What Is The Source Of Evil?

mee · 06-17-2008, 09:02 AM

Is it possible that mankind is being manipulated by an unseen but powerful and sinister force? If so, what is it, and how can we protect ourselves?

Evil—Is It Out of Control?

Do you yearn for an end to evil?

If so, then you can take comfort in the promises contained in the Bible. No other book exposes the very author of evil, Satan, and no other book shows how he and all his wicked works will finally be eradicated.

17th Angel · 06-17-2008, 09:12 AM

"Belief and Spirituality General thinking beyond the boundaries of religion and organised belief."

Shouldn't this be in the christian forum? lol, as I feel this thread is only gonna go one way. Or are you actually interested in seeing how other faiths see the source of evil.... "no other book exposes the very author of evil." I doubt you are but yeah...

But we'll go with this.. I believe in a Creator, but I do not believe in a "satan" or "devil" Come to think of it, I don't believe in "evil" there is bad and pain and suffereing... But I don't believe in evil.

WE... Say that again... WE are to blame for any bad in this world.... So yeah to a degree a creation of the Creator is to blame...(not some demon spirit but humankind.) We have been given this gift and we should strive to do our best to make this world into the paradise we dream up... Sitting back and hoping for another to do something about it, isn't worth a thing... To sit and hope that daddy Creator is going to come and clean up our mess.... Isn't worth a thing... WE have to act. To simply point out the problems and troubles of this world... That isn't doing anything... We all know there is problems, but we need to look for solutions not for questions...

To sit back and believe that your god is going to come and clean this up and eradicate those who are not "good" isn't good in itself... I think it is rather selfish to have that chain of thought... We should try and make this world we have a paradise... It is in all of our powers and we can do it....

mee · 06-17-2008, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex P

"We should try and make this world we have a paradise... It is in all of our powers and we can do it....

interesting

is that not how it went after the rebellion and look at us now, did not the wicked one say to eve YOU CAN BECOME LIKE GOD

independance is never the right way it only leads to big problems .

17th Angel · 06-17-2008, 10:23 AM

I feel sorry for you mee.. (I am not attempting to be little or offend or anything.) But to me it seems like you feel we are unable to do good and help. I am not speaking of being a god. I am speaking of being a human. A good, helpful, positive human.

If your god promises paradise, I am sorry but I am to impatient to wait for someone to come and clean up the mess... I am going to roll up my sleeves and get out the cleaner and start mopping up myself.

China Cat Sunflower · 06-17-2008, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Evil is never intended as evil. Indeed, the contradiction inherent in all evil is that it originates in the desire to eliminate evil. "The only good Indian is a dead Indian."

Evil arises in the honored belief that history can be tidied up, brought to a sensible conclusion. It is evil to act as though the past is bringing us to a specifiable end. It is evil to assume that the past will make sense only if we bring it to an issue we have clearly in view. It is evil for a nation to believe it is the "last, best hope on earth." It is evil to think history is to end with a return to Zion, or with classless society, or with the Islamicization of all living infidels.

...do not attempt to eliminate evil in others, for to do so is the very impulse of evil itself, and therefore a contradiction.

James P. Carse,

Chris

wil · 06-17-2008, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Chris

I've never read that quote, but I like it and agree. Hitler for instance was thinking he was right, was trying to fix a perceived evil in the world. Both sides of the line in Palestine think they are right. The 9/11 bombers thought they were right and we were evil and Bush thinks he is right and Iraq was evil...

The problem it appears identified is thinking you are right, thinking you know the truth and thinking others are in error, perception.

I am of the belief that evil does not exist and everything is in divine order. I don't have the capacity to look at the big picture, but do know any perceived evil on this planet has very little to do with the orbit of others.

While my thinking wasn't has defined as Mr. Carse's, I believe I can agree.

Ciel · 06-17-2008, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

I've never read that quote, but I like it and agree. Hitler for instance was thinking he was right, was trying to fix a perceived evil in the world. Both sides of the line in Palestine think they are right. The 9/11 bombers thought they were right and we were evil and Bush thinks he is right and Iraq was evil...

The problem it appears identified is thinking you are right, thinking you know the truth and thinking others are in error, perception.

I am of the belief that evil does not exist and everything is in divine order. I don't have the capacity to look at the big picture, but do know any perceived evil on this planet has very little to do with the orbit of others.

While my thinking wasn't has defined as Mr. Carse's, I believe I can agree.

Wil,

How do you see someone as Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe who is allowing and instigating atrocities against his own people who are now starving through his own selfish pride.
And looking more towards solutions instead of concentrating on the negative value of blame how might it be possible for the world to help.
Is it enough to sit back and pray.......
It's just not possible to send a guy love and compassion who wears a bullet proof vest to keep it out.

- c -

mee · 06-17-2008, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex P

I feel sorry for you mee.. (I am not attempting to be little or offend or anything.) But to me it seems like you feel we are unable to do good and help. I am not speaking of being a god. I am speaking of being a human. A good, helpful, positive human.

If your god promises paradise, I am sorry but I am to impatient to wait for someone to come and clean up the mess... I am going to roll up my sleeves and get out the cleaner and start mopping up myself.

i look at it this way, it is no good polishing the brass on a sinking ship

best to look to the only way of salvation Daniel 2;44

path_of_one · 06-17-2008, 05:12 PM

I'm with Alex. Doing whatever a person can to make a positive impact in the world is not the same as trying to be a god. That isn't even a rational argument, nor is it aligned with Christ's teachings, who taught to do good things and "be perfect even as our Father is perfect."

I believe that waiting for God to clean up our mess is selfish and lazy.

I believe that it is also directly anti-Christ. That is, it is a total opposition to what Jesus said we should do, and what was in our power to do. I can't believe how many Christians ignore the teachings of Jesus and insist they can't do anything. It's amazing to me, quite frankly, because the Gospels make it clear as day.

Finally, I don't believe in Satan in the sense of an anti-God. I believe closer to what the Jews believe about Satan. It's worth study for any Christian who is stuck in the Roman-given concept of a demonized Pan who goes around supposedly "manipulating" us as if we were puppets. We were created with free will, and as such, it is we who perpetuate evil. We could choose to stop it. But then, to acknowledge this doesn't allow laziness. It means you have to work hard for justice and mercy. It means you have no excuse for your bad attitude, faulty perceptions, and selfish actions. You can't blame the sorry state of the world on "Satan" and "demons" and pretend that you're just a pawn in some grand spiritual game. Nope. You have to take responsibility, which means an honest look at oneself and a lot of work to improve. It seems a lot of Americans don't like this, so along with our tendency to buy a lot of technological junk to try to get rid of hard work, we buy into ideas about Satan and the rapture and all kinds of "easy ways out"-- so that we can ignore what we were told by Christ to do and instead just think he'll come back and fix it all without any expenditure of our own effort. And then, we twist and warp Christ's own teachings so that it becomes "prideful" to think we can make any difference and taking responsibility is seen as a sin.

Now that's anti-Christ if I ever saw it.

That said, I'm also with Chris. When we fight against something, we feed it. We acknowledge its power. We help it to grow stronger. This is why "wars" on things don't work (whether literal or figurative- the war on drugs, etc.). Why not work for a positive goal rather than against something? Work for peace? For sobriety? For love? Then we give energy to what we wish to feed.

path_of_one · 06-17-2008, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mee

i look at it this way, it is no good polishing the brass on a sinking ship

best to look to the only way of salvation Daniel 2;44

I look at it this way: if Christ returns, do you think he wants to see people doing nothing but talking about him? Or do you think he'll be more pleased with the Mother Theresas of the world, who are doing his work?

"That which you do unto the least of these, you do unto me."

The ship may sink, but it is pure laziness and selfishness not to try to care for it until the very last. I don't think of the earth and humanity as mine. It is God's, and I am but one of its keepers. As the parables taught, those who tend it carefully are the ones who are doing God's will. It matters not whether it is saved through God's efforts through me, or God's efforts through another, or God's efforts directly... what matters is that I care for other beings as God does, because that is what it is to love. And God is love.

So basically, I'm calling it as I see it. I think all this is an excuse to get out of doing the hard work of caring steadfastly for humanity and for the earth. By pretending we can't do it, we are able to feel better about eschewing our responsibility for the problems humanity has created. It enables lazy people to offload the work onto people who see the need and work steadfastly to care for God's creation. Basically, it uses religion to justify freeloaders and moochers.

Bishadi · 06-17-2008, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mee

Is it possible that mankind is being manipulated by an unseen but powerful and sinister force? If so, what is it, and how can we protect ourselves?

Yes.... misdirecting the minds of people are the greatest evil doings any human can do.

Quote:

Evil—Is It Out of Control?

Look at what 'faiths' have done to the middle east, the world, the minds of people; they believe magic governs life

Quote:

Do you yearn for an end to evil?

the yearning is universal to mankind; the pursuit of the truth! And with comprehension; then evil is reduced based on the ability of the imposing individual to understanding the damage caused.

The truth of 'life' will create an inert responsibility to each choice.

Then raise a child from day one with the truth and the 'rebellion' will cease.

Quote:

If so, then you can take comfort in the promises contained in the Bible. No other book exposes the very author of evil, Satan, and no other book shows how he and all his wicked works will finally be eradicated.

Basically suggests that the faith 'created' satan; makes sense.

There is no 'non-local' causation of evil other than 'words'. and to remove the ignorance of complacent beliefs created by words; then satan would not exist.

17th Angel · 06-17-2008, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I'm with Alex. Doing whatever a person can to make a positive impact in the world is not the same as trying to be a god. That isn't even a rational argument, nor is it aligned with Christ's teachings, who taught to do good things and "be perfect even as our Father is perfect."

I believe that waiting for God to clean up our mess is selfish and lazy.

I believe that it is also directly anti-Christ. That is, it is a total opposition to what Jesus said we should do, and what was in our power to do. I can't believe how many Christians ignore the teachings of Jesus and insist they can't do anything. It's amazing to me, quite frankly, because the Gospels make it clear as day.

Finally, I don't believe in Satan in the sense of an anti-God. I believe closer to what the Jews believe about Satan. It's worth study for any Christian who is stuck in the Roman-given concept of a demonized Pan who goes around supposedly "manipulating" us as if we were puppets. We were created with free will, and as such, it is we who perpetuate evil. We could choose to stop it. But then, to acknowledge this doesn't allow laziness. It means you have to work hard for justice and mercy. It means you have no excuse for your bad attitude, faulty perceptions, and selfish actions. You can't blame the sorry state of the world on "Satan" and "demons" and pretend that you're just a pawn in some grand spiritual game. Nope. You have to take responsibility, which means an honest look at oneself and a lot of work to improve. It seems a lot of Americans don't like this, so along with our tendency to buy a lot of technological junk to try to get rid of hard work, we buy into ideas about Satan and the rapture and all kinds of "easy ways out"-- so that we can ignore what we were told by Christ to do and instead just think he'll come back and fix it all without any expenditure of our own effort. And then, we twist and warp Christ's own teachings so that it becomes "prideful" to think we can make any difference and taking responsibility is seen as a sin.

Now that's anti-Christ if I ever saw it.

Satan made me do it :\

China Cat Sunflower · 06-18-2008, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

I've never read that quote, but I like it and agree. Hitler for instance was thinking he was right, was trying to fix a perceived evil in the world. Both sides of the line in Palestine think they are right. The 9/11 bombers thought they were right and we were evil and Bush thinks he is right and Iraq was evil...

The problem it appears identified is thinking you are right, thinking you know the truth and thinking others are in error, perception.

I am of the belief that evil does not exist and everything is in divine order. I don't have the capacity to look at the big picture, but do know any perceived evil on this planet has very little to do with the orbit of others.

While my thinking wasn't has defined as Mr. Carse's, I believe I can agree.

Wil, I lifted that quote from a book I'm reading by James Carse titled Finite and Infinite Games, A Vision of Life as Play and Possibility. He begins by making the following statement:

Quote:

1. There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite.

A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of
continuing the play.

2. There is no game, finite or infinite, unless the players freely agree to play it. No one can play who is forced to play. This is an invariable principle of all play. Whoever must play, cannot play.

...and works out from there.

There is a synopsis of the book at http://www.glg.net/pdf/Finite_Infinite_Games.pdf. Just skip the intro and go directly to the author's notes.

Chris

mee · 06-18-2008, 08:07 AM

[quote=path_of_one;150740]I look at it this way: if Christ returns, do you think he wants to see people doing nothing but talking about him?

quote]
he wants to see his followers doing what he asked matthew 28;19-20 i am glad to say that JEHOVAHS WITNESSES are doing just that , but many who claim to represent christianity are not being faithful to the teachings of Jesus they have taken on manmade doctrines . religious leaders have gone their own way and are not faithful at all. they are saying good is bad and bad is good .

no wonder that their flocks are like sheep without a shepherd, they do not even know what the bible REALLY teaches.

mee · 06-18-2008, 08:27 AM

[quote=Bishadi;150742]Yes.... misdirecting the minds of people are the greatest evil doings any human can do.
quote]

very true, and it is the way of the one in opposition to God that is influencing those ones . the aim of satan is to direct people away from

GODS ESTABLISHED HEAVENLY KINGDOM DANIEL 2;44 that has always been satans aim.

when Gods heavenly kingdom was due to be born in the heavens ,satan was there ready to destroy it , but it was given Gods protection , so now he(satan) is out to be in opposition to anyone who upholds that KINGDOM , it is all spoken about in the book of revelation .

And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, that, when she did give birth, it might devour her child. revelation 12;4

the book of revelation as we all know is highly symbolic and the woman is giving birth to GODS KINGDOM.

satan is out to influence people to be in opposition to Gods purpose for the earth. especially trying to influence those who are doing the work of bearing witness to that kingdom

And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus. revelation 12;17

and the world in general which is under the power of the wicked one (satan the devil) ...1 JOHN 5;19 ... is distracted in many many ways , and it is all in opposition to the will of God..

YES MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT THE MISDIRECTING IS GREAT INDEED AND IT IS VERY EVIL INDEED