What is the soul?

[WHKeith]

Various cultures have defined words translated as "soul" and "spirit" in very different ways. My favorite is ancient Egypt, which had a number--6, I believe? I'd have to go check--of noncorporeal critters running around inside a living body. Among these, the best known were the ka--a spiritual double that hung aorund in the tomb after death and for which grave goods, food, models, etc. were provided--and the ba, usuallky translated as "soul," a little critter visualized as a bird with the dead person's head and face that flew off after death.

When I was a Pentacostal Christian, many moons ago, some distinction was made in my church between the human soul and spirit. The idea was to show humans to be a kind of trinity, just like The Big Three In One. In that version, "soul" tended to be the kind of animal instinct we possess; Jung's "anuimus" comes to mind. Spirit was the Christ-essence within us. Or was it the other way 'round?

Nowadays, I keep things simple for myself. For me, now--and this is not a definition set I would inflict on anyone else--"soul" is the on-going "true self," the part that keeps reincarnating in order to learn certain lessons it sets for itself, while "spirit" is a good generic term for ANY noncorporeal entity, including ghosts (which may be a kind of a "psychic echo" or residue rather than the actual soul of a dead person), guides, guardians, angelic beings, demons, and astral-dwelling critters that have absolutely NOTHING in common with humans.

In that definition, all souls are spirits, but not all spirits are souls.

At least, so *I* see it.

[AerylonBlackwolf]

What is the soul? A question that has plagued humans since the dawn of time. If you were to ask a Buddhist what a sould is, he would tell you the soul is the man himself, his heart, his mind, his spirit, and in some cases his honor. If you were to ask a scientist what a soul was, you would get told that it was some philosophical entity that had unknown energy patterns, that is; if he didn't laugh at you first.

If you ask a christian, he/she would tell you that this is the eternal embodiement of your inner being. The thing that which god gave to us in the beginning.

If you ask a Taoist, he/she would say something to you about karma and the afterlife.

The question shouldn't be "what is the soul?"...the question should be...What is a soul to you? Personally. To each of us, words that have spiritual sentiment usually mean different things to different people. Even the generalized "angels" of todays popularity contests.

Each generation are born people who KNOW what spirituality means. What it really means. Not what someone's idea of spirituality means. In other words, even though we may not believe something, doesn't make it true or false. It makes it true or false to us.

So for each one of us every single day...we wake up, we have our morning/daily/nightly rituals without so much as a second thought to the world that is beneath the surface of the eyes of man.

Those people that are born try to sway others to the realization, but for some reason, over the centuries, these teachings, right or wrong get swayed themselves by the very people who brings the message to others.

Either way, when you ask a question as such, you should also ask others, and yourself, what is it I BELIEVE? When you truly know that, you will be ahead of the game.

Just a few thoughts of my own. And seeing as this is my first official post, here, I was invited here by a friend, so I bid you all a good and fond hello. I hope to be around a while.

Thanks wh.

Aerylon Blackwolf.

[AerylonBlackwolf]

And by the way: Happy Fourth of July everyone!

[WHKeith]

Hi, Aerylon! Welcome to comparitive-religions.com!

[AerylonBlackwolf]

Why thank you Mr. Keith. Thanks for the invite. :0)

[brian]

Hope I've welcomed you too, and glad to see you invited!

As to the issues raised - I personally wonder if the differing perceptions mentioned in the earlier post by AerylonBlackwolf are nothing more than linguistic illusions. I do not believe that every cultural on earth experiences a different reality - merely the same reality expressed through different tools of culture and society, or which language is but one. In which case, the acceptance that some part of the human being exists beyond life seems to be a general tenet. As to the technical peculiarities of that mysterious part of being - that some would call "soul" - there lies the disagreement.

[WHKeith]

Dang. Still can't figure out how to pick up a quote! ???

Regardng Brian's statement: "I do not believe that every cultural on earth experiences a different reality - merely the same reality expressed through different tools of culture and society, or which language is but one. In which case, the acceptance that some part of the human being exists beyond life seems to be a general tenet."

As a matter of fact, in MY view we DO each create our own reality, a posit shared by modern physics and the so-called "observer effect," and by modern witches. What we experience in the world around us is a kind of shared concensus of reality.

That's not to say that the !kung (Kalahari Bushmen) occupy a completly different reality from ours, but it goes a long way to explaining how, if they believe that magic works, then, for them, that magic is empirically and objectively real.

[WHKeith]

[quote author=brian link=board=3;threadid=26;start=msg1120#msg1120 date=1057399358]
I do not believe that every cultural on earth experiences a different reality - merely the same reality expressed through different tools of culture and society, or which language is but one.
[/quote]

Ah-HA! Now I get it! ;D

[Elizabeth May]

I think you make sense, Bill as isn't that how Voodoo works? But I see Brian's point that so much of what we see if culturally defined. I guess that's a reason why the Eastern craze swept through the 60's, as an alternative to the rejected status quo, searching for new ways to explore concepts of the world. But defining my own reality? I guess I'm not too sure how much of me is actually in there. How much is predefined by culture, experience, enviromental upbringing, and things like that?

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

very interesting topic... one that can probably not have a definitive answer.

*i still don't know how to do the quote thing*


AerylonBlackwolf you write:

If you were to ask a Buddhist what a sould [sic] is, he would tell you the soul is the man himself, his heart, his mind, his spirit, and in some cases his honor.

to which i respond:

this is not correct but that's ok a Buddhist does not hold their to be a soul of any type (spirit either for that matter). a soul tends to imply that there is an "I" that has a soul. a basic tenent of Buddhism is that there is no "I" and therefore, there can be no soul. there is quite a bit more that i can say regarding this, however, i think that it would muddy the water more than clearing it up.

there are three main schools of Buddhism... Hinyana (Theraveda), Mahayana and Vajrayana which each represent a Turning of the Wheel of Dharma. though some debate can be had about this, it's not really germane to the conversation.


AerylonBlackwolf you write:

If you ask a Taoist, he/she would say something to you about karma and the afterlife.

to which i respond:

this is also incorrect not picking on you mind you, just pointing out some flaws in your statements. Prior to the arrival of Buddhism in China there was no concept of "Karma", though there is some agreement between Ch'an and Taosim it should be kept in mind that Taosim as a religious practice was pre-existent to Buddhism in China.

there are two main flavors of Taoism, religious Taoism and philosophical Taoism. Religious Taoism is pretty much non-exsitent these days and only the philosophical traditions are left.

when religious Taoism was still being practiced, there was indeed a concept of a "spirit" that inhabited a body and so forth. the philosophical tradition used some of the same terminology but with a different meaning in mind. ah.. there is much more that i could post about this as well but i shall not for fear of using up all the free electrons on this site

[Iacchus]

[quote author=foundationist link=board=3;threadid=26;start=msg68#msg68 date=1048260938]
Hmm, the entire issue does seem a little complicated when both "soul" and "spirit" are invoked. Is it not that they are the same thing with difference names? Different aspects of one thing? Or indeed two separate entities in their own right? Hmm...

[/quote]

No, I think the difference between the soul and spirit is like the difference between your "physical body" and the "physical world" or, at least it can be looked at in that sense anyway.

[AerylonBlackwolf]

Foundationalist wrote: "Hmm, the entire issue does seem a little complicated when both "soul" and "spirit" are invoked."


I am not sure I like the word "invoke." Especially used in reference to the word soul or spirit. For the simple fact that it the word implies something that has no real bearing on the "soul/spirit."

The only major difference between the two are that humans have been endowed with a soul. Spirits are outside entities that exist. The word "spirit" is used to describe God, and/or angels, Satanic Entities. Soul is a direct word that has human connatation. The other word is in direct reference to the world beyond the physical one, i.e. The Spiritual World. Our souls do not exist in that world while our physical bodies breathe with life. When our bodies expire, then our soul either ascends or descends, depending. That is when the soul would reside with the spirit.

I hope that is easy to understand for you all, because I am not too sure if I understand it.

[brian]

Yes, my bad on the use of the word "invoke" - evoke should have been used, and within a much clearer sentence.

Just FYI - the other two admin accounts - foundationist and foundationist.org were used as aliases to test out some new board features, and provide an emergency access in the event that my usual alias became unavailable for whatever reason. I no longer use them. I explained about using them on another thread



As to the general issue of "soul" vs "spirit" - I often find the two terms used interchangeably. The "spirit" of life that animates the flesh, which is specifically referenced as the "soul"...

[WHKeith]

Namaste, Vajradhara!

You know, folks, this is one of the brilliantly splendid aspects of this board--the chance to rub electrons with followers of other spiritual traditions and beliefs. No matter what your own belief-set might be, it is my opinion that bumping up against others can ONLY widen your own world and experience.

Unless you just hunker down and refuse to admit any ideas different from your own. I used to be like that, but I'm feeling MUCH better now! :bounce:

Elizabeth, there are two sets of belief as to how voodoo actually works--and I assume here that you're referring to the voodoo doll bit, which, of course, is not what the religion of Voudoun is all about. One is that the victim knows that a Voudoun spell-worker has a doll with a bit of his hair or fingernail clippings worked into it, knows the doll is being harmed, and--because he believes in the power of sympathetic magic--he dies or gets sick. The other is that there is actually some magical influence at work, because there are MANY instances of the spell working where the victim did not believe at all . . . or even where he had no idea the spell was being worked.

The first instance has a psychological explanation, of course. The second is harder to explain by the standards of western science. However, I must say that the doll-and-pins idea, or something like it, is quite widespread throughout magical communities worldwide, is not exclusively part of Voudoun, and does seem to work in ways that traditional psychololgy cannot explain.

One way of explaining sympathetic magic apart from the target's belief or knowledge is to assume that people who believe in sympathetic magic do create a reality for themselves somewhat different from the reality the rest of us hold. Voodoo dolls work in Haiti (and in places elsewhere with a large Haitian population) because the shared, consensual reality of those places allows for sympathetic magic to work. And, of course, those beliefs are, in large part, culturally defined.

As a witch (who, please believe me, has absolutely no truck with Voodoo magic, black magic or spells designed to harm others!) I am much aware that the more witches we have focusing on a given goal or manifestation--and believing in that manifestation--the more likely and spectacular that manifestation is going to be.

As someone with a scientific background and a long-time fascination with modern physics, I know that the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics suggests that human observation--and by extension, human *belief*--is actually necessary to collapse the sea of particles/waves/probabilities we exist within into hard, knock-on-wood solid reality. By one view of the Copenhagen Interpretation, the entire world is a kind of on-going illusion sustained by human interaction in a shared belief system. Sounds a little like the Buddhist notion of "maya," or illusion.

Einstein questioned the idea by asking if that meant the Moon didn't exist if nobody looked at it. Quantum physics appears to say--backed by experimental evidence--that the moon exists in a "real" way (whatever THAT word means!), but that through our observation we create the context within which the moon--or an electron--exists, and thereby determine what kind of information we receive from reality around us. In part, this is dependent on our social, scientific, cultural, and religious beliefs, since those factors are what lead us to ask the questions--or make the observations--we do.

All of which, I suddenly realize, has very little to do with the topic of this thread. :cwm4: Sorry, everybody!

The short version, then: Yes, social and cultural factors have a tremendous impact on what we believe. In turn, what we believe has a tremendous effect on the physical world around us. Science is still divided on how large that effect actually is; does it literally create reality? Or is it confined to small-scale experiements with sub-atomic particles in the laboratory?

Speaking again as a witch--and as a former miracle-believing Christian--I have to say that my experience suggests that what we believe, who we are, how we interact with the world around us--and that, of course, includes the cultural context in which we find ourselves--all have FAR more to do with reality--from the hardness of this desktop in front of me to the existence of the moon in the sky to whether or not I have a soul--than we realize.

How's THAT for a brain-exploding paradox? My head hurts. Can I leave now?
:cwm28:

[AerylonBlackwolf]

First, I have to say that your opening line really through me. As I have no idea what it means:"Namaste, Vajradhara"...


But on to more important things.

Your whole line of thought here I find rather....interesting. I cannot see how a Christian can go from that belief to being Wiccan. Wiccans and Christians are like oil and water as far as their beliefs go. I have had my shar of confrontations with users of witchcraft, and I can say from experience that the whole line about white magic verses black magic is a ruse. Magic is magic. Whether it is cast to help or hurt. Magic is still magic.

Although I found very interesting how you find that Quantum Mechanics can explain the belief and/or uses of wiccanism. Personally, I think you are mistaken. I shall tell you why.

As you said anyone who researches an electron then because we really do not know what happens there, we "make it up according to our beliefs of what they should do.." To quote a Science Professor of mine at CALSTATE.

Quantum Mechanics can be used to explain anything and everything. I have even found a website where Quantum Physicists have used QM to show proof in the book of Revelations.

"Within each of us lies the capacity to do good and evil. Whether we are casting magic or praying to Christ. What we do with it determines how we end up in the afterlife."

Another quote ..but that one is famous. I believe the bible refers to witchcraft as Satanic. I do not recall the actual scripture though.

As a person who knows a bit about being a Wiccan, I can tell you from my own experience that the light far outdoes and outshines the darkness.

A true Christian cannot believe in something other than God, even if they have backslid. Why? Because once the truth lives in you, you cannot go back.

This is just my opinion, for whatever it is worth.