. VI, p. 564.

Are you saying (no aggression here), that some of the fallen angels are in prison while others are free to roam the earth? I mean, Lucifer roams the earth like Lion, finding who he can tear to shreds. Demons roam the earth to and fro, disrupting who and what they can...

So why would some fallen angels be in prison while the rest of Lucifer's minoins be free?

Second, the Jewish encyclopedia is a bit limited, when it comes to the New Testement and Christian beliefs...don't you think? The Jewish people don't recognise Jesus. Hell, even the Muslims give Jesus more credit than the Jewish folk?!

Mee, please, you got to come up with something better. It smacks of contridiction, to the majority of Christian faith!

I'm sorry. "I'm from Missouri..."

v/r

Q

[mee]

i think it has a lot to do with the correct understanding about this word tatarus.the debased condition represented by tatarus should not beconfused with the abyss into which satan and his demons are eventuallyto be cast for the thousandyears of christs rule rev 20 1-3 the disabedient angelswere cast into tatarus in noahs day.1 peter 3;20but many years laterwe find themsaying to jesus not to order them to go away into the abyss luke8;26-31

The word "Tartarus" is also used in pre-Christian heathen mythologies. In Homer’s Iliad this mythological Tartarus is represented as an underground prison ‘as far below Hades as earth is below heaven.’ In it were imprisoned the lesser gods, Cronus and the other Titan spirits. the Tartarus of the Bible is not a place but a condition and, therefore, is not the same as this Tartarus of Greek mythology. However, it is worth noting that the mythological Tartarus was presented not as a place for humans but as a place for superhuman creatures. So, in that regard there is a similarity, since the Scriptural Tartarus is clearly not for the detention of human souls (compare Mt 11:23) but is only for wicked superhuman spirits who are rebels against God.

The condition of utter debasement represented by Tartarus is a precursor of the abyssing that Satan and his demons are to experience prior to the start of the Thousand Year Reign of Christ. This, in turn, is to be followed after the end of the thousand years by their utter destruction in "the second death."—Mt 25:41; Re 20:1-3, 7-10, 14so it is a condition not a place .so before they were cast out of heaven for good they went to and fro, heaven and earth ,but now they are not allowed back in the heavens since the battle in heaven when he was cast down here
The dense darkness similarly is not literally a lack of light but results from their being cut off from illumination by God as renegades and outcasts from his family, with only a dark outlook as to their eternal destiny.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

i think it has a lot to do with the correct understanding about this word tatarus.the debased condition represented by tatarus should not beconfused with the abyss into which satan and his demons are eventuallyto be cast for the thousandyears of christs rule rev 20 1-3 the disabedient angelswere cast into tatarus in noahs day.1 peter 3;20but many years laterwe find themsaying to jesus not to order them to go away into the abyss luke8;26-31

I'm afraid this flies in the face of Genesis. The Nephilim are the roaming demons. The fallen angels would need no preaching. Their request that they not be thrown into the abyss is mute. Jesus telling them prophecy was fulfilled is mute.

When they fell, their fate was sealed, and they knew it then and know it now. They had full knowledge of the Glory and purpose of God, yet the rejected it. Man's saving grace (besides Jesus), is that we did not and do not have full knowledge of the Glory and purpose of God. We are redeemable because of that ignorance ("Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do").

When you say that Jesus went to "preach" in Taturus to the spirits in prison...what is the Greek/Hebrew/Latin word being used in the context? That will clear things up on this issue in a NewYork second.

v/r

Q

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I'm afraid this flies in the face of Genesis. The Nephilim are the roaming demons. The fallen angels would need no preaching. Their request that they not be thrown into the abyss is mute. Jesus telling them prophecy was fulfilled is mute.

When they fell, their fate was sealed, and they knew it then and know it now. They had full knowledge of the Glory and purpose of God, yet the rejected it. Man's saving grace (besides Jesus), is that we did not and do not have full knowledge of the Glory and purpose of God. We are redeemable because of that ignorance ("Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do").

When you say that Jesus went to "preach" in Taturus to the spirits in prison...what is the Greek/Hebrew/Latin word being used in the context? That will clear things up on this issue in a NewYork second.

v/r

Q

the nephilin died in the flood ,they were the offspring of the fallen angels.but the fallen angels went back to the heavens. and yes they did go to and fro heaven and earth ,but now since they were cast out of heaven for good they are here all the time, know wonder condtions are bad on the earth they have a great influence. i found this information about this word (preached ) at 1 peter 3;19in the footnote
Or, "heralded." Gr., e·ke´ry·xen; Lat., prae·di·ca´vit. Compare Da 5:29 ftn, "Heralded............

At that time Bel·shaz´zar commanded, and they clothed Daniel with purple, with a necklace of gold about his neck; and they (heralded )concerning him that he was to become the third ruler in the kingdom dan5;29..........so i would think it was a proclamation

Ke·rys´so, in general, means "proclaim" (good or bad news), as distinguished from eu·ag·ge·li´zo·mai, "declare good news." Noah was a preacher (or herald, ke´ryx) to the antediluvian world, warning them. (2Pe 2:5) Christ preached (like a herald) to the spirits in prison, but not the good news.—1Pe 3:18, 19