What is "morality"?

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

Some things are beyond logic, the way I see them, specially in matters of religion, and of course, taste. In many instances my opinions are based on my upbringing and inured background of religion, of social habits in my own ethnic or cultural or academic or recreation group, or on pure biases which I always try to moderate when I know them to be unfair and even unkind to other peoples.

But I want you to know that I respect other people's views and tastes and specially their religious or irreligious or a-religious preferences.

Susma Rio Sep

I understand what you're trying to say. Or not to say, as the case may be.

So tell me, what does your background, upbringing etc., etc., tell you morality is? (Excuse the grammer)

[Susma Rio Sep]

Originally Posted by CSharp

I understand what you're trying to say. Or not to say, as the case may be.

So tell me, what does your background, upbringing etc., etc., tell you morality is? (Excuse the grammer)

Dear CSharp:

I wished I could talk here about what for me is morality. I might talk about it again in another post when I feel the impulse to do so. Right now I don't have the zest. And I can't write without that push from the muses. Do you have similar experiences.

I think I have said my piece about morality in various posts in the forums here. May I impose upon your time and interest to use the search function of this website to look up my posts or my contributions on what is morality.

Best regards,

Susma Rio Sep

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

Dear CSharp:

I wished I could talk here about what for me is morality. I might talk about it again in another post when I feel the impulse to do so. Right now I don't have the zest. And I can't write without that push from the muses. Do you have similar experiences.

If I have muses, they are unrelenting. Writing is simply thinking "out loud" for me. That's why I say that what I write is not what I believe, but rather where I happen to be in my thought processes on that particular subject.

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

I think I have said my piece about morality in various posts in the forums here. May I impose upon your time and interest to use the search function of this website to look up my posts or my contributions on what is morality.

Best regards,

Susma Rio Sep

I have done as you suggested.

Is it your intention to convey that you believe morality to be what the Catholic Church says it is? And/or that your only measure of what is and isn't moral is what you've been taught? Have you never sought to understand such things yourself?

And please, don't assume I am criticizing such things. These are genuine questions. It has simply never occurred to me to ask these questions before. I have never had a dialogue with a Catholic that brought such questions to mind. If you don't wish to answer, simply don't answer.

It may help you to know that I am not asking if you've ever questioned the validity of what you believe but, rather, if you've ever sought to understand why something you've been taught might be right and true. (Assuming you believe that the morality you've been taught is right.) Two entirely different things.

[Susma Rio Sep]

Originally Posted by CSharp

If I have muses, they are unrelenting. Writing is simply thinking "out loud" for me. That's why I say that what I write is not what I believe, but rather where I happen to be in my thought processes on that particular subject.


I have done as you suggested.

Is it your intention to convey that you believe morality to be what the Catholic Church says it is? And/or that your only measure of what is and isn't moral is what you've been taught? Have you never sought to understand such things yourself?

And please, don't assume I am criticizing such things. These are genuine questions. It has simply never occurred to me to ask these questions before. I have never had a dialogue with a Catholic that brought such questions to mind. If you don't wish to answer, simply don't answer.

It may help you to know that I am not asking if you've ever questioned the validity of what you believe but, rather, if you've ever sought to understand why something you've been taught might be right and true. (Assuming you believe that the morality you've been taught is right.) Two entirely different things.

I used to hold that view when I was a devout Catholic, that what is morality is what the Catholic Church teaches. But no longer.

Do you have any excerpts from my posts where I give you that impression that I still hold that view or duty of a faithful Catholic, that the Catholic Church is the institution in charge of morality?

No, I don't hold that view anymore. I guess I am a lapsed Catholic.

For a long time now I act often against Catholic morality, for example, practicing artificial contraception with my legally married wife. Another, I always succeed in paying less taxes than I know I should. Then also I lie whenever it does not do any harm, and I have to do it to save myself a lot of inconvenience, at least; but the Catholic church teaches that it is always immoral to lie.

Another immorality I do as often as the opportunity presents itself: when the supermarket makes a mistake in putting the wrong price, a lower one than the usual, on an item, I buy more than one unit of that item -- saying to myself that the supermarket also makes errors to my disadvantage.

No, I don't hold that the Catholic Church is in charge of morality, at least not mine.

Susma Rio Sep

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

...

No, I don't hold that the Catholic Church is in charge of morality, at least not mine.

Susma Rio Sep

I didn't mean to imply that you thought the church was "in charge of morality". Let me try a different approach...

You said the following:

when the supermarket makes a mistake in putting the wrong price, a lower one than the usual, on an item, I buy more than one unit of that item -- saying to myself that the supermarket also makes errors to my disadvantage.

Obviously, you feel justified in taking advantage of a chance to "get even". But let's say that you're standing in the checkout line and the guy in front of you has 10 cans of the same thing. But when it is his turn, he says to the clerk "I really need these items but they've obviously been mismarked. Please check the price and charge me the correct amount."

Would you think this man's act was moral, or immoral?

[Susma Rio Sep]

Originally Posted by CSharp

...

Obviously, you feel justified in taking advantage of a chance to "get even". But let's say that you're standing in the checkout line and the guy in front of you has 10 cans of the same thing. But when it is his turn, he says to the clerk "I really need these items but they've obviously been mismarked. Please check the price and charge me the correct amount."

Would you think this man's act was moral, or immoral?

I think he's a very moral person, even righteous.

Susma Rio Sep

[Susma Rio Sep]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

I think he's a very moral person, even righteous.

Susma Rio Sep

Yes, his act is moral.

Susma Rio Sep

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

Yes, his act is moral.

Susma Rio Sep

I appreciate the difference. Thank you for clarifying.

Assuming the other guy knows what you know (that the store often makes "mistakes" in its own favor which could be a thread in itself), why do you, personally, consider it a moral act?

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

I think he's a very moral person, even righteous.

Susma Rio Sep

This actually interests me.

Imagine such a person, as the newest member of a very small community that witnessed him acting in this manner on several occassions. He wasn't saving the world, but merely "doing the right thing" in the small matters that presented themselves. And he was a genuinely happy man. Content to be alone, content to be among his neighbors, always a smile, etc.. Why might someone call him a "holy person"? Or, to be more specific, why might a Catholic call him a "holy person"?

I've actually witnessed this scenario and was shocked that such an extreme label would be applied to someone who merely did what he perceived to be "the right thing". He wasn't Catholic himself and the one calling him "holy" was the most bitter and contrary person (an old woman) I've ever known and said it in a manner that suggested it should be obvious to any moron with half a brain (meaning me, of course).

Any thoughts or explanations for this, as a "post graduate Catholic"?

[Susma Rio Sep]

Originally Posted by CSharp

This actually interests me.

Imagine such a person, as the newest member of a very small community that witnessed him acting in this manner on several occassions. He wasn't saving the world, but merely "doing the right thing" in the small matters that presented themselves. And he was a genuinely happy man. Content to be alone, content to be among his neighbors, always a smile, etc.. Why might someone call him a "holy person"? Or, to be more specific, why might a Catholic call him a "holy person"?

I've actually witnessed this scenario and was shocked that such an extreme label would be applied to someone who merely did what he perceived to be "the right thing". He wasn't Catholic himself and the one calling him "holy" was the most bitter and contrary person (an old woman) I've ever known and said it in a manner that suggested it should be obvious to any moron with half a brain (meaning me, of course).

Any thoughts or explanations for this, as a "post graduate Catholic"?

Actually I said that the person you described is moral, even righteous, and his act is moral.

I didn't say that he is holy.

Honestly, I am myself wondering what is exactly to be a holy person.

If the bitter person calls him holy, then she must have her reasons.

What do I think are her reasons for calling him holy?

First I have to find out what she understands by 'holy'; then I might be able to speculate on her reasons for calling him holy. If I know her and she is available to be interviewed by me, I would ask her for her reasons for calling the person you described as holy.

I am wondering exactly what it is to be holy for a human. God is holy, Jesus, God and man, is holy, the Trinity is holy, because holiness is an attribute of divinity -- which is actually a circularity.

My tendency is to equate being holy in a human with being close to God in the sense that a human does what he thinks God wants him to be and to do.

I like to hear from that bitter woman her reasons for calling holy the person you described.


Susma Rio Sep

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

Actually I said that the person you described is moral, even righteous, and his act is moral.

I didn't say that he is holy.
...

My tendency is to equate being holy in a human with being close to God in the sense that a human does what he thinks God wants him to be and to do.

With what do you equate being "righteous", in a human?

[Susma Rio Sep]

Originally Posted by CSharp

With what do you equate being "righteous", in a human?

The habit of alacrity in doing moral acts.

Susma Rio Sep

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

The habit of alacrity in doing moral acts.

Susma Rio Sep

How does a moral act differ from what one's God wants one to do? And how does habitually and alacritously choosing the moral path differ from being what one's God wants one to be?

[Susma Rio Sep]

Originally Posted by CSharp

How does a moral act differ from what one's God wants one to do? And how does habitually and alacritously choosing the moral path differ from being what one's God wants one to be?

I don't know how other God-believers proceed. On my own part I try my best to imagine what God would want me to do, using my intelligence and consulting with more knowledgeable people and people with my best interests in their heart and mind, and also examing my motives very detailedly.

In most routines of day to day life I just use common use, being on guard against lapsing into self-interest objectives that might hurt other people even just emotionally.

Susma Rio Sep

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

In most routines of day to day life I just use common use, being on guard against lapsing into self-interest objectives that might hurt other people even just emotionally.

Susma Rio Sep

So, in your opinion, is morality avoiding self-interests and not hurting other people?

And if so, do you perceive these things as moral only because you believe this is what God wants us to do? i.e. do you perceive any benefit, aside from pleasing one's God, in acting morally?