What is the future of Islam?

[I, Brian]

There's been strong anti-US sentiment developing within Islam for decades, though - the whole Palestinian issue has been a pressure cooker on the issue of how the US has been perceived to be directly supporting the oppression of Palestinians.

True, it's a complex situation, and certainly not helped by the surrounding states forcing refugees into camps, rather than attempting full integration - a political games played by 2 halves.

But Muslim concerns about brothers and sisters being impoverished and even killed directly or indirectly as a result of US actions have been a breeding ground for hatred for a long time now - the tragedy is how it's been ignored or pushed aside in terms of foreign policy. After all, what kind of threat can Palestinians and their supporters be, if they don't have a huge military arsenal?

9/11 was supposed to be a wake up to that - but the West responded by invading two Muslim countries. Iraq under US control, now appears more violent than under Saddam Hussein, with civilians routinely targeted in bombing - but there are also reports in the media (if you watch out for them) about Iraqi civilians being randomly killed by US forces (military and security sub-contractors) at checkpoints.

The hate has been festering, continues to fester, and US actions are not addressing it. In fact, we have Iran up as a potential military target next (actually, this has been on the cards for years). Even if we see nothing more than cruise missile strikes on Iranian nuclear/military targets, the US will still come across as an oppressive military regime, intent on forcing itself on Muslims and make them suffer without regard. We're going to see this hate continue for a while.

The hate isn't a product of Islam - it's a product of brotherhood - the feeling of bonds and empathy with total strangers around the world, because of shared ideals and beliefs. We see brotherhood here among the Christians when Christianity and Christians are repressed anywhere around the world, we see it among the Baha'is when they hear of other Baha'is in Iran being maltreated. And we see it in Islam when fellow Muslims are seen to be trod upon by non-Muslims on the scale that we've seen over the past decade at least.

At some point, maybe someone working in foreign policy will figure out that when you hurt somebody with brothers, the brothers will feel for their pain. When you institutional a program of policy that is seen to be oppressive of many brothers, many more will become enraged.

2c for the morning.

[thipps]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I like the entheusiasm of Mohammed, when he wanted to combine all three faiths into one super faith. He really believed it was possible. He just didn't see the "trouble" that would cause.

explain.

[Light]

The hate has been festering, continues to fester, and US actions are not addressing it. In fact, we have Iran up as a potential military target next (actually, this has been on the cards for years). Even if we see nothing more than cruise missile strikes on Iranian nuclear/military targets, the US will still come across as an oppressive military regime, intent on forcing itself on Muslims and make them suffer without regard. We're going to see this hate continue for a while.

Well, in my personal opinion it is not hate that was demonstrated, but the will to survive in an unjust environment. As for Iran, it is clearly an act of fear from the west that an Islamic state have a WMD. They fear that it will be used irresponsibly. What about them? The use of dirty bombs? Phosporous bullet that eats into the skin? Is that legitimate?

For me, I trust an Islamic state more as they rule based on the teaching of the Quran. True, it may differ from country to country but the basic foundation is the same.

Muhammad, peace be upon him, teaches us the rule of engagement in war. Fight only again those who fight you. Do not burn houses or harm children or woman or people who are weak and old. Do not kill livestock. In war we were told to observe such rule, let alone in peace time.

If Iran have not been cooperating, why then do they voluntarily stop their nuclear research for three year. And they also still negotiating with Russia to find a way forward.

Iran even state that their nuclear program is for energy generation. Even their Imam has passed a fatwa that WMD is HARAM. Haram means it is a SIN (that puts you nearer to Hell) to do it. Iranian history shows me that they revered their Imam highly and all his fatwa is strictly adhered to. Why can't the west accept that?

What I mean is, why can't the west trust and respect other countries. And build trusting relationship eventhough it will be hard?

[thipps]

I think the even greater mistrust lies in the fact that the US,which is spearheading this whole thing with Iran, is the one nation that has actually dropped the atomic bomb. People see it as a double-standard. I do too.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Aidyl Nurhadi

Islam takes its followers seriously. If someone who has accepted it freely and then rejects it later, Islam will reprimend the person and try to correct him/her for his/her own sake. If we just let them go then we're doing injustice to them for not bringing them back to the truth.

If I were in Afghanistan, I would be more than willing to speak to that person and discuss with him why he has chosen Christianity above all else. And I'm sure I could bring him back to his senses, God willing. Unfortunately, I'm in Malaysia, rather far away from Afghanistan.

In Christianity, the modern approach is to let anyone and everyone make their own choices and you'lll just let them go just like that. That sir, is selfishness. If you indeed believe with your heart and soul that your religion is the righbt path, one which is the only way for salvation through Jesus Christ as you would put it then you would not just turn a blind eye knowing that that person is doomed to the pits of hell.

People living in Western countries have been through this stuff for centuries. If you keep insisting that people follow your religion, whether it is Judaism, Christianity or Islam, but they do not want to, there is no point going any further. A person that does not believe that your philosophy is the answer to life's problems is not going to keep listening to you. Not everybody wants to hear about our ideas on Islam or Christianity.

It's likely that they've heard a lot of it before and they've had enough. If one keeps insisting, it annoys them because you appear inconsiderate. You would appear inconsiderate because it seems like you don't understand that they don't want to know. They don't want to know about what you believe and why you believe your religion is so fantastic.

Life can also get quite busy and people just don't want to waste their time with a religion they haven't had time to appreciate fully. Your apostate friend would then ask, hey, what part of "I've given up on this religion did you not understand? Haven't I already told you 100 times?"

It's not because we don't care, but because we don't have the moral authority to command them to believe what we believe. In a country where your religion is not the majority, this is especially true. We can't go into to people's homes to present the next best argument on why Islam or Christianity should be followed. If we keep doing this next best argument thing people will become more resistant to our Gospel. They will hate it and we will have achieved nothing.

In a country where the majority of people are Muslim/Christian, this would not be a problem. The fact that most people in your neighbourhood are Muslim/Christian would probably be enough to make you revert because you simply don't belong to the rest of the group. I don't think this should be a reason for returning to a religion -- that your friends and family are Muslim/Christian. In other words, you have no choice. People should choose to be Muslim/Christian because they think it's right.

It's very hard for someone whose religion is a majority to get out of a religion, and it's also hard when your religion is a minority. If people think your religion is fantastic, you're forced to keep it by peer pressure. If they think your religion is rubbish, you're forced to leave it by peer pressure.

That's the power of group think.

It's easy to say that you should go and feed someone with reasons for keeping one's religion when one's religion is a majority but hard when it is a minority. I take my faith seriously, but I don't have the authority to feed it to someone if they don't like the meal I offer them. I don't think it's selfish at all. I think we are quite respectful and considerate of the people around us.

I don't think God will necessarily throw everyone else into hell. I think God has a way of accounting for everything that human beings have been powerless to accomplish. God doesn't simply rely on us. He has a backup plan. Anything we can't do, He can do.

[Aidyl Nurhadi]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

People living in Western countries have been through this stuff for centuries. If you keep insisting that people follow your religion, whether it is Judaism, Christianity or Islam, but they do not want to, there is no point going any further. A person that does not believe that your philosophy is the answer to life's problems is not going to keep listening to you. Not everybody wants to hear about our ideas on Islam or Christianity.

It's likely that they've heard a lot of it before and they've had enough. If one keeps insisting, it annoys them because you appear inconsiderate. You would appear inconsiderate because it seems like you don't understand that they don't want to know. They don't want to know about what you believe and why you believe your religion is so fantastic.

Life can also get quite busy and people just don't want to waste their time with a religion they haven't had time to appreciate fully. Your apostate friend would then ask, hey, what part of "I've given up on this religion did you not understand? Haven't I already told you 100 times?"

It's not because we don't care, but because we don't have the moral authority to command them to believe what we believe. In a country where your religion is not the majority, this is especially true. We can't go into to people's homes to present the next best argument on why Islam or Christianity should be followed. If we keep doing this next best argument thing people will become more resistant to our Gospel. They will hate it and we will have achieved nothing.

In a country where the majority of people are Muslim/Christian, this would not be a problem. The fact that most people in your neighbourhood are Muslim/Christian would probably be enough to make you revert because you simply don't belong to the rest of the group. I don't think this should be a reason for returning to a religion -- that your friends and family are Muslim/Christian. In other words, you have no choice. People should choose to be Muslim/Christian because they think it's right.

It's very hard for someone whose religion is a majority to get out of a religion, and it's also hard when your religion is a minority. If people think your religion is fantastic, you're forced to keep it by peer pressure. If they think your religion is rubbish, you're forced to leave it by peer pressure.

That's the power of group think.

It's easy to say that you should go and feed someone with reasons for keeping one's religion when one's religion is a majority but hard when it is a minority. I take my faith seriously, but I don't have the authority to feed it to someone if they don't like the meal I offer them. I don't think it's selfish at all. I think we are quite respectful and considerate of the people around us.

I don't think God will necessarily throw everyone else into hell. I think God has a way of accounting for everything that human beings have been powerless to accomplish. God doesn't simply rely on us. He has a backup plan. Anything we can't do, He can do.

Assalamu'alaikum,

1. In Islam it is the duty of every single able bodied Muslim to insist and correct its brothers and sisters to go straight and not to deter from the right path. There is no such thing as you mind your own business and I mind my own business in Islam. It is the duty of every Muslim to mind the business of other Muslims in matters concerning our faith. It comes to the concept of amar ma'ruf nahi mungkar, enjoin that which is good and forbid that which is evil.

2. You said that it is "LIKELY" that they've heard a lot of it before they've had enough. This is presumptuousness of the highest order. You're going to assume that that person has had enough instead of sharing your beliefs with him? You said that if you persist these rejectors you may 'APPEAR INCONSIDERET'...so that's your consideration about your faith? you're worried about your appearance....I see
You also said,"Life can also get quite busy and people just don't want to waste their time with a religion they haven't had time to appreciate fully." So what you're saying is that the 2 billion other Christians in this world are less busy than those who have left or do not accept Christianity? That is exactly what you statement means or imply. In Islam we have something called the 5 daily prayers in which we have to pray 5 times a day which only takes about 5 to 10 minutes each prayer. This doesn't stop Muslims from practising Islam or people to embrace Islam, howevere, 'busy' they may be.

3. You said,'It's not because we don't care, but because we don't have the moral authority to command them to believe what we believe. ' And you further explained about how propagation is effected due to population wise. I suggest you tell this to those 6000 full time crusaders of Christianity in Indonesia and 30 000 Christian crusaders in Africa and the thousands of Christian crusaders here in Malaysia and the thousands others around the world. You said we can't go into people's homes and preach our gospels.....Lol..that is precisely the number one method of Christian missionary practiced whether they are Catholic, Protestant or Jehovah Witness missionaries.

4. You said," In other words, you have no choice. People should choose to be Muslim/Christian because they think it's right." I disagree entirely with the first statement but I agree entirely with the second statement if it involves non-Muslims who have never practiced Islam. I have no choice? There is always a choice brother..in anything and everything.....the question is do you have what it takes to choose the right choices.....in your contribution you've basically whether with realisation or not summed up that propagation in Christianity is futile....if that is your choice and way of thinking, so be it. But don't try to make the rest of us swallow your methods.

5. You talked about peer pressure....Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. and his followers faced so much peer pressure in the early days of Islam, many were tortured and even killed....Islam was regarded by the majority dwellers of Mecca to be nothing more than garbage, yet despite the ill treatments they faced, not one gave his or her belief up in return for respite. This is the kind of spirit Muslims are asked to emulate. My question is why should any reasonable person sell himself to the pressures of his surroundings? Is that what happens to you? Your advice is that we're all suppose to follow the herd and what popularity demands.

6. You said,'I don't think God will necessarily throw everyone else into hell. I think God has a way of accounting for everything that human beings have been powerless to accomplish. God doesn't simply rely on us. He has a backup plan. Anything we can't do, He can do.' Well that's your personal belief and where did you get it from? It sure is not from the Bible...it is a fact and any priest, pastor, reverend, elder, deacon etc. worth the name will confirm to you in accordance to the precepts of Christianity that those who reject Jesus Christ will be sent to hell fire for all eternity. This is what the Bible says about those who reject faith(deceived by the devil) :
Rev 20:10 "The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night FOREVERE and EVER."
II Thess. 1:8-9: "in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"
Maybe, you'd like to disclaim these verses as fake or not the true words of God. I welcome you to do that with open arms .

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Aidyl Nurhadi

2. You said that it is "LIKELY" that they've heard a lot of it before they've had enough. This is presumptuousness of the highest order. You're going to assume that that person has had enough instead of sharing your beliefs with him? You said that if you persist these rejectors you may 'APPEAR INCONSIDERET'...so that's your consideration about your faith? you're worried about your appearance....I see

3. You further explained about how propagation is effected due to population wise. I suggest you tell this to those 6000 full time crusaders of Christianity in Indonesia and 30 000 Christian crusaders in Africa and the thousands of Christian crusaders here in Malaysia and the thousands others around the world. ...

I think we're talking about two different parts of the world here!!!! I was talking about what was happening in Western societies, not Africa, Malaysia or Afghanistan. Because of computers, technology and the Internet, the West has access to a diverse range of religious and spiritual views. Because of diversity, a lot of people have come to the conclusion that "it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you are sincere" or "all paths lead to God." This view pervades much of Western society. If you propose a view contrary to it, people are likely to think you're crazy or deluded. Because almost all religions teach people to do good, most believe that it really doesn't matter what religion you follow. It's not that they don't follow a religion at all, but society is supposed to leave the choice up to you. It's like food. At a restaurant you choose the course you want.

While people can still believe in "one truth," it is considered "social unhealthy" to say that your faith is better or more correct than somebody else's faith. Because all religions are considered equal by society, if an individual tries to push or impose this view on other's, it's arrogant and disrespectful. Individuals may believe in "one truth" but the society treats all religions as equal. The society is not the people. It is really just a framework within which people live. In such an environment, it's best to perhaps explain your experiences to people rather than presenting logical or systematic arguments about why one religion is more feasible.

It's not selfishness. It's respect. We don't meddle in other people's lives more than is acceptable or healthy. If we cross this line, we would come across as busy-bodies. That's at least how it works here. It may not apply in non-Western countries.

Originally Posted by Aidyl Nurhadi

4. You said," In other words, you have no choice. People should choose to be Muslim/Christian because they think it's right." I disagree entirely with the first statement but I agree entirely with the second statement if it involves non-Muslims who have never practiced Islam. I have no choice? There is always a choice brother..in anything and everything.....the question is do you have what it takes to choose the right choices.....in your contribution you've basically whether with realisation or not summed up that propagation in Christianity is futile.

5. . . . My question is why should any reasonable person sell himself to the pressures of his surroundings? Is that what happens to you? Your advice is that we're all suppose to follow the herd and what popularity demands.

Choice depends on the person!!!! You may have options, but you may not have the strength or resolve to execute them. If you're strong, you've got a choice. If you're weak, you have no choice. I didn't say that's how you're supposed to behave. I was saying that's how people would behave if they allowed others to dictate their lives for them.

Originally Posted by Aidyl Nurhadi

6. ... It is a fact and any priest, pastor, reverend, elder, deacon etc. worth the name will confirm to you in accordance to the precepts of Christianity that those who reject Jesus Christ will be sent to hell fire for all eternity....
2 Thess. 1:8-9: "in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"

When I said that I didn't believe God would necessarily throw "everyone else" into hell I was talking about those who are beyond reach of the Christian/Muslim communities around the world or those to whom Christians/Muslims have never had an opportunity to explain their faith properly. To these, I think God has a special way of reaching them.

While there are people who don't associate themselves with any community of Christians/Muslims, I am sure that if they sought God with all their hearts and didn't rely on any ideology or dogma they could, very well discover and come to know what the Gospel represented or meant. The Gospel is something abstract that doesn't need a Text. The Text is just a reminder of the Gospel. People like Paul, Peter, James and John knew the purpose and meaning of the Gospel. What we have in the Bible is what they taught their followers.

What divides us on the Gospel/Injil is, basically, Islam and Christianity.

[Aidyl Nurhadi]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

I think we're talking about two different parts of the world here!!!! I was talking about what was happening in Western societies, not Africa, Malaysia or Afghanistan. Because of computers, technology and the Internet, the West has access to a diverse range of religious and spiritual views. Because of diversity, a lot of people have come to the conclusion that "it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you are sincere" or "all paths lead to God." This view pervades much of Western society. If you propose a view contrary to it, people are likely to think you're crazy or deluded. Because almost all religions teach people to do good, most believe that it really doesn't matter what religion you follow. It's not that they don't follow a religion at all, but society is supposed to leave the choice up to you. It's like food. At a restaurant you choose the course you want.

While people can still believe in "one truth," it is considered "social unhealthy" to say that your faith is better or more correct than somebody else's faith. Because all religions are considered equal by society, if an individual tries to push or impose this view on other's, it's arrogant and disrespectful. Individuals may believe in "one truth" but the society treats all religions as equal. The society is not the people. It is really just a framework within which people live. In such an environment, it's best to perhaps explain your experiences to people rather than presenting logical or systematic arguments about why one religion is more feasible.

It's not selfishness. It's respect. We don't meddle in other people's lives more than is acceptable or healthy. If we cross this line, we would come across as busy-bodies. That's at least how it works here. It may not apply in non-Western countries.



Choice depends on the person!!!! You may have options, but you may not have the strength or resolve to execute them. If you're strong, you've got a choice. If you're weak, you have no choice. I didn't say that's how you're supposed to behave. I was saying that's how people would behave if they allowed others to dictate their lives for them.



When I said that I didn't believe God would necessarily throw "everyone else" into hell I was talking about those who are beyond reach of the Christian/Muslim communities around the world or those to whom Christians/Muslims have never had an opportunity to explain their faith properly. To these, I think God has a special way of reaching them.

While there are people who don't associate themselves with any community of Christians/Muslims, I am sure that if they sought God with all their hearts and didn't rely on any ideology or dogma they could, very well discover and come to know what the Gospel represented or meant. The Gospel is something abstract that doesn't need a Text. The Text is just a reminder of the Gospel. People like Paul, Peter, James and John knew the purpose and meaning of the Gospel. What we have in the Bible is what they taught their followers.

What divides us on the Gospel/Injil is, basically, Islam and Christianity.

1. Malaysia is a very diverse society with access to all modern facilities such as computers, the internet etc. We are America's 11th largest trading partner and an emerging economy with about 800 billion revenue annually or more. You suggested that we fall under the same category as africa and Afghanistan in terms of economy and diversity of races.....what an idiotic thing to do indeed...this is reflective of your lack of knowledge.

2. You're assuming that every single person who's abandoned Christianity has actually researched about the religion before coming to the conclusion that it does not suit them. I can give you lists of people, especially teenagers who abandon Christianity not because they've used the computer, the internet and a range of other ways to study Christianity but rather they don't really gie a damn. This is the end result of seperating church from state.

3. You erronuously stated, "its not that they don't follow a religion at all ..." America for one has the biggest number of athiests and most of these came from Christian backgrounds.

4. You said if anyone pushes his religion onto others it will be seen as something arrogant and disrespectful...No doubt about that at all...but who's suggesting that we should PUSH our beliefs into others? I'm certainly not saying that...what I'm suggesting is education. We should share and educate others about our beliefs to the best of our abilities, whether they harken and affirm, that's entirely up to them, but we should never stop trying.
You spoke of respect...I don't think you quite understand the meaning of the word respect...if respect is generated from keeping out of people's businesses, the world would come to utter ruin..if we adopt this crude definition of respect...if people wanted to commit suicide by your proposition it would disrespectful to tell and FORCE them not to do so....

5. You said ,'Choice depends on the person!!!! You may have options, but you may not have the strength or resolve to execute them. If you're strong, you've got a choice. If you're weak, you have no choice. I didn't say that's how you're supposed to behave. I was saying that's how people would behave if they allowed others to dictate their lives for them.' I'm gonna take this and bring it to my critical and creative thinking class Lol....very amusing assertions here....there is always a choice, whether a person considers the choices before him or chooses the right choice, that is ntirely up to him/her, but there are always choices..........the duty of the believer in Islam is to help people choose the right choice through encouragement and guidance.

6. You said and I quote,"When I said that I didn't believe God would necessarily throw "everyone else" into hell I was talking about those who are beyond reach of the Christian/Muslim communities around the world or those to whom Christians/Muslims have never had an opportunity to explain their faith properly. To these, I think God has a special way of reaching them." That's not what you said...Lol.....the thing is you can't explain the Christian concept of God putting everyone else into hell if they do not accept Christ as their Lord and saviour. It's a very oppressive ideology and you know it lol. In any case, you weren't TALKING about about those who are beyond reach of the Christian/Muslim communities around the world or those to whom Christians/Muslims have never had an opportunity to explain their faith properly. Make your stand more clearly the next time.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Aidyl Nurhadi

2. You're assuming that every single person who's abandoned Christianity has actually researched about the religion before coming to the conclusion that it does not suit them. I can give you lists of people, especially teenagers who abandon Christianity not because they've used the computer, the internet and a range of other ways to study Christianity but rather they don't really gie a damn.

4. You said if anyone pushes his religion onto others it will be seen as something arrogant and disrespectful...No doubt about that at all...but who's suggesting that we should PUSH our beliefs into others? I'm certainly not saying that...what I'm suggesting is education. We should share and educate others about our beliefs to the best of our abilities, whether they harken and affirm, that's entirely up to them, but we should never stop trying.

You spoke of respect...I don't think you quite understand the meaning of the word respect...if respect is generated from keeping out of people's businesses, the world would come to utter ruin..if we adopt this crude definition of respect...if people wanted to commit suicide by your proposition it would disrespectful to tell and FORCE them not to do so....

I've read the testimonies of a lot of people who chose a particular religion, some of them at CR. I don't think, from what I've read, that they "don't give a damn." I'm sure they're quite sincere about what they believe. They choose other religions like Buddhism, New Age and Wicca which don't say anything about people going to hell. One thing taught in Islam/Christianity is the notion of God rejecting certain people for not meeting certain requirements. I suppose choosing a direction that leads to rejection by God could be seen as "synonymous" with committing suicide. The problem begins when we say that not accepting a particular faith is the same as "committing suicide."

This is what most people don't accept. They consider it to be a "sick attitude." I'm not worried about people thinking I've got a "sick attitude," but it would simply be a barrier to sharing my faith properly if people thought I had one.

Originally Posted by Aidyl Nurhadi

6. You said and I quote,"When I said that I didn't believe God would necessarily throw "everyone else" into hell I was talking about those who are beyond reach of the Christian/Muslim communities around the world or those to whom Christians/Muslims have never had an opportunity to explain their faith properly. To these, I think God has a special way of reaching them." That's not what you said...Lol.....the thing is you can't explain the Christian concept of God putting everyone else into hell if they do not accept Christ as their Lord and saviour. It's a very oppressive ideology and you know it lol. In any case, you weren't TALKING about about those who are beyond reach of the Christian/Muslim communities around the world or those to whom Christians/Muslims have never had an opportunity to explain their faith properly. Make your stand more clearly the next time.

Actually, I was talking those who were beyond reach. I thought it was clear in the sense we were talking about sharing our faith with others. That's what I meant when I said "I don't think God will necessarily throw everyone else into hell." I was saying that I thought maybe He wouldn't do it to those people just because we didn't have a chance to share our faith.

Anyway, what I was responding to when I started, was this quote:

Originally Posted by Aidyl Nurhadi

In Christianity, the modern approach is to let anyone and everyone make their own choices and you'lll just let them go just like that. That sir, is selfishness. If you indeed believe with your heart and soul that your religion is the righbt path, one which is the only way for salvation through Jesus Christ as you would put it then you would not just turn a blind eye knowing that that person is doomed to the pits of hell.

From what I've read and heard, Christian missionary efforts are more intense in non-Western countries than in Western countries simply because Westerners are less receptive to Christianity due to past Christian influence. I am more aware of how faith-sharing takes place in Western countries than in non-Western ones. I am aware, in particular, of how many people tend to oppose the idea of "committing suicide" in terms of losing one's place in the afterlife.

In the meantime, perhaps you could share what you know about Muslim missionary efforts in the Western world. Islam, new to most people in the West, might be shared differently in the West than Christianity. Most people in the West know at least the general concept of Christianity. Getting beyond what people already know in general terms is a difficulty, especially if Christianity isn't about a systematic approach to life (people being saved by accepting Christ). When people know your faith in general terms, but aren't interested, they wouldn't be interested in getting deeper if it's not a systematic approach to life. I suppose it's therefore more likely for a person to be interested in Islam or Buddhism which are about a systematic approach to life.

During our discussion, you mentioned the intense Christian missionary efforts in places like Africa and Malaysia (which is what I thought to start with). As a result, I don't think it's a "don't care" attitude, but depends on the culture you live in. In a Western culture, for example, it might be difficult to share Christianity or even Islam since people tend to oppose the idea that we lose our place in the afterlife. As a result people tend to choose religions that either have no afterlife or no hell.

Originally Posted by Aidyl Nurhadi

1. Malaysia is a very diverse society with access to all modern facilities such as computers, the internet etc. We are America's 11th largest trading partner and an emerging economy with about 800 billion revenue annually or more. You suggested that we fall under the same category as africa and Afghanistan in terms of economy and diversity of races.....what an idiotic thing to do indeed...this is reflective of your lack of knowledge.

I think perhaps what I didn't convey properly was what made the Western approach to religion different to certain other cultures. In other words, I wasn't talking about economy or technology, or lack of wealth or technology. I was talking about Western culture. Perhaps I should have omitted what I said about computers and technology!!! No, I was not talking about technology or wealth, but Western culture. Africa, Afghanistan and Malaysia, for example, would not be "Western." I didn't associate Western culture with modern culture.

Perhaps what I really wanted to say was that Westerners generally don't believe in absolutes. This is what makes it hard to share one's faith in the West. The idea is that most people don't want to waste time discussing absolutes, which is something they don't believe in. I am not saying Westerners are better, but just that Westerners tend to be disillusioned about religion, especially those that are exclusive and say if you don't accept our way you are rejected by God. The Western world tends to be disillusioned, not just with religion, but even technology itself and life in general. Sure, it's wealthy and has lots of technology (and I'm not saying Malaysia doesn't), but there is so much competition in terms of making money and advancing technology. The need to compete is so great.

Sure, there are disillusioned people in other countries, but disillusionment about both technology and religion is something interesting, especially if you live in the richest and most technologically advanced countries in the world.

I suppose it's a bit of a paradox. Working hard at advancing technology to rid the need of religion, but at the same time, realising that technology isn't going to advance fast enough to solve our personal problems and deciding we need religion anyway.

Anyway, nice talking to you, Aidyl. I just thought I might share my experiences of the culture in a Western world. I'm not sure what it's like for Islam in the West, I tend to be more familiar with how Christianity does in the West -- in particular with the idea of losing one's place in the afterlife.

[Aidyl Nurhadi]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

I've read the testimonies of a lot of people who chose a particular religion, some of them at CR. I don't think, from what I've read, that they "don't give a damn." I'm sure they're quite sincere about what they believe. They choose other religions like Buddhism, New Age and Wicca which don't say anything about people going to hell. One thing taught in Islam/Christianity is the notion of God rejecting certain people for not meeting certain requirements. I suppose choosing a direction that leads to rejection by God could be seen as "synonymous" with committing suicide. The problem begins when we say that not accepting a particular faith is the same as "committing suicide."

This is what most people don't accept. They consider it to be a "sick attitude." I'm not worried about people thinking I've got a "sick attitude," but it would simply be a barrier to sharing my faith properly if people thought I had one.



Actually, I was talking those who were beyond reach. I thought it was clear in the sense we were talking about sharing our faith with others. That's what I meant when I said "I don't think God will necessarily throw everyone else into hell." I was saying that I thought maybe He wouldn't do it to those people just because we didn't have a chance to share our faith.

Anyway, what I was responding to when I started, was this quote:



From what I've read and heard, Christian missionary efforts are more intense in non-Western countries than in Western countries simply because Westerners are less receptive to Christianity due to past Christian influence. I am more aware of how faith-sharing takes place in Western countries than in non-Western ones. I am aware, in particular, of how many people tend to oppose the idea of "committing suicide" in terms of losing one's place in the afterlife.

In the meantime, perhaps you could share what you know about Muslim missionary efforts in the Western world. Islam, new to most people in the West, might be shared differently in the West than Christianity. Most people in the West know at least the general concept of Christianity. Getting beyond what people already know in general terms is a difficulty, especially if Christianity isn't about a systematic approach to life (people being saved by accepting Christ). When people know your faith in general terms, but aren't interested, they wouldn't be interested in getting deeper if it's not a systematic approach to life. I suppose it's therefore more likely for a person to be interested in Islam or Buddhism which are about a systematic approach to life.

During our discussion, you mentioned the intense Christian missionary efforts in places like Africa and Malaysia (which is what I thought to start with). As a result, I don't think it's a "don't care" attitude, but depends on the culture you live in. In a Western culture, for example, it might be difficult to share Christianity or even Islam since people tend to oppose the idea that we lose our place in the afterlife. As a result people tend to choose religions that either have no afterlife or no hell.



I think perhaps what I didn't convey properly was what made the Western approach to religion different to certain other cultures. In other words, I wasn't talking about economy or technology, or lack of wealth or technology. I was talking about Western culture. Perhaps I should have omitted what I said about computers and technology!!! No, I was not talking about technology or wealth, but Western culture. Africa, Afghanistan and Malaysia, for example, would not be "Western." I didn't associate Western culture with modern culture.

Perhaps what I really wanted to say was that Westerners generally don't believe in absolutes. This is what makes it hard to share one's faith in the West. The idea is that most people don't want to waste time discussing absolutes, which is something they don't believe in. I am not saying Westerners are better, but just that Westerners tend to be disillusioned about religion, especially those that are exclusive and say if you don't accept our way you are rejected by God. The Western world tends to be disillusioned, not just with religion, but even technology itself and life in general. Sure, it's wealthy and has lots of technology (and I'm not saying Malaysia doesn't), but there is so much competition in terms of making money and advancing technology. The need to compete is so great.

Sure, there are disillusioned people in other countries, but disillusionment about both technology and religion is something interesting, especially if you live in the richest and most technologically advanced countries in the world.

I suppose it's a bit of a paradox. Working hard at advancing technology to rid the need of religion, but at the same time, realising that technology isn't going to advance fast enough to solve our personal problems and deciding we need religion anyway.

Anyway, nice talking to you, Aidyl. I just thought I might share my experiences of the culture in a Western world. I'm not sure what it's like for Islam in the West, I tend to be more familiar with how Christianity does in the West -- in particular with the idea of losing one's place in the afterlife.

lol very long convoluted contribution that have drawn much wool over our eyes.You said and I quote," Actually, I was talking those who were beyond reach. I thought it was clear in the sense we were talking about sharing our faith with others. That's what I meant when I said "I don't think God will necessarily throw everyone else into hell." I was saying that I thought maybe He wouldn't do it to those people just because we didn't have a chance to share our faith." Do you understand English mate? Do you know what the word "said" or the phrase "was talking" mean? Lol...you didn't say or talk about those BEYOND REACH..all you said was "I don't think God will necessarily throw everyone else into hell"...whether people BEYOND REACH is what you meant by "everyone else" or not, only God and you know. The point is that the BEYOND REACH assertion was inserted in your later contribution. If you still want to dispute about it, go ahead. Men can be very egoistic at times. I will understand.

You said and I quote,"From what I've read and heard, Christian missionary efforts are more intense in non-Western countries than in Western countries simply because Westerners are less receptive to Christianity due to past Christian influence. " You've not read enough...yes it's true Westerners are less receptive of Christianity nowadays. This is due to a VARIETY of reasons and not just because of Christianity's smudged and scarred history. If you want examples of why Westerners, those raised in Christian families reject Christianity, I will be more than happy to concede and present. Just contact me at aidyl_man_of_faith@hotmail.com on msn messenger and we could have a little dialogue. Anyway...the MAIN reason for Christian missionaries to go crusading in the lands of the East is not just due to the growing unpopularity of the religion in the West but also due to the backwardness of the target areas in which these crusaders land into. In Indonesia, Africa, China, Malaysia, the Middle East their primary customers are the indigent and the indigene. In Malaysia for instance, to 'catch fish' they venture into the wilderness and remote villages in Sabah and Sarawak, making parties and offering presents among other numerous extortions for the animistic "Orang Asli" before 'sharing' the 'message'...these people are secluded and cut off from access to information and are practically oblivious to the happenings of the world. These are the primeire victims of the missionaries outside of the West. They do not preach to educated people as openly or directly as they do with the indigene. They've got other ingenius means and tactics for these intellectual lot. These could be discussed further if you'd add me on msn .

You asked me to share with you what the missionary efforts exerted by the Muslims are like. I'm ashamed to say that our efforts are not as extreme or active as yours. One good thing though, wee do not make it a point to go knocking into people's private lives and offer them bribery before we share our Islam with them. Most of us do not have the means to do so anyway. The bulk of the Muslim world, the majority of us..just do not know how to convey the message effectively and many can't even speak English or the local languages of the non-believers. We do have da'wah(this is perhaps the closest Arabic equivalent to the word missionary, though it has a more wholesome meaning to it) centres and bodies as well as courageous and intellectual speakers such as the former Ahmed Deedat, Dr. Zakir Naik, Yusuf Estes(former Christian pastor), Yusuf Islam(Cat Stevens) and many others. But most of us just don't do the job or do not realise the importance of doing da'wah. The Bible has been translated into 2000 different languages. The Qur'an would hardly come close to that for the simple fact that we do not believe that it is wise to just translate the Qur'an for the sake of translating it. Yet Islam still grows...exponentially too if I might add....some erroneously point that it's only due to the rapid birth rates in Muslim societies, but in fact there are so many reverts to Islam out there that I could hardly count them with my fingers and toes.

Yes I do concur that the modern West has an entirely different approach to religion, one which is doing much damage to Christianity and opening great doors for atheism and paganism. Wiicca for example is gaining popularity among the kids in America, thanks to fantasy genres such as Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings and so on. Authors like Silver RavenWolf has taken this hype about magic as an opportunity to spread her ideas and notions. By the way I'm a big fan of HP and Lotr, but I don't abandon my religion for the sake of a wand. All right, I think I've given more than enough words here lol and I really must be going. I look forward for your feedback and may Allah S.W.T guide us all to the right path.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Aidyl Nurhadi

Yes I do concur that the modern West has an entirely different approach to religion, one which is doing much damage to Christianity and opening great doors for atheism and paganism. Wiicca for example is gaining popularity among the kids in America, thanks to fantasy genres such as Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings and so on. Authors like Silver RavenWolf has taken this hype about magic as an opportunity to spread her ideas and notions. By the way I'm a big fan of HP and Lotr, but I don't abandon my religion for the sake of a wand. All right, I think I've given more than enough words here lol and I really must be going. I look forward for your feedback and may Allah S.W.T guide us all to the right path.

It should be noted that in the Americas, "nature worship" (similar to Wicca), has been practiced long before "Christians" ever arrived on scene (in fact well before Christianity or Islam ever existed for that matter). It should also be noted that these "nature worshipping" peoples lived relatively peaceful lives with each other and their neighbors. They also had a very strong connection with a "father God" figure.

There is nothing new, only cycles that wax and wane.

2c

v/r

Q

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Aidyl Nurhadi

lol very long convoluted contribution that have drawn much wool over our eyes.You said and I quote," Actually, I was talking those who were beyond reach. I thought it was clear in the sense we were talking about sharing our faith with others. That's what I meant when I said "I don't think God will necessarily throw everyone else into hell." I was saying that I thought maybe He wouldn't do it to those people just because we didn't have a chance to share our faith." Do you understand English mate? Do you know what the word "said" or the phrase "was talking" mean? Lol...you didn't say or talk about those BEYOND REACH.......The point is that the BEYOND REACH assertion was inserted in your later contribution. If you still want to dispute about it, go ahead. Men can be very egoistic at times. I will understand.

Never mind the precise details on what I said in my posts. I am discussing, not disputing. What I meant by "everyone else" was, actually "those beyond reach." I didn't expect that someone reading my posts would pick at flaws in my post as I was simply sharing my experiences and what I knew.

Absense of a point, or failure to address a point does not necessarily constitute ignorance, but simply failure to communicate. In life we see different things as important and neglect everything else. When we express ourselves, it becomes evident in what we say or do. Often, even though what we say is not perfect, the intention is clear. Sometimes, even our intentions are not conveyed properly.

When I post, I post my point of view. Whatever we post, it's just an incomplete picture not only of the universe in which we live, but also what we know and have experienced. I don't know the life experiences that have resulted in the view you have now, and you don't know mine. As for my awareness and your awareness of issues in Western society, you don't really know how much I know, and I don't really know how much you know. Unless we have spent 1,000 hours discussing this we will not have a clue what the other person knows.

We often expect people to understand us because we believe that what we think is universal. We assume that they would have the same view if they were functioning correctly as human beings. We find, upon talking to them, that they really don't think the same way. It's because their life experiences are totally different.

Different people seek different kinds of religions. Some are systematic, ideological, concrete and dogmatic. Others seek something sentimental, mystical, naturalistic or abstract. Some have a simplistic and straightforward approach to the concept of God. Others are meticulous and discerning in their concept of God. Each group/individual may think of its own view as universal.

So don't focus too much on the details, loopholes, flaws and errors. Just explore. See the person not the problems. My goal is to absorb what has value and discard everything else.

Final comment. It's true that I am male. I have an ego. I can be stubborn too. I am sure you understood this. Thanks, I needed that. Ouch that hurt. Why did you have to hurt my feelings?

[Seeker_of_truth]

Originally Posted by Zazen

well, i feel in your assumption of Chinas role in "wwIII" you are sorely mistaken, for one China is the oldest civilization in the world and it is not because they are so big, or because somehow the chinese seem to live for a real long time or because they have strong kung fu

it is because China, as a nation, has always upheld a "walk the middle path" philosophy, which simply means..they keep to themselves..of course China has had its fair share of change occur over the millenia, regardless this general philosophy has existed throughout its entire history

now, some can point a finger and say, well what about Chinas role in the korean war? or the vietnam war, well simply put it was a brand new China, they were communists helping out other Communists like Communists always do, but over the decades China has changed drastically, including its foreign relations with the U.S.

now it is a known fact that China, as a general population still today upholds the "middle path" philosophy, so i seriously doubt..as a scholar of China and its people, that they will be engaging in any mass murder of the middle eastern countries, which they have no part of anyway, well except for maybe some illegal weapons deals, but then again, as i say China has changed and it is still a third world country..

anyway, nough said about China

imho, i dont really know enough about islam to say where it will go because really i got no damn idea where its been..i will say this though, 9/11 has opened up alot of peoples eyes to islam ingeneral, atleast more people know about it! because i tell ya, i didnt know diddly squat before the towers fell..now i know a vast amount more...

amitabha

You are sorely mistaken if you feel you learned something about Islam after 9/11 my friend.

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by Seeker_of_truth

You are sorely mistaken if you feel you learned something about Islam after 9/11 my friend.

May I assume that Islam subscribes to religious rationality? ... a tenet of spiritual transcendence that asserts that truthfulness and rationality in religions are truths that can be substantiated by science or those that can not be proven to be incorrect. It dictates that spiritual interaction is only possible between the Spirit of God and the spirit of man; claims of supernatural acts performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are not prudent.

If all religions would agree thereto, then interreligious unity could be established....end result, peace.

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

At some point, maybe someone working in foreign policy will figure out that when you hurt somebody with brothers, the brothers will feel for their pain. When you institutional a program of policy that is seen to be oppressive of many brothers, many more will become enraged.

How true...and to think that we are all, just tiny energy bubbles within a larger energy bubble called Earth, which is a small bubble within the universe...and we, intellectual mankind, create our own problems and wars..and kill our own brothers.