What is the Christian perspective of Muhammed (pbuh)?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by sonoman

How do Christians deal with what appears to be great cognitive dissonance in Muslim believers? It's like Westerners, non-Muslims should turn off their tvs and stop reading their newspapers and listen only to the soothing words of Muslim believers about the goodness of their faith. Meanwhile, their Muslim brethren are busy every day of the week blowing fellow Muslims up or non-Muslims in the way of Muslim rule. What Westerner in their right mind would want to be a part of such a violent religious movement?

This is a presumption on the part that all Muslims are terroists?

There are many Christians who do bad things in the name of God, as well. But that doesn't make all Christians bad.

[sonoman]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

You forget the Lord's general...Joshua was his name, and Jericho was his claim to fame.

And what he taught us was this: Anything can be used as a weapon, including sound and the frequency of foot falls in cadence.

I don't forget that the Book of Joshua is thankfully just a tribal wishful-thinking story and not true according to Israeli archeologists. It's best to not let ancient tribal politics dictate what one believes about God.

[sonoman]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

This is a presumption on the part that all Muslims are terroists?

There are many Christians who do bad things in the name of God, as well. But that doesn't make all Christians bad.

There are millions of Muslims who do good. I have quite a few Muslim friends but I am also Christian and cannot stand by seeing murder committed in the name of God. If this was the 11th or 12th century, or the 15th, or 16th, or 17th, I would be protesting against the Catholic Church with its abuse of power in the name of God. I protest American abuse of power in the name of God. And I protest Israeli abuse of power in the name of God--an abuse that is rationalized by Israelis and Evangelicals by pointing to the genocidal myths of Joshua.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by sonoman

I don't forget that the Book of Joshua is thankfully just a tribal wishful-thinking story and not true according to Israeli archeologists. It's best to not let ancient tribal politics dictate what one believes about God.

I see. Then perhaps you should be the one to tell National Geographics that their discovery of Jericho (and subsequent fallen walls due to seismic disturbance, in an otherwise stable strata), was false.

It's best not to let anyone tell others what is real or what is not, based on personal opinion.

Oh, and I also think you doubt that Moses parted the Red Sea...but we know that it is possible.

Ockam's Razor

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by sonoman

There are millions of Muslims who do good. I have quite a few Muslim friends but I am also Christian and cannot stand by seeing murder committed in the name of God. If this was the 11th or 12th century, or the 15th, or 16th, or 17th, I would be protesting against the Catholic Church with its abuse of power in the name of God. I protest American abuse of power in the name of God. And I protest Israeli abuse of power in the name of God--an abuse that is rationalized by Israelis and Evangelicals by pointing to the genocidal myths of Joshua.

First off, I'm not evangelical, not by a long shot. Second, I fail to see where you shooting Christians in the foot is helping matters, considering you claim to be one.

Axe to grind?

finally, there is the consideration of predjudice. We tend to judge people and telegraph that to the world, just in the way we speak. And we don't even realize it. Just ask your "muslim friends", or should that be "friends who happen to be muslim"?

[dailogue is the best]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Further more, a prophecy is not something that "wows" people with the materialistic, but rather a vision of that which is yet to come. Once the vision is realized the prophecy then is "fulfilled".

We can look at each "prophecy" if you'd like. I'm game.

v/r

Q

If you just need prophecies, here are they:
Prophecies from Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I see. Then perhaps you should be the one to tell National Geographics that their discovery of Jericho (and subsequent fallen walls due to seismic disturbance, in an otherwise stable strata), was false.

It's best not to let anyone tell others what is real or what is not, based on personal opinion.

Oh, and I also think you doubt that Moses parted the Red Sea...but we know that it is possible.

Ockam's Razor

Namaste Q, there is plenty of discussion in the Jewish communities that it wasn't the red sea but a swamp that was crossed and it didn't part like the apologetic scientists nor the Charlton Heston movie implied...the foot folks were able to cross and the chariots got stuck in the mud and hyperbole and victory stories took over...

and from wiki

Later, Kathleen Kenyon's excavation in the 1950s redated the fall of Jericho to around 1550 BCE, a date that most archaeologists support.[14][15] In 1990, Bryant Wood critiqued Kenyon's work after her field notes became fully available. Observing ambiguities and relying on the only available carbon dating of the burn layer, which yielded a date of 1410 BCE plus or minus 40 years, Wood dated the destruction to this carbon dating, confirming Garstang and the biblical chronology. Unfortunately, this carbon date was itself the result of faulty calibration. In 1995, Hendrik J. Bruins and Johannes van der Plicht used high-precision radiocarbon dating for eighteen samples from Jericho, including six samples of charred cereal grains from the burn layer, and overall dated the destruction to an average 1562 BCE add or subtract 38 years.[16][17][18] Kenyon's date of around 1550 BCE is widely accepted based on this methodology of dating. Notably, many other Canaanite cities were destroyed around this time.
The widespread destructions of the 16th century BCE are often linked with the expulsion of the Hyksos from Egypt around this time. The 1st-century historian Josephus, in Against Apion, identified the Exodus of Israelites according to the Bible as the Expulsion of the Hyksos according to the Egyptian texts.
A few scholars follow the controversial new chronology of David Rohl, which postulates that the entire mainstream Egyptian chronology is 300 years misplaced; with the consequence that, among other things, the exodus would be dated to the 16th or 17th century BCE, and hence the archaeological record on Jericho would be much more aligned with the biblical account. Despite this, a number of literalist Christians, most prominently the respected Egyptologist Kenneth Kitchen, have vehemently attacked Rohl's chronology, since it introduces a number of other problems and issues (such as identifying the biblical Shishak as Ramses II, rather than the far more obviously named Shoshenq).

[sonoman]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I see. Then perhaps you should be the one to tell National Geographics that their discovery of Jericho (and subsequent fallen walls due to seismic disturbance, in an otherwise stable strata), was false.

It's best not to let anyone tell others what is real or what is not, based on personal opinion.

Oh, and I also think you doubt that Moses parted the Red Sea...but we know that it is possible.

Ockam's Razor

I rely on Israeli archeologists, Finkelstein and Silberman for their professional opinions, not National Geographic. If you need to believe in Old Testament Hollywood miracle stories to secure your belief then don't let me stop you. It just isn't my path. I need my faith placed on firmer ground.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste Q, there is plenty of discussion in the Jewish communities that it wasn't the red sea but a swamp that was crossed and it didn't part like the apologetic scientists nor the Charlton Heston movie implied...the foot folks were able to cross and the chariots got stuck in the mud and hyperbole and victory stories took over...

and from wiki

Yes, the fifth finger feed of the "Reed Sea", not the actual sea body itself. I was aware. I also did a test as a kid in school with a scaled mock up of the Red sea with the finger feeds, and was able to "part" the water from the finger feeds with a "down draft of wind", from a smaller blower. Got the idea from watching the "marsh lands" being cut off from the ocean currents on the shores of Rhode Island, during "down drafts" coming off the sea and hitting warmer air on shore.

Still makes the "miracle" even more so, since it can be explained scientifically (the timing is what gets me as being the miracle).

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by sonoman

I rely on Israeli archeologists, Finkelstein and Silberman for their professional opinions, not National Geographic. If you need to believe in Old Testament Hollywood miracle stories to secure your belief then don't let me stop you. It just isn't my path. I need my faith placed on firmer ground.

As I explained above, I used theory, testing and observation to validate the probability that it did occur, just not the timing of the whole situation.

But test the theory for yourself. Take a cake pan and fill it with 2 inches of water, then take a hair blower and point it towards the center of the cake pan...neat reaction, watching the water "part", leaving a dry cake pan bottom, while the water "piles up" on itself on either side...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste Q, there is plenty of discussion in the Jewish communities that it wasn't the red sea but a swamp that was crossed and it didn't part like the apologetic scientists nor the Charlton Heston movie implied...the foot folks were able to cross and the chariots got stuck in the mud and hyperbole and victory stories took over...

and from wiki

Sorry, forgot to mention Jericho. Did you know, that from the Roman times, to this day, soldiers marching across bridges go into what is called "route step"? The reason is that soldiers marching in cadence can cause a resonant frequency (critical frequency), to de-stablize te bridge's structure, which would cause the bridge to collapse...

There are lots of examples of just that happening, as well as video footage of the wind (small wind), causing the same resonant frequency to collapse a bridge in the Tacoma narrows in the 40s. I think they knick named the bridge "Galloping Girdie".

[sonoman]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

As I explained above, I used theory, testing and observation to validate the probability that it did occur, just not the timing of the whole situation.

But test the theory for yourself. Take a cake pan and fill it with 2 inches of water, then take a hair blower and point it towards the center of the cake pan...neat reaction, watching the water "part", leaving a dry cake pan bottom, while the water "piles up" on itself on either side...

Quahom, why don't you instead of theorizing about the Red Sea parting think of reasons why Hebrews would wander around the Sinai peninsula lost for 40 years in a desert with a million refugees without encountering any Egyptian forces? The story does not make any sense no matter which way you slice it which explains why Israeli archeologists haven't been able to find a single trace of the supposed 40 year trek of Israelites. Same for David's fabulous kingdom and Solomon's Temple, Joshua's conquests of Jericho, Ai, etc. etc. all Hebrew myths of origin just like most all ancient people's created to explain to themselves how they got where they were--explained with the ideas of the day which did not include any of our refined notions of historical accuracy.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by sonoman

Quahom, why don't you instead of theorizing about the Red Sea parting think of reasons why Hebrews would wander around the Sinai peninsula lost for 40 years in a desert with a million refugees without encountering any Egyptian forces? The story does not make any sense no matter which way you slice it which explains why Israeli archeologists haven't been able to find a single trace of the supposed 40 year trek of Israelites. Same for David's fabulous kingdom and Solomon's Temple, Joshua's conquests of Jericho, Ai, etc. etc. all Hebrew myths of origin just like most all ancient people's created to explain to themselves how they got where they were--explained with the ideas of the day which did not include any of our refined notions of historical accuracy.

One miracle at a time...oh and the reason the Bible gives for the 40 year walk about?...is to kill off the older generation that doubted God...

The new folk that entered the promised land, were the new generation. Why they couldn't be found? Still can't find 90 percent of Iraq's military armament "buried in the desert sands", and we have the best satellites in the world...I'm not surprised the Egyptians couldn't find the Hebrews. I also don't believe it was anywhere near 1,000,000. More like 50,000, just enough to keep a people viable.

But hey, I could be wrong.

[sonoman]

Do you have any idea how much food and water 50,000 people require per day? It is the forced belief in such improbable myths that create a religious cult in the first place but we are under no obligation to believe in religious cult myths unless, as I say, believing in religious myths is the only way you can anchor your faith.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by sonoman

Do you have any idea how much food and water 50,000 people require per day? It is the forced belief in such improbable myths that create a religious cult in the first place but we are under no obligation to believe in religious cult myths unless, as I say, believing in religious myths is the only way you can anchor your faith.

To survive as a relatively healthy being, A human male at 35 years of age requires 2 quarts of water, and 3 to 6 ounces of protein, 1.2 ounces of carbohydrates, 1.8 ounces of fiber, and preferred 2 ounces of ruffiage. That is it. Not even a pound of food (if it is the right food).

His waste byproduct is minimal.

A pregnant woman needs four times that much, and her waste is minimal. A child needs that same amount to grow in some sort of healthy fashion. Again, waste is minimal.

I know what is needed to survive. And I fail to see your point, concerning myths.