What is a "religion"?

[Baud]

Don't worry, Brian, I didn't think otherwise. I just provided an answer to your (very valid) argument.

The concept of the religion as a world view is certenly interesting, mostly considering how difficult it is to actually apprehend or comprehend deity.

Baud

[Thomas]

Just a quick point -

The word religion comes from the latin verb 'legio' - to tie.

The prefix 're' implies to re-tie.

So the aim of religion is to retie man to God, or reinstate the direct connection between man and God - all religions having some notion of a 'fall' or a currrent condition less than man's universal or primordial state.

Notably eastern traditions, those that uphold the idea of cosmic cycles, all say that man is gradually moving away from this perfect state (as opposed to the western secular notion of 'progress')

Thus the more recent religions are morer dogmatic than their forebears because man has sunk deeper into ignorance and illusion.

Islam, the youngest, means Submission to the Will of God.

[Baud]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Just a quick point: The word religion comes from the latin verb 'legio' - to tie. The prefix 're' implies to re-tie. So the aim of religion is to retie man to God (...)

This argument would work quite well in English, French, Spanish and the other language that use the Latin base for the word "religion". In Dutch/Flemish, "religion" is "godsdienst" which means "the service of god". I have also read that the etimological root of "religion" comes through French from the verb "religare" that means "to tie fast or strongly". However, I am certainly not an expert.

Originally Posted by Thomas

(...) all religions having some notion of a 'fall' or a currrent condition less than man's universal or primordial state. (...)

I cannot speak for others, but the Neo-Pagan religions that I know of (e.g. Wicca) have no notion of 'fall' - on the contrary.

Baud

[I, Brian]

It does seem that there is a semantic basis for using a definition of "religion" to equate between man and God in some proactive sense.

Which harks to my earlier concern that Atheism cannot form the basis of a "religion". Certainly Atheism can be referenced as a belief system - even organised to some degree - and of course, a world view. Yet if God is negated there is no human-Divine dynamic to focus on. This is made especially acute when a lot of Atheism is simply reactionary against Christianity.

[littlemissattitude]

Interesting thread. However, I'm not going to even try to set a defintion for religion. I took a Psychology of Religion class a couple of years ago; in that class we spent two weeks trying to define a) religion, and b) psychology. We never did come up with a satisfactory defintion for either of them. Especially in the case of religion, people have been trying to come up with a definition that satisfies everyone for longer than any of us have been around, and nobody has managed the trick yet.

As far as whether atheism is a religion or not - I have thought at different times that it is and that it isn't. I do think it takes as much of an act of faith to believe in no God or gods as it does to believe in a God or gods. But because most of the leading definitions of religion hold that for something to be a religion it must have some sort of conception of a higher being or deity (and again, this butts up against the problem of Buddhism), I have to honor the insistence of most athiests that their belief system is not a religion. Although, to be perfectly honest, I've met a few athiests who are just as dogmatic as the most dogmatic believer in God.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

you know... depending on the school of Buddhism that you practice, there are, in fact, higher beings that can be worshipped. for instance, the Pure Land school of Mahayana Buddhism worships the Buddha Amida (Boundless Light), as Amida has said that if one generates faith in Her then She will ensure that they are reborn in Her pure land (hence the english name of the school) where they will be sure to progress to swift and complete enlightenment.

in my opinion.. if one considers themselves part of a religion, then i would have no argument with them. if one considered themselves part of a group of individuals that weren't a religion, then i'd have no argument with them either.

if a religion can be based on a lack of knowledge (and really.. aren't most?) then an atheist type person could be a religious type person. it would, in my mind, depend on how they viewed themself.

[Susma Rio Sep]

For me religion is a human behavior founded upon a belief in an unknown power resulting in affection and action intended by the believer to influence the unknown power to react favorably to himself.

I have a problem here with Buddhism. On the masses level it is certainly a religion, because the followers fulfil all my elements of religion as stated in my definition.

It is with the ideologues or intellectuals who practice Buddhism that I seem to see a denial of the element of belief in an unknown power, and relating to it on the basis of affection and action for eliciting a favorable reaction from it.

Students of religion should really investigate the practice of Buddhism by such adherents, and discern whether the elements they deny are in fact present.

I suspect they are present. But I have to talk with such Buddhism enthusiasts who practice the tenets of Buddhism, to learn from them exactly what they intend to achieve with Buddhism.

That is why I asked in another thread what Buddhists are praying for or meditating on or about, and thinking of achieving thereby.

Hope some Buddhists will enlighten me here.

Susma Rio Sep

[emong]

Why do you look at religious practice as the attainment of something?
As has been stated before, by persons much more knowledgable than myself, there are many schools of Buddhist practice. But even a brief definition, which has been presented elsewhere in another thread would show you that Buddhism is not a religion.

To be brief and susinct: It is a means to knowing who you are, by self reflection.

It doesn't fit your critiria at all.

We do not pray to Buddha, nor do we believe he is or was anyone special.
There is no Buddha in the sense of a god. We do not try to please Buddha. We do not even think of Buddha when in meditation practice.
We are all Buddha. We are born Buddha, and spend the rest of our lives returning to Buddha.

You keep questioning things that have already been explained....do you think we will suddenly change our minds and agree with you?

[mikie8]

Another great thread with many intresting points .

This suffering thing dont hold with me as it could be said "if no god , then why dont man live in a natrual order like beasts ?". Some of the oldest beliefs is based on the reason we suffer and if we worship god suffering will seace .


i see Atheism as a philosophy but buddhism as a religion .

My reasonings are simular as oden's "Religion is a communications system that is constituted by supernatural beings and is related to specific patterns of behavior." (tnx baud)
Religion seems to me to couple the thought/belief with the pratice/action . i dont adhere to the belief that aliens (?) are supernatual , if they do exsist then why or how are they supernatrual ?

The question of buddhism is a little more complex as buddha was a man . All men can attain buddha or become buddha , So this potential being , or the potential of the being , is this not a supernatural being , as this being does not exsist , well not yet anyway .
/\ clarfication probally needed from a buddhist /\

what then is a supernatural being ?

Language is such a tounge twister

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

it seems to me that there is a fundamental misconception regarding Buddhism and Guatama (the hisotrical Buddha).

there is nothing to attain, no goal, no achievement. you do not become a Buddha. you already ARE a Buddha. however, due to emotional conditioning and defilments, you cannot realize it.

As Dogen says... To study Buddhism is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be enlightened by all things. To be enlightened by all things is to drop off our own body and mind, and to drop off the bodies and minds of others. No trace of enlightenment remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly.

those in the west seem to be asking "what do you get out of practicing Buddhism" which represents a fundamental flaw in understanding what Buddhism is about. it is not about what i get out of it for Buddhism teaches that there is no "I" that could gain from the teachings.

[Susma Rio Sep]

We do not pray to Buddha, nor do we believe he is or was anyone special.

There are all kinds of monumental structures, buildings and statues, and art works associated to say the least with Buddha if not depicting Buddha himself. He must be someone special.

You keep questioning things that have already been explained....do you think we will suddenly change our minds and agree with you?

If you were not now Buddhists or practitioners of Buddhism, when you die wll you get to where you are going to as Buddhism adherents?

If your being Buddhists is not to achieve anything that's not achievable in not being Buddhists, why bother being converted or being enthusiasts of Buddhism.

I am not trying to make you agree with me. I want to find out what exactly you are aspiring after if anything at all, and how.

I have this habit of asking questions until I am satisfied that that's the way things are. For example, I used to ask a lot of questions about sex, but now no longer; because I have come to know that the things about sex are the way things are. It's up to us to change them if we don't feel happy about them.

In Buddhism I have not yet reached that state of inquiry where I am already at rest; but with Christianity, and Islam, and Judaism, I have arrived at that state or stage wherein I find an intellectual rest: meaning that I have realized what Christians and Muslims and Jews are all about; even though I don't see their logic and reason to be acceptable -- in my own appreciation of life and how to live it.

"Buddha Bless You."

I believe I have heard that invocation uttered by Buddhists.

Do you disown such an invocation?

Susma Rio Sep

[Susma Rio Sep]

(If this message and its relay here is out of bounds, please delete it. But I still can't find any button for new thread, except in the page of private messages.)

Thread of david:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/...read.php?t=441

Quote:
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Originally Posted by David

From what I understand, it is the most widespread of the world's religions, after Christianity, and is also rapidly growing with around 6 million adherents worldwide.
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I don't know that. Have you any statistics of how many and where they are concentrated, adherents of the of Baha'i religion.

As a major in comparative religion, what is your own very personal definition of religion founded upon factual considerations?

I have this definition from my own observations:
Quote:
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A human behavior founded upon a belief in an unknown power resulting in affection and action intended by the believer to influence the unknown power to react favorably to himself.
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I seem to see after reading reactions to my definition that there might be a religion which does not look forward to anything of advantage to the practitioner or adherent or profess-or, like the Buddists(?).

But the way I see it, the masses of Buddhists validate my definition of religion. It is with the ideologues-doctrinaires-intellectuals-elites-spokesmen who appear not to. But I suspect they too are within my definition, if they would analyze themselves to determine exactly what they expect or hope to achieve with their practice of Buddhism.

Yet, they might just be enthusiasts of a philosophical lifestyle, and nothing more; and they are attached to such a lifestyle and want also to tell people about it and to defend, explain, apologize, etc., in its regard.

Maybe the difference between religion and philosophy as regards the adherence of enthusiasts is the element of attempts at interaction with the unknown power or with an unknown power.

In philosophy the system as an impersonal entity like the mechanics in an automobile; but in religion there is some sort of a personal entity.

This brings in the idea of the impersonal entity that can be reactive or non-reactive, depending upon the right kind of button-pressing by the connoisseurs of such an entity.

Are we talking here about magic?

So, we have philosophy, magic, and religion...?

And in every religion that validates my definition one can find all three of them together; however, the religion proper factor dominates in the religion that is properly contained in my definition.

Susma Rio Sep

Since David must have stopped looking up his thread to attend to respondents to his thread, maybe others in these boards might be interested.

Susma Rio Sep

[Susma Rio Sep]

What kind of people are studying religion?

First. there are those studying religion for apologetics and polemics reasons.

Then there are those studying religion like Martians with light years ahead of earthlings studying the life of earthlings -- from mere intellectual curiosity, like academic interest.

I like to imagine myself to be of the second kind, although I don't pretend to be light years in advance of earthlings' civilization, but just from academic curiosity, like I used to study human sexuality.

So, more and more will I bring in this thread my observations and musings on religion.

Susma Rio Sep

[Susma Rio Sep]

It has come to my attention just now after I was doing a chore for my better half, that there are also students of religion who can study religion from an entrepreneurial spirit, how to go into religion and earn a good living there.

Now back to the study of religion, prescinding for the present from its benefits on the commercial returns of religion.

This is a subject that is easier to study than many other subjects, because the material being dwelled on is human society and the individuals practicing a religion. And they are all around us.

The student himself can also look into himself as an object of his study of religion, whether he be himself a practitioner or not; for in the latter case he is also a member of any society and that is every society at all where religion is an ever present ingredient.

This study is not llke the study of, say, eroticism among whales.

Right off, we can state that religion is a human behavior, just like business, politics, marriage, courtship, commerce, etc.

What exactly is peculiar to this kind of human behavior which we call religion, that makes it distinct from other kinds of human behavior?

Susma Rio Sep

[Susma Rio Sep]

I am a handyman in the house and in the garage. Down the years I have set up a system of putting various bits and pieces of artifacts in distinct containers; like all kinds of nuts and bolts and things that can be screwed on and off in one container or drawer. Then there are the things that can bend like pieces of wire and can be used to fasten other things together. And so on and so forth.

So, we are going to collect all the things that can be put in the basket called religion.

Susma Rio Sep