What is the Christian perspective of Muhammed (pbuh)?

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Oh, and I also think you doubt that Moses parted the Red Sea...but we know that it is possible.

Anything is possible for the one true god

[dailogue is the best]

Originally Posted by Alex P

Anything is possible for the one true god

This is true indeed, Alex. May God bless you...

Just I want to point out (and this is one of the Quran's prophecies Quahom asked for) that according to the Quran, God said that He would save the body of Moses's Pharoah as evidence for the latter generation of God' power.

Maurice Bucaille, a French scientist, of egyptology specialization, examined a mummy and he was truly amazed how the body was still having flesh, and in good state. After some experiments, he found that salt is the reason of preserving the body in good state. He declared this man had surely drowned. He was fully salty. He declared that this mummy is for sure is Moses's pharoah. He was really astonished. When he told his Muslim friends of his amazing discovery, they didnt get amazed as he did. They said: "ok. it may be. We have this mentioned in the Quran." This was the starting point of Maurice to make his scientific study of the Quran.

The preservation of Pharoah is a materilistic proof for those who dont believe in God's miracles, existence, and power.

The following video is showing Pharoah's body and talks sbout the Quran's prophecy of that:http:
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=twDsxrdYJys&feature=related

[dailogue is the best]

YouTube - Reservation of Pharaoh's Body Dr Maurice Bucaille And Yusuf Estes

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

This is true indeed, Alex. May God bless you...

Just I want to point out (and this is one of the Quran's prophecies Quahom asked for) that according to the Quran, God said that He would save the body of Moses's Pharoah as evidence for the latter generation of God' power.

Maurice Bucaille, a French scientist, of egyptology specialization, examined a mummy and he was truly amazed how the body was still having flesh, and in good state. After some experiments, he found that salt is the reason of preserving the body in good state. He declared this man had surely drowned. He was fully salty. He declared that this mummy is for sure is Moses's pharoah. He was really astonished. When he told his Muslim friends of his amazing discovery, they didnt get amazed as he did. They said: "ok. it may be. We have this mentioned in the Quran." This was the starting point of Maurice to make his scientific study of the Quran.

The preservation of Pharoah is a materilistic proof for those who dont believe in God's miracles, existence, and power.

The following video is showing Pharoah's body and talks sbout the Quran's prophecy of that:http:
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=twDsxrdYJys&feature=related

You definitely piqued my curiosity D, until I went and read the declaration of the "pharoh", in the Q'uran, before his death.

Islam did not exist until Mohammad came on the scene, yes? This was circa 652 AD/ACE yes?

So why would Pharoh claim to be a believer, and a "Muslim" when "Muslims" did not exist until 2000 years (conservative estimate), after the life of Moses?

Moses lived 1300/1500 BC/BCE...

Surah 90, 91, 92 is what I am looking at.

Indeed, that would be like saying there were Christians at the same time as Moses (1300 years before Christ walked the earth).

As an aside, before Mohammad, the Middle East Arabic peoples for the most part, were polytheistic in beliefs. Ramsese II (if he was the pharoh), was also polytheistic, with "RA" as the primary god of the Egyptians, not the Arabic peoples'.

The Q'uran can't clear up when Islam began:


"The Qur'an makes various contradictions about who the first Muslim was.
Some verses claim that the 'prophet' Muhammad was the first Muslim. For example, "He hath no associate. This am I commanded, and I [Muhammad] am the first of the Muslims." S. 6:163
At other times the Qur'an states Moses to be the first Muslim. "And Moses fell down senseless. And when he woke he said: Glory unto Thee! I turn unto Thee repentant, and I am the first of (true) believers." Sura 7:143.
And at other times Adam, Abraham and Jesus (all born before Muhammad) were claimed to be the first Muslims.
Because of the many contradictions in Qur'anic sources it can only be assumed that Islam started with Muhammad's claims of revelations in the 7th Century AD.
Answer


From the time of Abraham & Jacob;
2:132 The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).
or maybe from the time of Moses;
7:143 And Moses fell down senseless. And when he woke he said: Glory unto Thee! I turn unto Thee repentant, and I am the first of (true) believers. 39:12
or perhaps from the time of Muhammed;
And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him).
in any controversies, in this case there are three, all cannot be correct, but all can be incorrect.

Answer


Around 610, Muhammad ibn Abdullah (the Prophet), began to preach based on revelations he received. In 622 he journeyed with his followers to Yathrib (later Medina) in present day Saudi Arabia and became leader of his new community, or "umma." This inaugurated Year 1 of the Islamic Era. After more than 7 years of jihad, or holy war, against the Meccans and others who rejected his message, Muhammad and 10,000 followers were able to enter Mecca in triumph in 630. Mecca now became Islam's premier holy city, while Medina remained the political capital of the Umma.

If Pharoh believed in a single God, his was not the god of the Hebrews, as he declared himself. And as a "Muslim" if that is the case, the Pharoh admitted that the Hebrew God was the one true God.

I know Dialogue, that this is opening a can of worms, but you asked me to check out a "prophesy" as noted in the Q'uran. And I did, without ever referring to the Christian or Jewish scriptures...and now there are more questions than answers...

v/r

Q

[sonoman]

Unfortunately, I have found when Muslims are confronted with contradictions in the Quran with science and history, Muslims do the Sola Scripture number and then go, just like fundamentalist Christians also go, looking for and finding these screwy "facts" backing up their fundamentalist ideas because they will not admit time marches on and leaves even Muhammad' noble effort to corral credit for all human knowledge in himself in the archives as museum relics of primitive religious ideas.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by sonoman

Unfortunately, I have found when Muslims are confronted with contradictions in the Quran with science and history, Muslims do the Sola Scripture number and then go, just like fundamentalist Christians also go, looking for and finding these screwy "facts" backing up their fundamentalist ideas because they will not admit time marches on and leaves even Muhammad' noble effort to corral credit for all human knowledge in himself in the archives as museum relics of primitive religious ideas.

I did not quote one Judeac/Christian scripture...and I am no where near a Christian "fundementalist". I also do not find Dialogue to be a fundementalist Muslim...So your argument seems mute.

We are asking each other questions, and seeking answers.

v/r

Q

[dailogue is the best]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

You definitely piqued my curiosity D, until I went and read the declaration of the "pharoh", in the Q'uran, before his death.

Islam did not exist until Mohammad came on the scene, yes? This was circa 652 AD/ACE yes?

So why would Pharoh claim to be a believer, and a "Muslim" when "Muslims" did not exist until 2000 years (conservative estimate), after the life of Moses?

Moses lived 1300/1500 BC/BCE...

Surah 90, 91, 92 is what I am looking at.

Indeed, that would be like saying there were Christians at the same time as Moses (1300 years before Christ walked the earth).

As an aside, before Mohammad, the Middle East Arabic peoples for the most part, were polytheistic in beliefs. Ramsese II (if he was the pharoh), was also polytheistic, with "RA" as the primary god of the Egyptians, not the Arabic peoples'.

The Q'uran can't clear up when Islam began:


"The Qur'an makes various contradictions about who the first Muslim was.
Some verses claim that the 'prophet' Muhammad was the first Muslim. For example, "He hath no associate. This am I commanded, and I [Muhammad] am the first of the Muslims." S. 6:163
At other times the Qur'an states Moses to be the first Muslim. "And Moses fell down senseless. And when he woke he said: Glory unto Thee! I turn unto Thee repentant, and I am the first of (true) believers." Sura 7:143.
And at other times Adam, Abraham and Jesus (all born before Muhammad) were claimed to be the first Muslims.
Because of the many contradictions in Qur'anic sources it can only be assumed that Islam started with Muhammad's claims of revelations in the 7th Century AD.
Answer


From the time of Abraham & Jacob;
2:132 The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).
or maybe from the time of Moses;
7:143 And Moses fell down senseless. And when he woke he said: Glory unto Thee! I turn unto Thee repentant, and I am the first of (true) believers. 39:12
or perhaps from the time of Muhammed;
And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him).
in any controversies, in this case there are three, all cannot be correct, but all can be incorrect.

Answer


Around 610, Muhammad ibn Abdullah (the Prophet), began to preach based on revelations he received. In 622 he journeyed with his followers to Yathrib (later Medina) in present day Saudi Arabia and became leader of his new community, or "umma." This inaugurated Year 1 of the Islamic Era. After more than 7 years of jihad, or holy war, against the Meccans and others who rejected his message, Muhammad and 10,000 followers were able to enter Mecca in triumph in 630. Mecca now became Islam's premier holy city, while Medina remained the political capital of the Umma.

If Pharoh believed in a single God, his was not the god of the Hebrews, as he declared himself. And as a "Muslim" if that is the case, the Pharoh admitted that the Hebrew God was the one true God.

I know Dialogue, that this is opening a can of worms, but you asked me to check out a "prophesy" as noted in the Q'uran. And I did, without ever referring to the Christian or Jewish scriptures...and now there are more questions than answers...

v/r

Q

Originally Posted by Quahom1

You definitely piqued my curiosity D, until I went and read the declaration of the "pharoh", in the Q'uran, before his death.

Islam did not exist until Mohammad came on the scene, yes? This was circa 652 AD/ACE yes?

So why would Pharoh claim to be a believer, and a "Muslim" when "Muslims" did not exist until 2000 years (conservative estimate), after the life of Moses?

Moses lived 1300/1500 BC/BCE...

Surah 90, 91, 92 is what I am looking at.

Indeed, that would be like saying there were Christians at the same time as Moses (1300 years before Christ walked the earth).

As an aside, before Mohammad, the Middle East Arabic peoples for the most part, were polytheistic in beliefs. Ramsese II (if he was the pharoh), was also polytheistic, with "RA" as the primary god of the Egyptians, not the Arabic peoples'.

The Q'uran can't clear up when Islam began:


"The Qur'an makes various contradictions about who the first Muslim was.
Some verses claim that the 'prophet' Muhammad was the first Muslim. For example, "He hath no associate. This am I commanded, and I [Muhammad] am the first of the Muslims." S. 6:163
At other times the Qur'an states Moses to be the first Muslim. "And Moses fell down senseless. And when he woke he said: Glory unto Thee! I turn unto Thee repentant, and I am the first of (true) believers." Sura 7:143.
And at other times Adam, Abraham and Jesus (all born before Muhammad) were claimed to be the first Muslims.
Because of the many contradictions in Qur'anic sources it can only be assumed that Islam started with Muhammad's claims of revelations in the 7th Century AD.
Answer


From the time of Abraham & Jacob;
2:132 The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).
or maybe from the time of Moses;
7:143 And Moses fell down senseless. And when he woke he said: Glory unto Thee! I turn unto Thee repentant, and I am the first of (true) believers. 39:12
or perhaps from the time of Muhammed;
And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him).
in any controversies, in this case there are three, all cannot be correct, but all can be incorrect.

Answer


Around 610, Muhammad ibn Abdullah (the Prophet), began to preach based on revelations he received. In 622 he journeyed with his followers to Yathrib (later Medina) in present day Saudi Arabia and became leader of his new community, or "umma." This inaugurated Year 1 of the Islamic Era. After more than 7 years of jihad, or holy war, against the Meccans and others who rejected his message, Muhammad and 10,000 followers were able to enter Mecca in triumph in 630. Mecca now became Islam's premier holy city, while Medina remained the political capital of the Umma.

If Pharoh believed in a single God, his was not the god of the Hebrews, as he declared himself. And as a "Muslim" if that is the case, the Pharoh admitted that the Hebrew God was the one true God.

I know Dialogue, that this is opening a can of worms, but you asked me to check out a "prophesy" as noted in the Q'uran. And I did, without ever referring to the Christian or Jewish scriptures...and now there are more questions than answers...

v/r

Q

Look, Quahom1, it isnt as confusing as you thought.

According to the Quran, Islam is the religion that all prophets came with from Abraham to Muhamed, peace be upon them all.

Islam in Arabic means submission. So, all the prophets came with the same message, which is submission to the One and the Only God .

God says:2:136] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters (Muslims)."

NB: notice, Quahom1, that this translation used the term submitters as synonym of Muslims.

According to the Quran, Moses and Jesus peace be upon them came with the same message of Muhammed peace be upon him. It is after Moses and Jesus' death that people came to deviate their message from its real core. God sent Jesus to the people of Isreal to correct their message, and get them back to its real core as it was sent down to Moses by God. Unfortunately, after Jesus's death, people also came to deviate from Jesus's true message. Hence, God sent Muhammed peace upon him to play the same role that Jesus peace be upon him played with people of Israel.


I think now you could undesrtand the sentence "I m the first Muslim". For all the prophets were all the first Muslims (submitters to God) among their people. When Pharoah said: " "I believe that there is no god except the One in whom the Children of Israel have believed; I am a submitter (Muslim).(10:90)" he simply meant I am a submitter. Again the above translation used the term submitter instead of Muslim. They are maning the same.

Christianity and Judaism are humanmade terms. God says:"

[2:135] They said, "You have to be Jewish or Christian, to be guided." Say, "We follow the religion of Abraham - monotheism - he never was an idol worshiper."
Hope this makes things clearer, Quahom1.

PS: be sure, Quahom1, that I meant no offense. I ve just answered your question, and tell how things are explained in the Quran.

[sonoman]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I did not quote one Judeac/Christian scripture...and I am no where near a Christian "fundementalist". I also do not find Dialogue to be a fundementalist Muslim...So your argument seems mute.

We are asking each other questions, and seeking answers.

v/r

Q

Was I referring to you? My criticism of the Muslim tendency to find unscientific facts to back Muhammad's beliefs about things stands as my opinion of Dialogue's post about Egyptian pharaohs being "Muslims" which fits the paradigm I've outlined.

[sonoman]

"Islam in Arabic means submission. So, all the prophets came with the same message, which is submission to the One and the Only God ."

Dialogue, "Islam" does mean more than "submission". I believe it is one of histories great misfortunes that Muhammad did not understand the word he was using "Islam", to describe surrendering to the will of God because Muhammad left out the whole meaning of the word "shalom" or "salaam" which is at root in "Islam". In other words, Muhammad has taught Muslims to surrender to God but not to surrender to the will of God as peace. "Shalom" was originally the name of the evening star god worshiped at Jerusalem. Shalom stands for peace and it does not stand for "submission". Submission to God as peace. Not to submission to God as war. Why isn't the full meaning of "Islam" taught to Muslims? Do they not know it?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

Look, Quahom1, it isnt as confusing as you thought.

According to the Quran, Islam is the religion that all prophets came with from Abraham to Muhamed, peace be upon them all.

Islam in Arabic means submission. So, all the prophets came with the same message, which is submission to the One and the Only God .

God says:2:136] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters (Muslims)."

NB: notice, Quahom1, that this translation used the term submitters as synonym of Muslims.

According to the Quran, Moses and Jesus peace be upon them came with the same message of Muhammed peace be upon him. It is after Moses and Jesus' death that people came to deviate their message from its real core. God sent Jesus to the people of Isreal to correct their message, and get them back to its real core as it was sent down to Moses by God. Unfortunately, after Jesus's death, people also came to deviate from Jesus's true message. Hence, God sent Muhammed peace upon him to play the same role that Jesus peace be upon him played with people of Israel.


I think now you could undesrtand the sentence "I m the first Muslim". For all the prophets were all the first Muslims (submitters to God) among their people. When Pharoah said: " "I believe that there is no god except the One in whom the Children of Israel have believed; I am a submitter (Muslim).(10:90)" he simply meant I am a submitter. Again the above translation used the term submitter instead of Muslim. They are maning the same.

Christianity and Judaism are humanmade terms. God says:"

[2:135] They said, "You have to be Jewish or Christian, to be guided." Say, "We follow the religion of Abraham - monotheism - he never was an idol worshiper."
Hope this makes things clearer, Quahom1.

PS: be sure, Quahom1, that I meant no offense. I ve just answered your question, and tell how things are explained in the Quran.

That's fine, however the first question remains:

If pharoh was a believer and a Muslim before the incident at the Red Sea, then why would Pharoh admit that the "Hebrew God" was the one true God, and why not "Allah". And if he already believed that they were both the same God, why would God not accept Pharoh's plea and instead made an example of him (unless Pharoh was not Muslim, or Allah, is not the same as the Hebrew God)?

Further more, why would not Jewish scripture, or Christian OT not mention the preservation of the Pharoh's body as a promise by God (when their scripture is 700 to 1300 years earlier than the Q'uran?

And finally, if such a promise was made to Pharoh by God, who was there to hear it and record it? Remember, Pharoh's army a scribes were dead or on the other side of the water.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by sonoman

Dialogue, "Islam" does mean more than "submission". I believe it is one of histories great misfortunes that Muhammad did not understand the word he was using "Islam", to describe surrendering to the will of God because Muhammad left out the whole meaning of the word "shalom" or "salaam" which is at root in "Islam". In other words, Muhammad has taught Muslims to surrender to God but not to surrender to the will of God as peace. "Shalom" was originally the name of the evening star god worshiped at Jerusalem. Shalom stands for peace and it does not stand for "submission". Submission to God as peace. Not to submission to God as war. Why isn't the full meaning of "Islam" taught to Muslims? Do they not know it?

Sorry to be pedantic but .....

The word Islam is a verb not a noun and comes from the root word salama (SLM) and has 5 accepted meanings:

Surrender, Submission, Obedience, Purity/Sincerity and Peace.

May I ask why you think the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) would speak Hebrew and use it's given meanings? (I believe the word Shalom is from Hebrew coming from the root shin-lamed-mem .... right?) and I don't believe it was spoken by the Arabians, either then or now.

Please correct me if I am wrong but isn't Hebrew a complex language like Arabic and therefore the root of shalom has various meanings, one being peace but also including well being of an individual or group, complete or nothing broken.

[bob x]

The three-letter roots are the same in Hebrew and Arabic. The finer shades of meaning may not always be identical, however. Like, German "gut" and English "good" are the same word, with the same meaning; but German "klein" is the same word as English "clean" but the meanings have gone separate ways ("klein" is German for "little").

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by bob x

The three-letter roots are the same in Hebrew and Arabic. The finer shades of meaning may not always be identical, however. Like, German "gut" and English "good" are the same word, with the same meaning; but German "klein" is the same word as English "clean" but the meanings have gone separate ways ("klein" is German for "little").

Not really. Clean and klein both literally mean "lack of" with the silent noun being "dirt/negative". In other words "clean" and klein become statements all their own which mean without blemish or little blemish.

Just like Russian and english forms of the word "good/хорошо". They can both mean "It is good/that is good/fine/ok/got you/done/well done/nice/no problem...", based on how the speaker is using the word and the inflection and facial/body expressions that go with the utterance...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Sorry to be pedantic but .....

The word Islam is a verb not a noun and comes from the root word salama (SLM) and has 5 accepted meanings:

Surrender, Submission, Obedience, Purity/Sincerity and Peace.

May I ask why you think the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) would speak Hebrew and use it's given meanings? (I believe the word Shalom is from Hebrew coming from the root shin-lamed-mem .... right?) and I don't believe it was spoken by the Arabians, either then or now.

Please correct me if I am wrong but isn't Hebrew a complex language like Arabic and therefore the root of shalom has various meanings, one being peace but also including well being of an individual or group, complete or nothing broken.

Thanks for pointing out the (meaning) at the time of the Q'uran's original publication.

Coming from me, it would have been "lame".

[bob x]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Not really. Clean and klein both literally mean "lack of" with the silent noun being "dirt/negative".

No. They do not come from any root for "lack". Swedish "klaan" is the same word, but means "delicate". The point I was trying to make is that in related languages, the meaning of a word can somewhat drift: German "tapfer" is English "dapper" and German "brav" is English "brave"; however "tapfer" means "courageous" and "dapper" means "well-dressed", while "brav" means "well-dressed" although "brave" means "courageous". The root for "brav" and "brave" is borrowed from the Romance languages, and actually meant "well done" (BRAVO!); the root for "tapfer" and "dapper" is native Germanic, but apparently meant originally "of the upper classes".

THE POINT BEING: Hebrew "shalom" and Arabic "salaam" are, in fact, the exact same word, that is correct, and the same root that is found in "Islam; Muslim". However, that cannot be taken to guarantee that the finer shades of meaning applied to that root have stayed the same in Hebrew as in Arabic, and it is not safe to draw subtle conclusions about one language's usage of the root based on what the other language does.