What is The Truth?

[radarmark]

Originally Posted by Lunitik

I was not there to hallucinate.

I said that once on 23 Feb 1968. HINT: Anthem of the Sun was recorded that night!

[NiceCupOfTea]

Originally Posted by Lunitik

Why do they need relationships?

They can relate, but relationships mean a kind of dependence and obligation, they do not provide freedom.

I don't even understand why this is related to religion in your mind, it is just natural mammal behavior to live in packs, and this type of living gives us the urge to relate and share with one another... this is not related to religion at all.

i'm talking about a Love Relationship with God, that is the promise of the Christianity that I have encountered.

Perhaps it is because you don't know how to make friends outside the Church?

humour, not used that from you, you ok ?

[Lunitik]

Originally Posted by NiceCupOfTea

i'm talking about a Love Relationship with God, that is the promise of the Christianity that I have encountered.

This statement shows a lack of understanding on your part... 1 John 4:8 says God IS love. You are saying you are after a Love Relationship with Love. It makes no sense, why will you love love? No, love is the fragrance of the divine, seek that divinity within yourself and you will see the Kingdom of God - as Jesus has termed it.

[NiceCupOfTea]

Originally Posted by Lunitik

This statement shows a lack of understanding on your part...

if you say so.

1 John 4:8 says God IS love. You are saying you are after a Love Relationship with Love. It makes no sense, why will you love love? No, love is the fragrance of the divine, seek that divinity within yourself and you will see the Kingdom of God - as Jesus has termed it.

In the Christianity that I have encountered we come to know God as a Person, and there is the potential for a Love Relationship with this Person.

I'm sharing my experience of Christianity, whether you think its right or wrong is your call.

[AndrewX]

As someone with a Theosophical background, I like this kind of discussion. The approach I take, is that every human being is innately in possession of a PRINCIPLE or Faculty of Consciousness which allows him or her to KNOW the Truth, directly and unequivocally.

We call this faculty Buddhi, as it is precisely the same which operated in Lord Gautama Buddha, Christed Jesus (and every other Christed, or spiritually Awakened individual throughout history), etc.

When operational, and when unobstructed in terms of reaching the physical BRAIN, via the mind or mental body (also via a clear, reflecting and calm astral body, or emotional principle) ... it is accurate to say that ANY human being can, and does, KNOW TRUTH.

How can we be certain?

We can't ... UNLESS the above set(s) of conditions are met. When this occurs, it still becomes necessary to ask: TO what extent has the person been able to accurately transmit anything of his or her Buddhic-Conscious experience, and how much (or to what degree) has the genuine INSIGHT (or Intuition) been lost, filtered or degraded by the various layers of personality equipment?

This is why Gnosticism becomes just another curious belief system, when garbled up and clouded by codifications and multiple layers of interpretation ... vs. any kind of true GNOSIS, which can and often does occur entirely independent of orgranized religion or belief systems. The Native American or indigenous shamans of ANY region are often in a far better position to rightly interpret the signs of the Heavens, perhaps from what we would call an astronomical and also astrological point of view ... vs. the spiritually degraded and materialism-burdened trappings of religion which all but the most adroit and adept among the modern-day priesthood (of any Tradition, Eastern or Western) must try and sidestep before any kind of true Revelation may come through, or Insight be afforded.

The following of the Star, SiRiUs, for example ... means WHAT among modern Christians, this time of year? Either it shows us something of the Pageantry of the Heavens, and how this reflects, even down here on tiny Earth (where ALL bear within their hearts "Christ within, the HOPE of Glory" - Known 1000 different ways, to 1000 different people - even just within relatively MODERN history!) ... or else the still small Voice of Truth and Reason is smothered, such that only the precious few "will receive Him still."

All are capable, but not all perceive, respond or readily relate to THE TRUTH. And as long as we are keeping in mind GOODNESS and BEAUTY ... I think we're still, pretty well off.

Yes, the Truth may remind us of perspective, the need for Humility, and we may become well aware, Socratic-like, that WHAT we know, even if it could be sum-totalled, would compare as nought next to the Awareness of the Ancients. But does that mean we should not strive to embody GOODNESS in our actions and relationships, or give up on the challenge of helping to reveal BEAUTY - where sometimes the ugliness of human ignorance, greed and exploitation have become increasingly prevalent?

Truth is not, or should not be used, as simply a bludgeoning tool, with which to BASH each other into alignment, or even as a sharpened sword, wielded a bit UNskillfully (by the zealous and eager, yet utterly undiciplined and untrained) ... for otherwise, we shall lop off an ear where (wo)men are but seeking, straining even to HEAR. We shall divorce entire HANDS, and arms from those engaged in OUTREACH, all in service - one way or another - to the same Holy POWERS. And, for all our Good Intentions, we shall cut out another's tongue, even as s/he DECLARES GOD by some other name, or in some other language than we are used to hearing ... and then, once we have SAVED the whole world from its (which are often simply OUR) follies, HOW then, shall we be able to hear others cry HOLY?

Let Manjushri wield that Sword; let CHRIST make these divisions. If you KNOW something, then by definition, you will not need to question, or ask, "Do I really?" ... or wonder, CAN Truth be Known? By definition, to KNOW a thing, is to be REMOVED from all doubt regarding that subject, or this pariticular matter (technically, the doubt subsides from our awareness, and in that moment, no obstruction clouds our reflection, in outer, brain awareness - of Inner FACT). But this is a different kind of `fact' than we are used to, and the concrete mind will set at work, often in the very next moment following upon our realization. Before a few minutes have passed, we will once again be thrown in with doubt, suspicion and mistrust - where others are involved - and even an Apostle will find himself confused by what has transpired.

Or are we convinced ... that we are better than this - and that surely, not us, not I, will be IN DOUBT, once I have glimpsed something of TRUTH?

Truth, as some will long ago have realized, is very much like a Chalice at times, and the Whole Purpose for that CHALICE ... will become revealed as having been the preparation to RECEIVE a `measure of' that Truth, which both IS the Chalice, and is also that which the Chalice holds. Not simply so that WE may receive, but so that we may learn to turn, and Serve others ... THIS too, is an important aspect, or realization of THE Truth.

See if this does not match up with what Christ Himself declared, what Christ Himself brought, showed us and taught us regarding Himself, His Mission and our greatest (potential) Service among our fellow Humanity!

[AndrewX]

Then again, some of us (see if this may not apply) - author of these words included - may be able to discuss the subject plain enough. But would we, do we, prefer THIS ... to LIVING the Truth? What a shame if we have allowed ourselves to be so reduced, so disempowered and so disavowed from our Soul's Holy Duty, the DHARMA!

It is never too late. Truth is, the World still awaits:

YOUR Buddhahood, and MINE

(As a friend of mine used to say, perhaps quoting something Inspirational,
"That is very Good(!) ... but it would be better to be Practicing the Dharma!")

Namaskara

[Nick the Pilot]

"every human being is innately in possession of a PRINCIPLE or Faculty of Consciousness which allows him or her to KNOW the Truth, directly and unequivocally."

--> What is really sad is when people belong to a fundamentalist religion, and that religion forbids them to explore doubts in their own personal belief system (doubts that cause them to ask the very questions they want to ask -- and feel free to ask -- questions their fundamental religion forbids). Sadly, I believe most religions in the world are fundamentalist in this way.

Are Christians allowed to question if Jesus was a deity?
Are Muslims allowed to question if Mohammed was the last profit who will ever appear?
Are Buddhists allowed to question the idea that we have no soul and that there is no God?

If the answer is yes (and these questions are frowned upon or can actually get the person in trouble or even get the person thrown out of the religion, or worse, get killed), then these religions are fundamentalist religions.

I used to be a member of a Buddhist temple. I told someone that I was Buddhist but that I also believe we have a 'soul.' The person responded, "Then you are not a Buddhist." This is fundamentalism, pure and simple.

[Princely]

Scripture, the word of the Lord, says that Gods word is truth.

Jesus says in the book of John (Father) "your word is truth".

The OT says "I the Lord speak the truth, I say what is right."

"Let the man who has my words , speak my words and speak the truth."

"All of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever".

"Teach me your way, O Lord, that I may walk in your truth; give me an undivided heart to revere your name.


John described Jesus as the word made flesh. And Jesus as the son of man says he is the truth. So again putting those two scriptures together one can see that the word of God is the truth.

[AndrewX]

Nick, I value our ability, inalienable Right and prerogative, often validated if and when exercised ... as you describe. I guess the one caveat is that whenever lambs suckle, the requirement is a proper milk ... vs. the meat of diet to another sort altogether. Thus in esotericism `the little Ones' are the same, to the Great Ones. So a measure of truth, watered down for the easier absorbtion, is better than none at all. And a crown of thorns {something esoteric, indeed}

The Sacred Heart, as (to) Birth, New Life {the Mystery then, generation in the tenth month, if conception was in the First, Aries, the Lamb or Ram} ... and Christ, the New Life, in the flesh, a Mystery not so veiled at all, as poets will say.

Clothed in Human form, however, is much for anyone to grasp (too, for me) ... so it remains a Mystery. Or would I rather KNOW a little bit about how things work? Dear, dear.

A word for Modesty, Humility ...

[Nick the Pilot]

Andrew,

I think you are saying that we all must find a teacher who will guide us, a teacher who will try to convince us to believe ideas we presently refuse to believe. At such times, we must be ready to discard our belief systems and trust our teacher to change our belief systems from ours to his. (Is that what you are saying?)

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Andrew,

I think you are saying that we all must find a teacher who will guide us, a teacher who will try to convince us to believe ideas we presently refuse to believe. At such times, we must be ready to discard our belief systems and trust our teacher to change our belief systems from ours to his. (Is that what you are saying?)

Nick,

I think yes, but only inasmuch as we are able to tentatively accept that the Teacher and ourselves already share in the One Truth. Such is a Mystery far greater than any of us individually (may grasp), as even all of the Theosophical writings of the Ages (including Vedas, Gospels, etc.) cannot encapsulate.

On the plane of the Soul the Master knows us both as we already are - essentially a SOUL (and ALL Souls are Immortal, as Socrates points out) - the Master and the Soul being ONE. We are, each and all, at some stage of growth along the long, slow but guaranteed process - or Journey - of realizing outwardly our Soul's unique and Innermost potential. As St. Paul put it, this is: "Christ in us, the Hope of Glory."

A Master of the Wisdom would never ask us to jump off of a cliff needlessly, so the proverbial Lemming-type of questions are really a waste of time. That said, no Master will instruct us, certainly to the point of a specific command or injunction, until and unless we ourselves are at the proper stage of Soul unfoldment and personality self-discipline. This prevents karmic problems, including the denial of growth to the student in question. So, I'm fairly certain none of the Great Ones is simply seeking a puppet, or yet another parrot, within the world of men.

I think it would be easy to speak, almost ad infinitum, about some of the conditions of living pertaining to Mahatmas, advanced chelas and so forth. The Masters have allowed this information to become known, yet it only finds proper value and perspective when we fit it into the right context. Some of the Teachings given, such as those concerning the true age (physically speaking) of such & such a Master (living in Tibet, or Europe, or Lebanon) ... will thus amount to little, if we cannot see what relevance this has upon ourselves, our world and the future of Humanity.

Likewise, to know the previous incarnations of the Galilean Adept, as well as those which have followed ... is useless, misleading or confusing information - even for esotericists (perhaps especially so) - if we don't have a good grasp on why this information has been given out. I truly doubt that it was just to add to the Mystery, or ... to keep us guessing!

Anyway, I'm fairly certain that every Master there is, first & foremost our own SOUL, would far prefer that we continue to ASK questions, than that we prematurely or glamorously adopt some kind of new spin on Ancient Truth, simply because it escapes the trickery and nonsense which modern theology has had to heap upon its own inaneness and absurdity. Sure, there are wonderful and satisfying answers - to the Gospel story, and to many other modern religious mysteries or conundra - but just because they may be easier to swallow doesn't mean we have really progressed much ... if all they do is rest more easily with our gut feelings, or hunch, about "what really probably happened," etc.

I'm not saying this is a bad start. Just that we have to be careful not to mistake the Beginnings of the spiritual Path for any kind of END. The best example in modern times that I know of, is pretty much 99.9% (flip it, for clarity) of Christians (Catholic, Fundamentalist, or anywhere else on the spectrum) who say something about Jesus of Nazareth being the Way, Truth, Life, answer, etc. Especially where it all just kind of boils down to JESUS, this one word, or name, a placeholder for that enigmatic historical personage ... we can often observe a kind of automatic short-circuiting of people's ability to THINK, let alone rationally or clearly, about the subject.

Notice, however, that the same kind of thing can and does occur, almost any time folks get going about the glamorous topic of out-of-body projection, travel or near-death experiences. While the body of literature is a little less canonical, it nevertheless draws all sorts of finality to people's minds, as if we've already mastered the topic and its implications ... even while MOST of us have probably NEVER actually experienced astral consciousness in the same way, to the same degree or capacity, that we experience PHYSICAL awareness every day!

What is it about the UNKNOWN, including what the Roman Catholics call the Mysteries, which implies that we CANNOT, SHOULD NOT and BETTER NOT dare ASK!!! This, on top of what Jesus almost begged his own Followers to do! I suspect he encouraged them literally by the multitudes to KEEP asking questions, even while respecting Tradition and keeping Humble before TRUE spiritual Authority - which concept is all but lost on the majority of `believers' today. Never did Christ try and SHUT DOWN this kind of Right Inquiry, by frightening the Little Ones, or spooking them in general about the Mysteries.

Christ OPENLY TAUGHT as much as the people of that time & region could handle ... regarding both the Lesser and Greater Mysteries. The former have long been accessible to those who earnestly sought, and we should well know (as esotericists) that the latter are also open to us, if we but inquire ~ and properly prepare ourselves to receive Them. There are definite, sometimes strict observances (of conduct and character - such as the Noble Eightfold PATH) which dictate when and how we may receive these various Mysteries. But nowhere are we taught or told that it is fundamentally taboo to SEEK out greater Wisdom, Knowledge, Understanding and Guidance. At worst, we are admonished if we do so for personal gain, i.e. strictly for the advancement of the separated self.

So, I think we ARE asked to increasingly try and see things the way the Masters see them, but this doesn't mean our grasp on it all will change radically overnight ... or even for several lifetimes. That said, I figure it's just a convenient partial truth (of people's OWN choosing) that many folks still aren't aware of dozens of visiting civilizations, present within our Earth's atmosphere every single day ... as well as HOSTS of Devas (co-Dwellers on Earth) outnumbering Human Jivas by more than 2 to 1. 140 billion Angel-Souls vs. 60 billion Human ones is something that makes me stop and think, every now & then. I sure hope we don't piss them off to the extent that `Nature' has to wreak the kind of havoc upon the planet (including human settlements) that results in widescale Destruction. This, of course, is still largely up to US!

Master Morya makes a reference to the ARK of the New Civilzation already being prepared (here, the FUTURE Manu is speaking, I dare say). He says, tongue in cheek, that He hopes it will be a larger Ark than that of Noah!

Feliz Navidad!!!

[JakeH]

Andrew,
Your post was well done albeit a little complicated. Your point about continuing to ask questions is very, very important. You must continue to seek until you find....The Truth. This Truth is the oft mentioned "secrets" in the Bible....
“The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding…’” (Mark 4:11-12).
“The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.” (Matt. 13:11-12)
“We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature . . . No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.” (1 Cor. 2:6-8)

Before one begins their journey to The Truth, an important biblical lesson must be learned. It is often mentioned that you should “become like a child” to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This means that you should have an open or “free” mind like that of a child prior to being taught the ways of this physical world. This also applies to the manmade doctrines or dogmas of any church.

You should know your history!
Do objective research on the first four (six actually) centuries of the Christian Church.
Read the writings of Clement of Alexandria and especially Origen as well as and other early (Pre-Nicene) church fathers at Early Christian Writings and Christian Classics Ethereal Library.
Have you researched the discoveries of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Library.
Why did Constantine commit genocide against the Essenes, Ebionites, Nazirenes and Messianic Jews (who were all Gnostic Christians) when they wouldn't accept the newly established Nicene Creed?
After several hundred years of peaceful existence, Why did the Church of Rome (with the King of France) conduct the Albigensian Crusade? This was the only crusade ever conducted against Christians, the result of which was the slaughter, burning, and eradication of the Gnostic Cathars and their Church by the fourteenth century.
Hmmmm....maybe those nasty "herectical" Gnostics knew something...I wonder.
In a nutshell, The Truth comes from God, or more accurately, The True Teacher with a capital T. To ultimately learn The Truth from God, one must first find the oft mentioned "Key of Knowledge" which opens that gate within. An essential part of that "Key" is to "Know Thyself". Andrew, you say that the Soul is immortal and you are absolutely correct. It is also pre-existent and it transmigrates many lifetimes. When you come to grips with that, it's like flipping a switch. Your perception changes 180 degrees. You finally realize that your true self is the soul, not this physical body. Start your sincere (God's BS meter is 100%) prayers (for The Truth and some sincere repentance doesn't hurt), be patient and if He likes what sees, your mind will unlock and it will start. You'll need to buckle your seat belt because it can be a bumpy ride. And you'll finally understand what the Book of Revelations is all about.

Laus Deo,
Jake

[JakeH]

Hi Nick,

In your previous post you said..."I used to be a member of a Buddhist temple. I told someone that I was Buddhist but that I also believe we have a 'soul.' The person responded, "Then you are not a Buddhist." This is fundamentalism, pure and simple."

The Buddhist focus is on the mind, not the Soul. The Truth of the matter is that the mind and Soul are the same...it's just a perception thing.

[Nick the Pilot]

Jake,

I'll take you one step further. Buddhism says neither the mind nor the soul exist. If so, why should we focus on one or the other?

[Lunitik]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Jake,

I'll take you one step further. Buddhism says neither the mind nor the soul exist. If so, why should we focus on one or the other?

False, Buddhism differentiates between the mind and Mind - these can be equated to soul and spirit. It upholds the cosmic or universal mind, but denies the ego or mind which forms the "I". Thus, it upholds Spirit but denies Soul, it denies separation and upholds interconnectedness. It absolutely upholds the oneness of all things, and this is Dharmakaya - it can be equated with the Holy Spirit or Brahman.