What Is Liberal Christianity?

[wil]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

It would depend on how his perception of his devoutness predisposed him to see and treat others I suppose. At least that's the message I take away from the "rant."...But should he have forgiven, shut his trap, and walked away? Or was there something for those who could hear him to learn from what he said?

Still wanting to see whether those couple hundred scholars deemed these to be his words or not...but..I definitly read this as a time when he wasn't having a Jesus moment. This is a chapter in Mathew...but it would be a what 3 minute speech? Full of generalizations, condemning a whole group of people as having these negative traits when we can imagine that it could be the majority but there were some who wouldn't deserve all of this. Also it is was most probably already known.

Aren't there posters on this very site which you take their words with a grain of salt? You know how they are, are we really expecting to change them? Can we possibly change them by taking them to task? Or how do we change the situation? The only one we can change is ourselves, and the only way to do that as Jesus indicated to those listening, don't follow that way, don't be like them (don't respond to that post in kind, they may act pious and have knowledge but look at what they do) and take the higher road....decide if vengefulness is your mentor....or is there a better way?

edit: ps like trying to get out of our old boxes old ways...my dove appears to be a metaphor for peace trying to leave its circle....his little wings have been beating for almost a year....

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by wil

Aren't there posters on this very site which you take their words with a grain of salt? You know how they are, are we really expecting to change them? Can we possibly change them by taking them to task? Or how do we change the situation? The only one we can change is ourselves, and the only way to do that as Jesus indicated to those listening, don't follow that way, don't be like them (don't respond to that post in kind, they may act pious and have knowledge but look at what they do) and take the higher road....decide if vengefulness is your mentor....or is there a better way?

I know I can't change learner, or anyone else. The reason for my response is so that people know that when someone launches a personal attack like this, there is someone who sees it for what it is . . . and cares.

Whether Jesus said the "rant" or not (or whether a literal historical Jesus said anything attributed to him) does not change the truth one might perceive in considering the meanings. By vocalizing that such lack of love is not the way, there is still a message to be heard, even though the audience for the message is not the subject of the message. Indeed, the example set by the subject of the message - for the precise reason that they don't get they are the subject of the message - is the message.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

But should he have forgiven, shut his trap, and walked away? Or was there something for those who could hear him to learn from what he said?

I think what is being overlooked hear is that these were "religious leaders" of Jesus' day. They had the responsibility of the spiritual wellbeing of the common people. And I think Jesus beef with them is that they were leading people away from God. The blind leading the blind. The purpose of a religious leader ought to bring people toward God. Yet these scibes and Pharisees were putting yokes on people that discouraged that.

Jesus' "Woes" reached two groups. One was the scribes and Pharisees, who evidently didn't take the rebuke kindly. Second was the multitude, so that their eyes would be open to the hypocrisy they were being subjected to.

I'd say that Jesus' aim was more for benefit of the second group, the multitude that He loved and was trying to bring back to a right relatioship to God.

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by Dondi

I'd say that Jesus' aim was more for benefit of the second group, the multitude that He loved and was trying to bring back to a right relatioship to God.

Exactly.

[RubySera_Martin]

Dondi, the issue you raise about the mandate for Christians to proselityze is a serious issue. I understand exactly where you are coming from. I've been on that side of the fence. It's a matter of conscience for you. It is also a matter of conscience for me to take care of myself. I don't know how to reconcile the issue of your conscience with my conscience. How can the same God give opposing commands to his children?

Here's the cold logic:

The fundy approach makes for unmanageable depression in some people. This drives them to suicide. For the fundy not to proselytize it means loss of his salvation. However, he also believes the person who commits suicide goes to hell. So the fundy is sending a person to hell so he himself can get salvation.

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

So the fundy is sending a person to hell so he himself can get salvation.

Add in the doctrines of the Prosperity Gospel, and you also have the makings of a pyramid scheme.

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

Add in the doctrines of the Prosperity Gospel, and you also have the makings of a pyramid scheme.

I've been fortunate enough not to be exposed to it. I saw it on a video by Randall Balmer. He interviewed a prosperity preacher for his video series on evangelicalism and fundamentalism. Title: Mine eyes have seen the glory.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

Add in the doctrines of the Prosperity Gospel, and you also have the makings of a pyramid scheme.

oh, so THAT is liberal Christianity....lol

Seriously, let us not get into a discussion of Social Security or Universal Health Care yet...it doesn't appear we can solve those problems...

Lets take proselityzing, witnessing, recruiting, salvation on....we've agreed we are not able to change others behaviour yes? We've agreed no one is born to live upto our expectations...or is that just me?

So how do we handle it? To me unconditional love, love thy neighbor, all implies I surely have no need to jump off the handle and down their throat...especially after all of us have been there...and some of us may be going back!

I love the discourse, I love the contemplation, I love their dedication. My JW friends, my Mormon friends, I start with the discussion of how, when the bible was created, written, edited, translated...so we can start with a basis of understanding. Sometimes we can't get passed the 'finger of G-d' wrote the entire book and brought it down off the mountain....and then I ask, if you believe that, and I believe this...how are we to have a conversation. It appears we must have a theological, philosophical, moral discussion without using bible verses....can we do that? If we want to prayer are we aware that the studies that indicate prayer works indicates it works for athiests? That the power of positive thinking goes beyond the realm of religions?

I'm perfectly ok with them praying for me, be they Hindu, Christian, or Wiccan...

The question again is this thing exists....be it proseleltyzing or what we perceive as uncaring individuals or hate groups...how do we move forward without promoting negative behaviour or acting like the pharisees?

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

Dondi, the issue you raise about the mandate for Christians to proselityze is a serious issue. I understand exactly where you are coming from. I've been on that side of the fence. It's a matter of conscience for you. It is also a matter of conscience for me to take care of myself. I don't know how to reconcile the issue of your conscience with my conscience. How can the same God give opposing commands to his children?

Here's the cold logic:

The fundy approach makes for unmanageable depression in some people. This drives them to suicide. For the fundy not to proselytize it means loss of his salvation. However, he also believes the person who commits suicide goes to hell. So the fundy is sending a person to hell so he himself can get salvation.

If it was the type of fundy approach that taij described in his post, then that would add weight to your logic. But not all fundy approaches are like that. I read this from the scriptures:

"...be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" - I Peter 3:15

Or as another version would render "with gentleness and respect".

I believe the fundy message can be delivered in a non-offensive manner if done properly. And I think it can be delivered without the person it is directed to feel depressed, nor do I think a fundy needs to shove the message. When I was door-knocking, I presented the opportunity to share, but if they didn't want to hear, I respected that. In that case, I just bid them farewell, maybe leave them a tract in case they might read it later. Then I'd go to the next door. I'm just the messenger. God is the one who draws people to Himself. I'm not out to change anyone's religion. I just want people find a relationship with God through Christ.

And I didn't share my faith in order for me to gain a seat in heaven. I already have salvation in Christ. But I did it because I have developed genuine concern for people. Is it so twisted to show people how much God loves them by sending His Son to save them from their sins? How does this lead to suicide? It has been my experience that people are happy to know that God loves them. I've seen people cry as they found a sense of forgiveness through Christ as they received Him for the first time in their lives. would they have ever been drawn to God had someone not told them? Maybe. But I've seen many of them grow in the Lord and developed a heart for God.

And even if they didn't come to God, at least I know that I planted a small seed of hope so that when they do find they need God, they will know that they can come to God where they are.

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Is it so twisted to show people how much God loves them by sending His Son to save them from their sins? How does this lead to suicide?

Because when people cannot consciensiously accept that proposition as truth they are not accepted into the community. They are treated as a bad person. Love the sinner but not the sin. If this happens to be the community you were born into, you are forced as a teenager to choose between lying (saying something your intellect and conscience tells you is not the truth) and being ostracized by your entire social universe.

[leastone]

Correction in post #6: It was JBF's question. I obviously had Ruby on my mind. Now I'll go and see what awaits me at the other thread.

Learner

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

Because when people cannot consciensiously accept that proposition as truth they are not accepted into the community. They are treated as a bad person. Love the sinner but not the sin. If this happens to be the community you were born into, you are forced as a teenager to choose between lying (saying something your intellect and conscience tells you is not the truth) and being ostracized by your entire social universe.

It hurts, doesn't it. You have been indoctrinated so deeply into a dark brand of Christianity that you don't know what to believe anymore. The rules and regulations that you have been subjected to has left a sour taste for that brand of Christianity, yet it is the only brand you know, really.

Do you think you can ever to find the love of God through Christ? Or has your past stained you so bad that any thought of a relationship with God through Christ would have no effect? Perhaps you are not trusting of anything to do with the name Christian, for it carries such negative connotations now, don't it?

But before you toss everything out, remember this: Your beef isn't with God, but rather the people who treated you bad. Those who put your through that. Stripped of all that baggage your carrying, from those experiences and all the hurt and heartache you have suffered, and all the wounds, would it be possible for you to look for God? For now you even seem to be having doubts about His very existance.

It is my personal conviction that the bottom line is that God doesn't care for rules and regulations, He knows we make mistakes. He knows our sin. He knows we will continue. What did Jesus tell the woman who was caught in adultery? "Where are your accuser? Is there no one to condemn you?" "No one" "Neither do I condemn you" Do you know what is so wonderful about this? The woman didn't even ask or expect forgiveness, but was rather waiting for that condemnation to come. Yet Jesus just said, "Go, and sin no more." That is love unconditional. And it is only when we realize that God is saying this to us that we can know this in our heart. Do you think that woman left a changed woman?

[wil]

As we are defining this space, which some feel to open, to much without rules..If we need some guidelines will these suffice?

Mark 12:28-31
28. One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29. "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
30. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
31. The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

And if Taijasi callously disregarded a feeling you had expressed, perhaps you should have said something.

But what he said was nothing specific, perse. He was just rather general of his view of fundies, which I could have taken offense, except that it wasn't directed toward me directly.

[flowperson]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

Flow, did Post 2 come out of your brain? I mean, did you compose those definitions and the explanations? My hat's off to you. You must be a professional policy drafter.

Yup...used to be at a BIIIIIGGG university which shall go unnamed. Glad you appreciated the work. Keep Smiling...alot !!

flow....