what is the gospel?

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi JosephM - and welcome.

And the Word (logos) was made flesh (sarx), and dwelt among us.
John 1:14

Thomas

Yes...

And thank you also for the welcome Thomas.
JM

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Thomas

There seems to be a constant resistance to 'being told what to think' - but I don't think that's quite what the creed is about.

I don't think it's necessarily resistance to "being told what to think," but it may also be a fear that alignment with a Creed could also be alignment with the wrong entity. If God wants us to be aligned with Christ, it wouldn't be appropriate to make a Creed more important than Christ especially if different individuals can approach the same Christ some other way without need of the same Creed. Insisting on people following the same Creed would make Christ secondary in the faith. Creeds, I guess, can be idolised.

I'm not being cynical here. About one or two years ago I read a book on "world religions" from a Christian perspective. What I got out of that book was the impression that different denominations in Christianity, could, quite easily be critical of each other on the basis of certain "technicalities." On the surface, these "technicalities" could be seen as undermining the whole notion of Christ, but at the same time, the people possessing these beliefs might simply have a slightly different, but still legitimate approach to the mystery of Christ. The challenge is to see the difference between an idea that undermines the notion of Christ and one that is simply a different approach to his Mystery.

As I said, we see the same Messiah differently, but yet he's the same Messiah.

Originally Posted by Thomas

If someone says, "what is it you believe?" then the Christian should be able to answer, not profoundly necessarily, but offer an answer ... but what happens when the inquirer asks, and everybody has a different story? OK if the differences are 'inconsequential', or personal, but what happens when someone says "He is the Incarnate Logos," and another says "He was a wise man"? ...
.....................
The point is, only one of the above four can be right - this is not a different way of approaching the mystery, its fundamentally being mistaken ... that's the point
..................
Now there were those who did not accept the data of revelation, did not accept the message, but rather picked through it to see what they could make use of ... to recast scripture to fit their pre-conceived notions ............................... Have they no right to say no, that is not what we believe?"

Christ said many things, but he never said 'anything goes...'

I agree, but it depends how we approach it. Christ is the central concept, it's a concept we are intent on preserving. But at the same time, if we do it the wrong way, we're no longer preserving it, but undermining it.

Perhaps the most dangerous element is conformity. It's easy to think that lack of conformity is the danger, but conformity itself is a danger too. When people stop conforming to standards expected of them, they no longer feel like they're a part of the community, so they drop out. That's because they've spent their whole lives conforming to what the rest of the community follows that they don't believe they can still remain without conforming. The challenge is to let people know that they can still be a part of the community even though they don't do things the same way everybody else in the community does it.

There's this unwritten code that if you consider yourself a part of a church or congregation, you must conform. You must do it their way. Yet, if we all live for Christ, there should be no problem. Even if they're not aligned with Christ the way they should be, if we accept them, it will be an opportunity for both the insiders and the newcomers to explore the issue. It takes a lifetime to appreciate a religion, so let's give them the time. Not everybody can explain everything at once. We don't have all the answers now.

Not everybody has figured out their own reasoning for whether Jesus should be Incarnate Logos or just a great man. Some will choose the former, some the latter. We can't blame either for choosing one of them, because with our limited human knowledge and experience, we can't prove whether one is better or more valid than the other. You can't be blamed for choosing or not choosing at all!!! We have to give each other time to explore the issue, not separately, but together. Not divided, but as one.

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Not everybody has figured out their own reasoning for whether Jesus should be Incarnate Logos or just a great man. Some will choose the former, some the latter. We can't blame either for choosing one of them, because with our limited human knowledge and experience, we can't prove whether one is better or more valid than the other. You can't be blamed for choosing or not choosing at all!!! We have to give each other time to explore the issue, not separately, but together. Not divided, but as one.

The whole point of a Christian church is to worship God. Whether we believe in the Trinity or not, we still believe that Jesus Christ is God, and we worship Him. It is difficult to imagine any sense of "oneness" with those who do not believe likewise. Of course, we can socialize with everyone as fellow human beings, and treat them with respect.

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

(snip)
Perhaps the most dangerous element is conformity. It's easy to think that lack of conformity is the danger, but conformity itself is a danger too. When people stop conforming to standards expected of them, they no longer feel like they're a part of the community, so they drop out. That's because they've spent their whole lives conforming to what the rest of the community follows that they don't believe they can still remain without conforming. The challenge is to let people know that they can still be a part of the community even though they don't do things the same way everybody else in the community does it.

There's this unwritten code that if you consider yourself a part of a church or congregation, you must conform. You must do it their way. Yet, if we all live for Christ, there should be no problem. Even if they're not aligned with Christ the way they should be, if we accept them, it will be an opportunity for both the insiders and the newcomers to explore the issue. It takes a lifetime to appreciate a religion, so let's give them the time. Not everybody can explain everything at once. We don't have all the answers now.

Not everybody has figured out their own reasoning for whether Jesus should be Incarnate Logos or just a great man. Some will choose the former, some the latter. We can't blame either for choosing one of them, because with our limited human knowledge and experience, we can't prove whether one is better or more valid than the other. You can't be blamed for choosing or not choosing at all!!! We have to give each other time to explore the issue, not separately, but together. Not divided, but as one.

I believe you have made some most excellent points here Saltmeister.

None that I know receives all wisdom instantaneously. Even Jesus is recorded as 'growing' in all knowlege and wisdom. Some read a book and think they have it all in black and white. But I have found that not to be so. Christ is a living spirit and as you say 'unity' is preferred over division. If we have received something from Christ, others are well able to do the same in their time. Thanks again for your most excellent post.

Love in Christ,
JM

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by kenod

The whole point of a Christian church is to worship God. Whether we believe in the Trinity or not, we still believe that Jesus Christ is God, and we worship Him. It is difficult to imagine any sense of "oneness" with those who do not believe likewise. Of course, we can socialize with everyone as fellow human beings, and treat them with respect.

Jesus originally came for the benefit of the Jews (not the other 11 tribes of Israel, and not for the other gentiles on earth). But then a strange thing happened. He was rejected by the Jews, yet accepted by the gentile...so He opened His arms wide and pretty much stated "any who wish to be grafted on the tree of life, are welcome".

Hence the four Gospels, which reach out to different groups of people. One is written for the Jews specfically. The other three are written for the gentile. But one, in particular is written for all men. In otherwords anyone can understand what is being told us. Why?, because it appeals to the child in all of us. It is simple, without complexity, or cryptic requirements for understanding the times, or the mind set of a particular people...

Which Gospel am I describing?

v/r

Q

[Terrence]

The gosel is that God is a consuming fire of holiness and humanity are evil and wicked when compared to Him. God has given us His Laws (Ten Commandments) to show us what He considers good and we've broken them all and prove that we're evil. We dare not die in our depraved state, else God who is Holy will be forced to give us justice, because no sin can be were He is. God hates sin and punishes and kills because of it. God is Holy, Perfect, and Pure. Sin is wicked, evil and unholy - the opposite of God. This is why God hates sin, it stands for everything that God isnt.

God is also Kind and Meciful. God sent His Son Jesus, to suffer the consequences of our sins (crimes and lawlessness against God) so that we may have Christ's prefection credited to our account and thus be made able to be in God's presence. Its the kindest thing anyone has ever done for you. We broke the law and Christ paid the fine, its as simple as that. If you repent of your sins (stop living for yourself and live for God by turning away from sins) and then Trust in Jesus, you will be saved. Thats the gospel and its really good news once you see yourself in light of God's Laws.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Terrence

The gosel is that God is a consuming fire of holiness and humanity are evil and wicked when compared to Him. God has given us His Laws (Ten Commandments) to show us what He considers good and we've broken them all and prove that we're evil. We dare not die in our depraved state, else God who is Holy will be forced to give us justice, because no sin can be were He is. God hates sin and punishes and kills because of it. God is Holy, Perfect, and Pure. Sin is wicked, evil and unholy - the opposite of God. This is why God hates sin, it stands for everything that God isnt.

God is also Kind and Meciful. God sent His Son Jesus, to suffer the consequences of our sins (crimes and lawlessness against God) so that we may have Christ's prefection credited to our account and thus be made able to be in God's presence. Its the kindest thing anyone has ever done for you. We broke the law and Christ paid the fine, its as simple as that. If you repent of your sins (stop living for yourself and live for God by turning away from sins) and then Trust in Jesus, you will be saved. Thats the gospel and its really good news once you see yourself in light of God's Laws.

The hellfire and brimstone approach is not going to cut it. People are already acutely aware of their own shortcomings. They can't even forgive themselves, last thing they need is a Bible of punishment weighing another ton, landing on their heads.

One can not put the fear of God into one who hold's God in contempt to begin with. Only God can do that. And preaching to a "Christian Choir" isn't exactly efficient...

v/r

Q

[Terrence]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

The hellfire and brimstone approach is not going to cut it. People are already acutely aware of their own shortcomings. They can't even forgive themselves, last thing they need is a Bible of punishment weighing another ton, landing on their heads.

One can not put the fear of God into one who hold's God in contempt to begin with. Only God can do that. And preaching to a "Christian Choir" isn't exactly efficient...

v/r

Q

"Have you seen some of these choirs? They need to be preached to - there's heathens in the pews." OK...I heard that in a song. But, it applies here. As far as hell fire preaching. The first thing to consider is that NO ONE can make a person a Christian. Being born again is like being born the first time in that you have zero to do with it. You didnt choose where you'd be born, your family, or your skin color. All you know is that it happened and you experienced it. Being born agian is like that. God does it and when it occures you will experience it. The second thing to consider is that we should be very afarid of hell. Hell is not a joke and Jesus died to save sinners from that horrorfic reality. The last thing to consider is, if you come to Jesus to excape hell, you might have missed it. Christians arent fear filled converts, but instead tear filled converts. We've seen ourselves the way God sees us apart from Christ and we see that we deserve God's wrath. But, we also see God's love displayed in the cross of Christ and we humbly weep over our bleeding savior who both died and rose to save us from our sins.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Terrence

"Have you seen some of these choirs? They need to be preached to - there's heathens in the pews." OK...I heard that in a song. But, it applies here. As far as hell fire preaching. The first thing to consider is that NO ONE can make a person a Christian. Being born again is like being born the first time in that you have zero to do with it. You didnt choose where you'd be born, your family, or your skin color. All you know is that it happened and you experienced it. Being born agian is like that. God does it and when it occures you will experience it. The second thing to consider is that we should be very afarid of hell. Hell is not a joke and Jesus died to save sinners from that horrorfic reality. The last thing to consider is, if you come to Jesus to excape hell, you might have missed it. Christians arent fear filled converts, but instead tear filled converts. We've seen ourselves the way God sees us apart from Christ and we see that we deserve God's wrath. But, we also see God's love displayed in the cross of Christ and we humbly weep over our bleeding savior who both died and rose to save us from our sins.

Ok, but who are you preaching to here? Most of us here on the Christianity forum are Christian...

Here is where you talk amongst peers about your thoughts, hopes, misgivings, disappointments, fears, and seek encouragement. Here you can debate, discuss variations of Christianity (the bible based core), teach and learn...even answer questions from those that are not Christian but are curious...

Here you sometimes can help console (I've seen that on many occasions).

That is where you are at, when you are in the Christian Forum of CR.

v/r

Q