What is pride and why is it bad?

[Cage]

Thanks to both of you...

I understand the basic premise here, and I understand why good communication skills are needed, but I see no confusion except in the way some things are being defined. Ego (self) is not bad in my mind unless merged with arrogance. (Pride in my mind is simple arrogance)

Arrogance is fairly easy to spot, but this doesn't make it fruitful to judge another based on what we see. I think pride comes into play when we do this, as we put ourselves above that arrogance, and look down on the person in question. When we attribute such negative faculties on someone, we in turn deny them of their own worthy contributions...we shut them out so to speak. There is no fruit from such behavior, only lack of understanding, imo. Besides, none are perfect and to point out anothers shortcomings directly is to deny that we have our own.

I ask the questions I do because I have felt ashamed being pleased with self in the past. I don't like feeling ashamed, and it is futile to try to shame another. These are products of pride, and it goes both ways. To feel shame because of anothers actions or to try to cause shame on purpose both stem from an unhealthy sense of pride. I think it good to bring to mind that which is worthy, but to point fingers directly, and boast is another thing altogether.

I enjoy being my own individual. We are all the same in as much as we are all human, and in this life together. We all have differing strengths, blessings, gifts, awareness, and sense of self, tho. We all have faults, too. Why then is ego (self) viewed as being a bad thing to some unless we are simply raising ourselves above another?


btw, I read and agree with everything you posted, cyberpi


James

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Cage

Thanks to both of you...

I understand the basic premise here, and I understand why good communication skills are needed, but I see no confusion except in the way some things are being defined. Ego (self) is not bad in my mind unless merged with arrogance. (Pride in my mind is simple arrogance)

Arrogance is fairly easy to spot, but this doesn't make it fruitful to judge another based on what we see. I think pride comes into play when we do this, as we put ourselves above that arrogance, and look down on the person in question. When we attribute such negative faculties on someone, we in turn deny them of their own worthy contributions...we shut them out so to speak. There is no fruit from such behavior, only lack of understanding, imo. Besides, none are perfect and to point out anothers shortcomings directly is to deny that we have our own.

I ask the questions I do because I have felt ashamed being pleased with self in the past. I don't like feeling ashamed, and it is futile to try to shame another. These are products of pride, and it goes both ways. To feel shame because of anothers actions or to try to cause shame on purpose both stem from an unhealthy sense of pride. I think it good to bring to mind that which is worthy, but to point fingers directly, and boast is another thing altogether.

I enjoy being my own individual. We are all the same in as much as we are all human, and in this life together. We all have differing strengths, blessings, gifts, awareness, and sense of self, tho. We all have faults, too. Why then is ego (self) viewed as being a bad thing to some unless we are simply raising ourselves above another?


btw, I read and agree with everything you posted, cyberpi


James

James,

While this is somewhat outside the scope of conventional Christianity, it is addressed by the more mystical sects. Should you begin to study Patristics, you would see a dearth of information on moving past self to merging into God. Clearly, a conventional view of ego reveals nothing out of the ordinary and nothing appears untoward, but a deeper view reveals something quite different.

The mystics, people like Meister Eckhart, St. John of the Cross and even more recently Thomas Merton and Matthew Fox look at ego a little differently. As the last thing that stands between you and God, ego is the false self, the constructed idea of a self apart from God.
I have heard some refer to ego as an acronym: Edging God Out.

Peace
Mark

[Cage]

Edging G-d out probably speaks more to me about ego than has anything else I've heard in the past, lol. I'll have to look into patristics sometime...maybe it'll wake me up a little, haha

James

[Cage]

I think I'm gaining a better understanding of pride and why it is bad/harmful. I was thinking a few minutes ago about how I felt good about self accomplishments, or at least what I viewed to be "Self" accomplishments, but then when someone would disagree with me, it hurt, and that was a product of pride, yes? I think I realize now that allowing yourself to feel pride in what you've done, or what you've gained, or what you 'think' you understand can lead to spiritual damage later and cause offence to ones self.

Even so, a healthy sense of self respect is a must, and that has little to do with pride, imo. Self respect, self esteem, confidence all stem from ones foundation in G-d, and in Christ and nothing can pluck us from this reality once we find our station.


James

[Saltmeister]

I don't think it's a question of whether pride is always wrong, or when it is wrong, or whether God wants us to have proud (well, yes He does).

I think's it's a matter of being realistic about who we are as people. God would want us to be realistic.

It's also not about comparing ourselves to others in sense of trying to convince ourselves that we're doing the right thing when we're not. We all have our triumphs and failures and we just need to leave them where they belong. No point blowing myself up like an inflated balloon to look big when someone can just come along and poke a hole in it. The feeling doesn't last forever. Pride can make me sick when I'm not realistic about what makes me proud of myself. It makes me sick when I realise I've deceived myself. Very sick.

Pride involves knowing what belongs to us. Arrogance claims something that isn't your's to own. It's called making a fool of yourself. That's why arrogant people are fools. They are indeed fooling themselves. As it has been said, "thou shalt not covet."

[Francis king]

thanks for the Johavi window... makes sense...

arrogance is not pride... but pride often leads to arrogance...

I am often described as arrogant, but I prefer the terms assertive, confident, strong-willed, or even- opinionated... arrogant has such negative connotations...

I have pride in myself, yes... that pride, that sense of self being acceptable in the eyes of self, had stood me in good stead over the years... I have no time for self doubt, feeling bad about the self, and bemoaning my fate- there's plenty of other ppl out there who will run me down, if I let them, and I'd rather not, thanks... I am proud of myself, and my small accomplishments, and so I should be... but as well as this, I am also grateful, grateful to myself for allowing myself to be itself...

I like Satlmeisters- realistic- being proud of urself and ur accomplishments is acceptable, if ur being realistic about urself and ur position in the great grand scheme of things... being arrogant about such acheivements, however, annoys other ppl, as it makes them feel small, and its bad for ur own health, becuase when u fall, everyone u have offended will be happy and these ppl will be less reluctant to pick u up, and as well as this, some of them will deliberately try to pull you down to their level...lol...

being humble and having humility is not the same as being a miserable wretch who sits at the back of the class and never opens his mouth- being humble is not to always do as ur told by ur superiors, of which, in ur assumed lowly position, are numerous, while wearing ur sack cloth and ashes...

be proud of urself... it's allowed... just don't "crow" about ur great acheivements, as u'll make ppl feel bad, and then they'll hate u...

daft, isn't it?

[Star Sarellia]

From my thoughts.. I always felt that the 'Pride' that is a sin is the 'Pride' that the people have, that works against them.
Eg. A man loses his $60,000 a year job and then refuses to take the $55,000 job, despite the fact he will lose his house etc.. because his pride refuses to allow him to accept what is less.
Or the kind of Pride that people have when they refuse to apologise for their errors, because someone else should apologise first.

I think that being proud of your successes is fine.. as long as your pride isn't so strong that you believe some things to be beneath you.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Star Sarellia

Eg. A man loses his $60,000 a year job and then refuses to take the $55,000 job, despite the fact he will lose his house etc.. because his pride refuses to allow him to accept what is less.
Or the kind of Pride that people have when they refuse to apologise for their errors, because someone else should apologise first.

Namaste Star, welcome aboard....

Perfect example of how we are punished by our sins, not for them.

[Star Sarellia]

Thanks Wil,

That is what I believe too.. which I do know differs I think sometimes from other peoples thoughts.

God wishes for us to avoid sin, because the sin itself separates us from him..

[Faithfulservant]

Satans sin was pride. He cant get much further from God.

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Satans sin was pride. He cant get much further from God.

...followed by a fall and soon to come...destruction"

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Cage

Arrogance is fairly easy to spot, but this doesn't make it fruitful to judge another based on what we see. I think pride comes into play when we do this, as we put ourselves above that arrogance, and look down on the person in question. When we attribute such negative faculties on someone, we in turn deny them of their own worthy contributions...we shut them out so to speak. There is no fruit from such behavior, only lack of understanding, imo. Besides, none are perfect and to point out anothers shortcomings directly is to deny that we have our own.

I ask the questions I do because I have felt ashamed being pleased with self in the past. I don't like feeling ashamed, and it is futile to try to shame another. These are products of pride, and it goes both ways. To feel shame because of anothers actions or to try to cause shame on purpose both stem from an unhealthy sense of pride. I think it good to bring to mind that which is worthy, but to point fingers directly, and boast is another thing altogether.

I disagree. I think you have artificially turned your original post from pride into your desire to think that judgement, rebuke, and feeling shamed or guilty are bad.

If a person says to you, "What a great contribution... you are a wonderful person", I bet that it feels good somewhere. If a person says to you, "That was nasty... why are you being so mean?" I bet that it feels bad somewhere. I find that most people, self included, have a part of them that feels good that someone else likes what they see in them, and that same part feels bad that someone dislikes what they see in them. BUT at least that part listens! That is the complete opposite of the discussion of an arrogant pride that does NOT listen to others, but seeks self-evaluation, maybe to feel good but blindly if necessary, and the ears are made deaf as a result. So why put down the complete opposite for fear of a dislike, of being ashamed, a poor evaluation, a disagreeable opinion, a bad grade, a rejection, a fear of manipulation, a feeling of guilt, etc... I submit that by putting down the external evaluation or judgement by others, that we are promoting self-evaluation. Who needs eyes and ears for that? Ultimately what is being put down is placing Faith into others.

Shaming others and feeling ashamed: I find that rather than a product of pride, that it is just an internal evaluation too. There are billions of neurons in my brain that I did not author. It was someone else or something else that authored those neurons... from anywhere I have looked or listened, or anytime somebody spoke to me. If I purposely corrupt those neurons then I am a liar to myself. So instead I try to understand those neurons, which I have to feed, breathe, and sleep for daily just to keep them alive. In trying to understand those neurons, I make comparisons. Whether it is called an evalutaion or a judgement, the product of those comparisons MIGHT result in a feeling of joy, or of feeling ashamed, of guilt, happiness, anger, hope, fear, etc... as a result of something discovered by the comparison. It is still my comparison, my judgement, or my evaluation even though part of it came from someone else. While others make judgements or external evaluations based on what they see in me, and they author those neurons inside of my brain... it is my choice to listen to them and to make the comparison between the neurons. I do so because I wish to be honest with myself, and I find that most people do. So what should I do when the comparison comes up negative and I find part of myself in agreement with another person, thus feeling ashamed? Should I put down the author of those neurons for being judgemental against me? Nonsense... I made the comparison and if the comparison came up that I have sinned, or that I should feel ashamed, then the best remedy is to say, "I agree... I'm sorry... I think I was wrong... I have sinned". << Poof >>... no more shame. The shame is gone. If the shame manifested in the first place then there must have been a reason. Fundamental to that << Poof >> is that I believe a person can change. Either I need to look more closely inside of myself and understand the reason for the shame, or I need to admit to what I see and seek forgiveness for my mistakes. Either way a guilty feeling is not going to hang around for long... I have got better things to do. But a feeling of guilt or shame is NOT going to go away by denying it or by putting down the author of the neurons that helped to discover something.

I find that a person should feel ashamed when someone in their community commits a crime. It gets back to the OT in the blood or guilt sacrifices, or the parable of the goats and the lambs, but I submit that the group of people in a community or church are partly responsible when a person commits a crime (a sin). Likewise, the parents are partly responsible when their children commit a crime (a sin). I find this is not necessarily for what the parents or the community have DONE... but often for what the parents or community have NOT done. In realizing that, it changes the equation. So I suggest that it is not necessarily futile to feel ashamed for another's actions, or to rebuke and try to cause shame in others.

Does shaming or rebuking others come from pride? I had noticed that was your claim soon after I rebuked someone here for a racist statement. I think you are essentially pre-judging a person's intent, for what a person thinks is theirs or is responsible for.

For example, like your cousin I once paid my way through college, purchased books, etc. Yet instead of feeling pride, I placed pride and monetary value in those who spent their lives researching, documenting, and teaching to others what they have learned. I placed value in their achievements. I didn't author the books, I purchased them. I didn't develop their theories, I read them. I placed more value in those minds who developed so many things, and in those people willing to spend a life teaching it to others, than I did in my own. I paid those professors to even judge me, to rebuke me when I got a wrong answer or when I did not turn in the homework (or slept through a test). So shouldn't the university or the professor be proud if their students go on to develop rewarding careers from their work? Shouldn't likewise the parent be proud of their children through their achievements? On the one hand you have claimed that it is NOT the parent's or university's achievement to have educated students, but instead that it is your cousin who sought and achieved his education, while on the other hand you have indirectly revealed that it IS the parent's or university's achievement through their judgements, rebukes, and praises of their students. Well, which is it? I find that it is both because both were required. So is the motivation of anyone who judges another's words or actions, like the parent or the professor, trying to elevate or to degrade themselves through the achievements or the sins of others? I agree that it is possible, but not necessarily. I have found parents who try to live through their children. I can't really judge their intent, but if someone did not do it, then your cousin would have no education for you or the cousin to be proud of.

[Cage]

Great post, and I'm sorry it took so long to get a reply in. I completely understand what you're saying, too. I'm still trying to get my balance right, so the only way I know how to straigten my self back up is to ask questions, and confess my own views to those that can help.

Thank you for your well thought out post, man! It is appreciated!


James