What is America thinking?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by farhan

The question should have been "do Americans know".

You have a good point Faran. I think we would all be shocked and angry if we found out all the nasty things our governments are up to.

Originally Posted by farhan

Man is such a fool.

Ameen brother.

Salaam

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

A very interesting book is called "For the President's Eyes Only" and is an objective an account of American intelligence operations and policy decisions from George Washington to George H. Bush.

though i'm fairly converstant in many aspects of American history, i was quite surprised at some of the information revealed in this book... when we found out about the Magnificant Five, Hiss, Kimby and the Rosenbergs, what really happened at Pearl Harbor and so forth.

some Presidents, like Truman, though more influential than any other President in creating the intelligence agencies and programs within the United States, were barely interested in such things and the way that they would eventually shape American policy and oft expressed some fantasy in their understand and use of intelligence assets, too many John La Carre novels i suppose.

when China rolled across the border into Korea during the Korean War the entire United States intelligence community was surprised.. not least of which was due to the penetration of North Korean agents into the South Korean intelligence agency.

that's a long winded way of saying... read the book, its fascinating. the same author also wrote a book called "Inside the KGB" which i'm quite eager to read.

there is no nation on earth, that i'm aware of, that has not engaged in activities which we would consider morally questionable if not ethically unsound.

as a Buddhist, it pains me to see the tradition of Buddhism copted by nationalist movements and put to uses that, in my humble view, are quite outside the bounds of Dharma. i cannot understand, of course, what enormous responsiblity it is to have the safty and welbeing of a nation upon my shoulders and, Buddha willing, i never will.

metta,

~v

[wil]

Anyone read The Creature from Jekyll Island or anything from Howard Zinn?

No US history investigation is complete without them...

[flowperson]

Originally Posted by wil

Anyone read The Creature from Jekyll Island or anything from Howard Zinn?

No US history investigation is complete without them...

Absolutely spot on Farhan, and just look at the way that President Jimmy Carter was lambasted when his latest book, which echoed and traced the histories of these things, came out some months ago. Add to that the horror of the Lebanon war last summer. Ugh !

Yes wil, Howard Zinn's, A Peoples' History Of the United States, has always been of my touchstones concerning the truths of the past. When he, Studs Terkle, and Chomsky are gone, who will be left to tell us such things ?

flow....

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Absolutely spot on Farhan, and just look at the way that President Jimmy Carter was lambasted when his latest book, which echoed and traced the histories of these things, came out some months ago. Add to that the horror of the Lebanon war last summer. Ugh !

Yes wil, Howard Zinn's, A Peoples' History Of the United States, has always been of my touchstones concerning the truths of the past. When he, Studs Terkle, and Chomsky are gone, who will be left to tell us such things ?

flow....

umm.. mostly this is all public record... at least the information contained in the text i was mentioning.

metta,

~v

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by flowperson

When he, Studs Terkle, and Chomsky are gone, who will be left to tell us such things ?

flow....

Look to Inga Muscio, among others. Don't underestimate the power of the younger generation.

[Tao_Equus]

After Bush's posturing yesterday even the more conservative news programs/papers are openly "preparing" us mentaly for a strike against Iran.

Our army cheif is telling us to prepare for decades of war in the middle east.

Brown is poodling like Blair before him.

Even Sarkosy is climbing on board.

Grim years ahead indeed.

Tao

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Grim years ahead indeed.

I think more grim for the people of the Middle East. It certainly appears that Bush is trying harder and harder to push the Iranians into a corner, knowing they will eventually have to come out fighting. I am getting a little jumpy knowing I am going back to the Mid East in a few weeks.

[Cyris Ali]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Why are they doing this? Is this about oil again or just hoping the Middle East will blow itself off the map?

Asalamu Aleykum.

First I would like to say, as a person who was fortunate enough and is grateful to have been born in America, that I'm not thinking anything. George Bush and his administration does not speak for me personally in any way, shape or form.

And, without getting too involved in a topic I can only guess about...

I would like to remind my fellow posters of the excellent growing conditions for opium in the Middle East. I would also like to point out the fact that opium is quite legal in the United States for medical use and is very lucrative when finally piddled and siphoned away into black tar heroin on the streets.

The last time I investigated... I believe the import quote coming from Afghanistan and surrounding countries was a percentage of about 70-something or other.

[earl]

Found out from a friend that an Iraqi citizen had spoken at a club in our little town this week. He pleaded that US troops not leave his country as he predicted a blood bath for its citizens. I listen to conservative tV talking heads who direly predict that scenario if American trrops are pulled and I think they're right. Then I listen to "liberal" TV talking heads who demand US pull out asap stating that they cannot see shedding anymore American blood in a country where its government is unwilling to step up to do right by its own people and I think they're right. I'm a liberal of the era of Viet Nam-hate wars. We shed blood in that war for no particularly good reason. But the big difference I see between Viet Nam & Iraq, (I figured when the latter war started it would suck us into the same black hole as VN), is that that "civil" war only seemed to be about political ideology and once 1 side was victorious the killing ceased. I see this as more like the killing fields of Pol Pot's Cambodia or like Rwanda where 1 tribe was intent on wiping another off the face of the earth-neither conflict for better or worse did the US feel compelled to stop, which seemed like a humanitarian tragedy. I fear for the Iraqi citizenry but I don't see how the US can protect others indefinitely from themselves. Also being a liberal, had initially started out not believing Iran had nefarious motives-now no doubt to me that they do want to be a regional superpower and love to foment violence to destabilize surrounding nations. Yes US foreign policy hadn't helped over the years and yes changes in that could help address systemic problems feeding into the creation of radicals but those changes via policy will only come long term if at all and in the meantime "someone" will need to attempt to stop the mindless killing the radicals seem bent on doing. But the only ones that can take that fight to them effectively are other Muslims-I mean literally fight as in take up arms and there's no political will on their parts be it in Iraq or surrounding nations to do that. I see nothing but a very bleak future for that region regardless of US presence unless/until that happens. earl

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Cyris Ali

Asalamu Aleykum.

The last time I investigated... I believe the import quote coming from Afghanistan and surrounding countries was a percentage of about 70-something or other.

wa aleykum salaam

I believe the latest figure is that Afghanistan produce 93% of the world opium now.

Of course we may need when the bombs start dropping again.

[wil]

Namaste Earl, and I agree with almost all your points.

Unfortunately we put them in this mess...

We owe it to them to fix it...

Although I don't have high hopes that we can or will.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by earl

But the only ones that can take that fight to them effectively are other Muslims-I mean literally fight as in take up arms and there's no political will on their parts be it in Iraq or surrounding nations to do that. I see nothing but a very bleak future for that region regardless of US presence unless/until that happens. earl

This, imo, is where the big dilemma rests Earl. The Arab nations will never accept the interference in their affairs from the US but will themselves not deal with the problems. Yet, if the Arab nations all made peace and decided to sort their own back yard out, I doubt that the US would step back and let them.

As for Iraq I was reading this week that the new draft constitution (which the US has rubber stamped) takes away many of the rights for women in Iraq. Basically, as far as I can tell each region will be a law unto itself but all come under the new constitution. Iraq actually had quite a lot of rights for women, compared to it's neighbours and this is a huge step back for them. The fact that the US has supported this really astonishes me.

Charlotte Bunch of the U.S.-based Center for Women's Global Leadership said

I think that the United States should be held accountable for its disregard of the impact on women's rights of the (military) occupation -- something many people said in advance when the Bush administration tried to claim the war would benefit women, and many pointed out that Iraq had some of the best laws and policies regarding women's rights already.

Iraqi Women May Lose Basic Rights Under New Constitution

It's not looking good.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste Earl, and I agree with almost all your points.

Unfortunately we put them in this mess...

We owe it to them to fix it...

Although I don't have high hopes that we can or will.

I have tried this argument with Arabs Wil and get a very stoney reply. They feel we just need to pull out and bugger off, as the continued occupation is causing more sectarian violence and doesn't allow things to settle down.

Yes it is true that violence would continue but with us still there, they have something else to fight over and will continue to do so. Sometimes when you break something you have to accept you cannot be the one to fix it and hand it over to someone who can, whilst paying reparation.

[bob x]

I think it will be very bad in Iraq when we leave-- but I think the longer we stay, the worse it will be. I had a sinking feeling that W was going to be a disaster for our country way back in 2000, but I really didn't just anticipate how bad a mess he would create.