What is America thinking? - Page 4

Pathless · 08-05-2007, 01:50 AM

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Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Agreed. Another example has to be the media. Look at the publicity given to Paris Hilton for going to jail for a few days, yet at the same time that was happening how many people were dying needlessly in the world? Really, do we care more about what Victoria Beckham is wearing than how to find peace in the Middle East or how to stop the effects of global warming flooding India????? Ooooo it makes me so mad.

Oh yes... sadly I am right there next to you, gritting my teeth, pumping my fist in the air.

I can't watch TV anymore. I haven't in years. My nervous system cringes and rebels too much, and I get pissed at what passes for news.

cyberpi · 08-05-2007, 03:43 PM

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Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I am not a follower of US politics so was hoping people could enlighten me on America's thinking.

Just heard on the news that US has pledged millions and millions of dollars to update the military weaponary of Israel and Egypt. These two countries hate each other with avengence, they are also very close to Iran, who already believes US is trying to provoke them into war. Why are they doing this? Is this about oil again or just hoping the Middle East will blow itself off the map? Is American Foreign Policy really this short sighted? Have I missed something?

Sure, if you can enlighten me on the politics and thinking of the Egyptian or Saudi Arabian who desires to purchase the weapons. That is where the demand is. Why do the Egyptian people or Saudi Arabian people want weaponry? My point is, the average Egyptian citizen or average Saudi Arabian citizen has GREATER power over their country in controlling the purchase of any single weapon... than the average American citizen has in preventing the sale of any weapon. Why do you look to the American for a demand that originates in the ME?

In America, I can no more control or influence the person who wants to shoot himself full of drugs and I can no more control or influence the Afghani or South American who will stop at nothing to grow and import them into the USA... I can no more control or influence that sale and use than I can control the purchase of weapons by Middle Eastern governments or by the Middle Eastern people OR to control or influence the sale of them by the US government or US people.

So, do you think the US government has any control or influence? Does the USA have control or influence over a people who want the weapons in the first place because they feel that they need to protect their control and influence with their neighbors? The US government has less control over any situation today outside of its borders than it did prior to 9/11. Far less control. As relations with the USA have deterioated, Saudi Arabia for example looks to improving foreign relations with Pakistan who already has nuclear weapons. What can the USA do? China has an interest in the world's oil and has shown that it is happy to make friends with the KSA and Iran by supplying missiles. Who needs the USA? This show in the Middle East progresses with or without the US government. If you want a weapon... Europe, Russia, China, the local Black market... plenty of people are around that are more than willing to supply you with a weapon. In Iraq it is typically NOT US weaponry that the US government is confronted with... it is Russian, French, or Iranian for example. If the US government could control the situation, then what method is available to control and prevent a ME country from acquiring nuclear technology from France or to prevent Iran from acquiring it from Russia? Invasion? To my knowledge the US government is the only in the world with a trade embargo against Iran. What method of control and influence is available to prevent the sale of weapons to Iran? The US government has troops in Iraq and it can't even control the sale or use of weapons there. How can it control KSA or Iran? Neither can the USA control the sale of oil. It is easier for a person to bomb a section of a pipeline at night and render the whole thing useless than it is to protect a single mile of it. I guess my point is... the USA is NOT in control today and is no more and no less in control with or without the sale of a weapon. I personally don't think the majority have that figured out... especially outside of the USA.

As far as politics go: Since you are fishing for a generalization and I seem to be providing today... I can tell you honestly that I find that underneath the layers of apathy, genuine concern, love, hatred, faith, fear, greed, etc... in the USA there is a genuine disgust of the average Middle Easterner. A genuine disgust that is identical in every way to the average disgust that you might find in Egypt of the average US citizen, their values or their lifestyle. It is often unspoken, but I will speak of it. I think it is similar to the way that a rich person looks at a poor person and considers different reasons for the economic disparity than the poor person does. The poor person has fists in the air in rage because he thinks the rich person controls him, yet the rich person thinks if the poor person tried using his hands more productively then he wouldn't be so poor. The problem is, even within the USA the average US citizen does NOT want to associate with a Muslim or a Middle Easterner any more than that Muslim or Middle Easterner wants to associate with them. My point is... there is a communication divide because there are real barriers to association. In my view, anything and everything that can be done to drop those communication or relationship barriers will eventually help peace. There is no relationship without communication. My premise is: there is NO peace magically emanating from the absence of relationships... and there is plenty of evidence of an absence even within the USA between ME and non-ME Americans. When communication does develop there is still a genuine disgust and differences in values, tradition, lifestyle, etc... still to be overcome or accepted within each other's mind. I don't think that anyone in their right mind sells a weapon to someone they are disgusted with. My point is that when those relationship barriers are identified, attacked, and broken... then the demand for the weapon in the first place is further eliminated.

Egypt on average may be poor but I believe the Sudanese or Palestinians that come there are poorer. But the KSA is NOT poor. I see a deep economic divide there between the rich and the poor under the spell of the 'oil curse'. The overwhelming majority of the wealth is pumped from the ground so a citizen doesn't have to use his hands in productivity... he has to be in the right family. A citizen can use his hands (or mind) to further himself but the citizen getting money from oil and family is going to be wealthier. So there is a deep economic disparity. I submit agian that whatever that can be done to drop those relationship barriers across citizens will help end the demand for weapons. A Sunni would be hard pressed to lift a gun, and a Shia would be hard pressed to lift a gun against a Sunni... if the Sunni and the Shia were faithful, loving, honest friends with each other. I tend to say the same thing across any racial, ethnic, economic, political, or religious divide. It is not the weapons that kill people... it is people killing people with the weapons. What weapons technology or sophistication did 9/11 require to turn a few civilian jetliners into cruise guided missiles? Box cutter knives. Alright... so who is the villain who sold them angry boys those box cutters? Could 9/11 have been prevented if the USA banned and prevented the sale of box cutters?

At some level there is a realistic demand for weapons by the Middle East, and even sophisticated weapons. My point is that it is not just weapons that are purchased from the world but that it is everything from Egyptian man power, European cars, Western medicine, etc... Oil is sold off for most ALL technology, infrastructure, and resources. It is not just weapons. The KSA no more has its own weapons technology and manufacturing plants than it does its own car factories. Either the KSA purchases weapons from somewhere or it will need to start designing and building weapons factories for itself if it wants to have any whatsoever. Any disclosed weapons purchases there will make the headlines. NATO and rogue countries like Australia might purchase weapons made outside of their country, but it does not make the headlines. If a ME country purchases weapons... that will make the headlines. Rightfully so because the weapons purchases tend to be more sizeable with a greater probability of use.

As the USA purchases oil from KSA there is a strong US government interest to prevent any attack against the KSA. With Egypt, I think the US government places faith in the Egyptian government's militant crackdown of militants.

So MW, rather than edit and place any structure to my rambling post here... I am not trying to defend the use, purchase, sale, or manufacture of any weapon by anyone or any government. I am trying to present different lines of insight and thought into the problem than the typical USA bashing that you might be accustomed to in Egypt. If you or anyone wants to rob my house, I have no weapons whatsoever in it, no desire to use any, no desire to sell them, and no desire to purchase them. Yet there are Americans who do. Maybe I'll just put a sign out front of my American home stating just that... rob me, I'm purposely defenseless... since a sign (communication) is pretty much the only control that I have over my neighbor and the only control that I really want to have over my neighbor.

Faithfulservant · 08-05-2007, 06:10 PM

Thank you Cyberpi. I would put that same sign up in my yard.

Muslimwoman · 08-07-2007, 02:26 AM

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