What is Theosophy?

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Thank you for answering my question, Andrew. I can't really say that I understand it all, but I get the impression that you beleive in something like an ancient, or perhaps eternal, primordial Soul, which is a source of enlightenment and spiritual advancement for us on earth and for any and all other living beings in our universe.

peace,
lunamoth

Yes, the Theosophist regards this "primordial Soul" as incarnate and representative to us via the being Christians call Jehovah, or YHWH. In simplest terms, this is what is indicated by Planetary Logos, or in Sanskrit, Sanat Kumara (`Eternal Youth'). The use of Planetary Logos is distinguished from SOLAR LOGOS, because the former is understood to be a student, or Disciple, or the LOGOS of our (Solar) System ... which is the higher correspondence to, and model upon which Earth's spiritual Teachers draw.

Technically, the LOGOS even of our planet is said to exist in far, far Higher Worlds than Human evolution will ever reach - and that is why there is both a Way of Higher Evolution (entered by the Christ and Buddha after their Service to our Planet is finished) ... and also why there is the Being called YHWH, or Sanat Kumara. This being is like the personality, or Incarnation, of God the Father, though it is a perfect personality, as distinct from our imperfect lesser ego/persona ... and obviously on a far, far greater scale.

CHRIST then serves as the Head of Hierarchy, which consists of the 63 Members who have been called the Masters, or Great Ones (the term They prefer and have used most often is Elder Brothers). And CHRIST (with Hierarchy as His Ashram), is the mediating principle of LOVE for our planet, and is understood as the LOGOS incarnate, representing for us both the Planetary Logos, or GOD, and that Greater Being, the Solar LOGOS (or - SuperGod???).

HUMANITY, as the creative aspect of the Planet Itself (the Throat Chakra of Gaia, so to speak) .... is considered as a whole to be a vital center in the body of the Planetary Logos - and therefore it is a profound, even critical statement, to say that God needs us. On a personal level, I can say this makes me feel much better about myself, than to hear people going around saying, "we are nothing in the eyes of God," and "God certainly does not need us, only vice versa." That we need God, should NOT be in dispute, unless somewhere a person has confused the meaning and significance of latent Divinity, the Spark within, of which St. Paul spoke thus: Christ in you, the Hope of Glory. He did not say, sit around and watch the Spark burst forth into Flame. The TV will not make it happen. Not even the Discovery Channel, but that one might not hurt, either.

I can only imagine what Humanity, as an integrated, harmonius, spiritually-galvanized, fully functioning Throat Center might be like in the Logoic Body. With Christ as the Heart (Love), and God the Father as the Head Center (Will), the Spiritual Creativity that would result might enable our little planet to actually be of benefit and service to the rest of the Spiritual Evolutions in our System - not to mention neighboring Systems. Currently, I suspect that we are largely a drain, being a very sick and troubled planet indeed. No small wonder aid is sent from so many directions (spiritually "vertical," down to us ... and spiritually "horizontal" - hmmmm).

The other Planetary Logoi, btw, are the rest of the Seven Elohim, or Spirits before the Throne - the THRONE being that of the Solar LOGOS. Esoterically, God's Heart Center is the SUN Itself, and the 7 Sacred Planets are the energy centers, or chakras, in his BODY - which is the Solar System itself. As yet, they are obviously not all functioning, harmonious, and so forth. But each planet is viewed as the incarnation of a Mighty Being, our Earth Logos (YHWH) being a younger Brother, as it were ... something like James the Lesser in relation to James the Great, or Simon the Zealot in relation to Simon Peter. Mars, and Earth, are then not among the 7 Sacred Planets ... yet since all is evolving, and non-Sacred planets become Sacred Ones, we are told that this very transition (from Pisces to Aquarius, and from the Kali Yug to Satya Yuga, or Iron Age to Golden) ... is changing things. And rapidly, faster than a speeding electron!

I find this to be a profound Teaching, and it requires at least an elementary knowledge of esoteric astrology, and the Science of the Rays, which are considerably deep studies, and well beyond my ken. Yet even for a fraction of it to come together, is like Amrita! Heavenly Bliss!!! It is Light amidst the darkness, Wisdom where there would be ignorance, and the promise of Eternal Life amidst a world still much obsessed with materialism and death!

I am convinced, from my experience(s), that we receive the streams of Love, Light, and spiritual Empowerment from many sources - though each represents, or is an expression of - the One Divine. And thus entire movements and ideologies, from the very dawn of Human civilization and culture, have been inspired by Divine Emissaries, always living among us. Today, they return to public view, though it is not always easy to make an appointment. The Occult adage is, When the student is the ready, the Master will appear. And in my experience, this is true. Perhaps when the world is ready, the Master of Masters will appear ... and to this end, esoteric students participate in Group Meditation, Group Study, and in Group Service. They also use the Science of Invocation, as part of their group and individual meditations, and this is quite similar to both mantra and prayer - perhaps something like the two blended. Outward ceremony is less prevalent, though sometimes observed ... though music (and fragrance) is considered to be a powerful influence - allowing cooperation of various classes of Devas (the spiritual classes of Angels), and also calming the personality.

In practice, this is what an esotericist may look like, though I like to think things like, "I wonder if this postal worker might be an esoteric student." And sometimes, as I've discovered, it can be surprising who turns out to be! Certainly, they are known by their fruit. To quote from The Voice of the Silence (or The Book of Dzyan - the ancient book which Blavatsky's Masters translated for her, and some of whose stanzas she learnt by heart):

Sow kindly acts and thou shalt reap their fruition. Inaction in a deed of mercy becomes an action in a deadly sin. . . .
Shalt thou abstain from action? Not so shall gain thy soul her freedom. To reach Nirvâna one must reach Self-Knowledge, and Self-Knowledge is of loving deeds the child. (p. 31)

Something which many Theosophists repeat daily, as I did for a long time, is the Golden Stairs, a mantram of sorts (also from Blavatsky):

THE GOLDEN STAIRS

A clean life, an open mind,
A pure heart, an eager intellect,
An unveiled spiritual perception,
A brotherliness for all;

A readiness to give and receive advice and instruction,
A loyal sense of duty to the Teacher*,
A willing obedience to the behests of TRUTH,
Once we have placed our confidence in,
And believe that Teacher to be in possession of it;

A courageous endurance of personal injustice,
A brave declaration of principles,
A valiant defence of those who are unjustly attacked,
And a constant eye to the ideal of human progression
And perfection which the secret science depicts;

These are the golden stairs
Up the steps of which the learner may climb
To the Temple of Divine Wisdom.

Namaskar,

andrew

[Thomas]

The "spirit" of Theosophy, fits me from what I see:
Me too.

What I don't appreciate in some of the Theosophical belief system is what seems to be taking what looks more mythical and symbolic and taking it for concrete historical fact including apparent shoe-horning facts into a shape that better fits their views.

I think the problem lies at the metaphysical level.

Without some form of containment, pure speculation necessarily must rely on its own subjectivity - it must produce a theoretical object, which can only be the fruit of its own subjectivity, and then work towards it. But pure theory is limitless, and how is one to test it? How does one distinguish between theoria and fantasia?

Revelation is God saying "Here I am," and immediately the speculation is then ordered towards its object. Immediately man has something he can, in a sense, come to grips with.

Eckhart, whilst on the one hand is a Prince among Christian mystics, on the other hand was actually employed reforming various Dominican houses which had got carried away by just such ill-focused theosophical speculations.

We can see this is the Neoplatonism of Plotinus, who fought against the gnostics of his time, and rued the fact he was unable to convert them from their beliefs.

Ibn' Arabi! A good friend of mine wags his finger at me regularly for not reading him. I must try and make time.

Thomas

[pohaikawahine]

we started with "Theosophy is a body of ideas which holds that all religions are attempts by man to ascertain "the Divine," and as such each religion has a portion of the truth" and I would only add that not only does each religion have a portion of the truth, many ancient ways of life have a portion of the truth ....


in the Popol Vuh the gods created the first four men with perfect vision .... only this was not satisfactory because these men were almost as perfect as the gods and therefore could not pay homage to them properly .... so the gods brought a fog down into the eyes of the first four and they could not see as well .... what is the lesson .... each has their own piece of the great puzzle and only together can they see the whole .....

in australia each section of a song-cycle belongs to a person and the entire song-cycle belongs to the clan - thus in order for a song-cycle to achieve complete identity,it must be rendfered by the entire group ....

call it theosophy, call it religion, call it a way of life, call it mana .... mana is the energy flowing through all living things, it can be harnessed and gathered by man to increase his own power but only if he can find the source .... we spend our whole lives seeking its source .... the seed of all things lies buried within us until the gift of mana is offered to it .... a seed regenerates and never dies .... it sprouts and grows again .... all our strength and power lies in finding our source of mana ... in a small book called ano'ano (the seed) by K. Zambuka lies a source of wisdom that stems from the ancients of hawaii-nei .... but they were not the only ancients with this knowledge, it is universal and each holds a piece of the truth .... it is found in the oral tradition and in the sounds .... he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine

[Thomas]

Hi Pohaikawahine -

Agreed.

I think one has to determine the difference between 'theosophy' and 'theology' and I would suggest the answer lies in their mode of knowing.

Theosophy is arrived at through the operations of the reason and the intellect applied to the phenomenal world - Ammonius Saccas being, in the west, widely regarded as the 'founder' of theosophy - more accurately he is a proponent - everyone engages in theosophy, even if they determine there is nothing there.

Theology is arrived at through the operations of the reason and the intellect applied to the data Revelation. By its very name that which is 'revealed' lies beyond the powers of human nature to discern.

+++

Your comment on The Seed brought to mind this:
"This Atma, which dwells in the heart, is smaller than a grain of rice, smaller than a grain of barley, smaller than a grain of mustard, smaller than a grain of millet, smaller than the germ which is in the grain of millet; this Atma, which dwells in the heart, is also greater than the earth (gross manifestation), greater than the atmosphere (subtle manifestation), greater than the sky (formless manifestation), greater than all the worlds together (beyond all modes of manifestation)."
Chhandogya Upanishad III.14.3

"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof."
Matthew 13:31-32

The tree, in this case, comprises the ontological source of all modes of manifestation, formal (subtle and gross) and formless. The 'birds of the air' represent higher or angelic modes of being, which in themselves have parallels with another Hindu text:

"Two birds, inseparably united companions, dwell in the same tree, the one eats of the fruit of the tree, while the other looks on without eating."
Mundaka Upanishad III.1.1; Shvetashvatara Upanisdhad IV.6)
The first bird is jivatma, involved in the realm of action and consequence (karma), the second is unconditioned Atma, pure Knowledge.
(René Guénon "Man and His Becoming According to the Vedanta")

And if we pursue the birds allegory, then we have to acknowledge "The Conference of Birds" by Farid Ud-Din Attar, a twelfth-century Persian Sufi poet and mystic.

Thomas

[taijasi]

Speaking of Eckhart, I think a few quotations might be helpful in demonstrating that that within Theosophy, or more properly, the Esoteric Teachings which the Theosophical Movement has helped promote ... there is indeed Revelation, since there is a spiritual faculty by which we can know.

Esotericists call this faculty the Intuition, and distinguish it from emotion, and from any vague sentiment that we often confound with this faculty of straight knowledge ... or certainty. Nor is the intuition the function of Intellect, or Manas (mind), although of necessity the knowing must reflect itself into the mind, in order to then become impressed upon the brain, the outer instrument of awareness.

The Theosophical and esoteric model of human awareness describes our personality, or strictly mortal self, as consisting of three faculties, or aspects of consciousness. Of these, the physical body is not one, for it is but the vehicle, or outer covering of the Hebrew nephesh, or Breath of Life ... also called prana, chi, and the elan vital - or `vital self.' This prana itself resides in the etheric body, which Egyptians called `ka,' and which is technically, still physical - being the model body, upon which the dense body is molded.

We also have an emotional body, and a mental body (or mind), which are ensouled by kama-manas, or our emotions and our thoughts, respectively. So together, the kama-manas, or human personality, manifests through its outward vital soul, the three coming together as one through the agency of the brain, nervous system, and senses of the dense body. The personality, as a triplicity, can be expressed thus:

1. Mind
2. Emotions
3. Etheric Body (or outer activity)

The second and Higher Trinity, of every human soul ... is the Inner Person, or Higher Self, the "inner man" which esoteric teachings reveal in dozens of various symbolisms, and which every sacred teaching reveals ... as our true self. Theosophically, these princples are as follows:

1. Atma - Universal Spirit
2. Buddhi - Spiritual Soul
3. Manas - Individualized Soul, or Higher Mind

And these are a higher trinity of human faculties, shared by every man and woman upon the planet, and also shared with our Divine Parent, the Biblical ONE in Whom we live and move and have our Being. The Elder among Brethren is therefore different than us in degree, and not in Essence. For in Essence, all are Spirit, and in some future cycle of evolution, our stature will be as God's. This, even a child can sense and know, in its purity ... yet only a fool will declare, "I am God," as if such attainment were possible in the present cycle. Only by steps do we climb Jacob's Ladder, yet rung by rung do we verily ascend. And lovingly, the Divine looks down upon us, knowing us from that high position ... as well as through the very Presence of Spirit within us.

The functioning of Higher Mind, or Divine Intellect, is something which Theosophists and esotericists certainly believe is possible ... for any thinker who can elevate him or herself beyond self-centered and purely earthly thinking, has already touched this higher potential. Higher Manas unfolds gradually, yet it is the first Divine Aspect of consciousness to display itself in our outer awareness ... and it could be said to unfold as a triplicity, in connection with lower mind, with emotions, and with outward physical activity. Its perfection may not occur for many lifetimes, but anyone who has experienced Divine Inspiration and Illumination, however briefly, has known the Light of Wisdom which rays itself forth from the Principle of Manas.

But the Theosophist or esotericist who has followed faithfully the path of spiritual unfoldment, has aspired toward an even greater faculty of consciousness ... and that is Buddhi, or the Intuition. Sometimes called Straight Knowledge, the Intuition simply knows, because it allows the knower to become ONE with the object (sentient or non-sentient) of cognition. Unlike intellect, which always distinguishes between object and knower (even in Divine mode), Buddhi is able to simply behold ... or as the Christian Scripture puts it, "Be still, and Know that I am God" (although technically, this Revelation also belongs to the faculty of Atma).

No person who has experienced the Bliss and Unity of Buddhic awareness could confuse this with some kind of false awareness, or delusion. Just the opposite, such fortunate experiencers are finally able to see the reason why the delusion of self (or sakkayadhitti) is so dangerous. Never again, after an experience of Buddhic Unity, or Bliss, can a person be completely submerged in the illusion of separativeness. Always, s/he will strive for the Light, and for the all-embracing Love which is to be found upon the Buddhic plane. And if developed, and applied to a particular matter, the Buddhic faculty will immediately reveal the truth of things. No confusion or doubt can enter in, save in the interpretation imposed by the personality ... and that is the shortfall, even of those who might have such a spiritual experience - since lower mind must gradually become illumined and attuned to the higher faculties, if proper and accurate interpretation is to ensue.

But to receive such training from the wise sages of both East and West, especially if taken into their immediate company, and prepared for the mission of Messenger and Revealer of the Wisdom Teaching ... is surely grounds enough to take seriously the contributions of those who have received such an honor, and who have fulfilled the work assigned to them. Among Theosophists, almost without dispute the writings of H. P. Blavatsky, a Russian immigrant to the US in the mid-nineteenth century, fit into such a category ... of Divine Revelation, precisely because they were dictated by those for whom Atmic, Buddhic, and Higher Manasic consciousness is fully unfolded and perfected, and for whom error, as we know it, is practically non-existent. That HPB made errors is not questioned, but her works remain, for both Theosophists and nearly all esotericists, as perhaps the single greatest contribution in the spirit of Wisdom and Divine Revelation in the modern era.

Other contributions, such as the works of Alice Bailey, Helena Roerich, and others, are also regarded in this light, because likewise, they are seen as the evidence, themselves, of the functioning of the higher spiritual faculties in the authors ... through which, and via their lower correspondence (an illumined mind, a steady emotional calm - upon which can be reflected the inner realities of the spiritual worlds, and an outer organism finely attuned to the vibrations of the dictating Master) - Revelation most certainly has come. But the ultimate test comes, not in the blind acceptance of some proclamation from the unknowing, but in the inward verification by the student him or herself, via his or her own Intuition. When this inner certainty arrives, there can be no doubt, and swift action is then what is expected ... putting into practice whatever ideal one has been striving toward, and using all skillful means at one's disposal.

As for Revelation, a quote from Alice Bailey, from the book The Reappearance of the Christ, is in order:

"Ever down the ages, and at every great human crisis, always in the hours of necessity, at the founding of a new race, or in the awakening of a prepared humanity to a new and wider vision, the Heart of God - impelled by the Law of Compassion - sends forth a Teacher, a world Savior, an Illuminator, an Avatar, a transmitting Intermediary, a Christ. He gives the message which will heal, which will indicate the next step to be taken by the race of men, which will illumine a dark world problem and give to man an expression of some hitherto unrealized aspect of divinity. Upon this fact of the continuity of revelation and upon the sequence of this progressive manifestation of the divine Nature, is based the doctrine of Avatars, divine Messengers, divine Appearances and Saviors. To Them all, history unmistakenly testifies. It is upon the fact of this continuity, this sequence of Messengers and Avatars, and upon the dire and dreadful need of humanity at this time, that the worldwide expectancy of the reappearance of the Christ is based. It is the innate recognition of all these facts that has led to the steadily mounting invocative cry of humanity in every land for some form of divine relief or divine intervention; it is the recognition of these facts which also prompts the order which has gone forth from "the center where the will of God is known" [the Father's House] that the Avatar should come again; it is the knowledge of both these demands which has led the Christ to let His disciples in every land know that He will reappear when they have done the needed preparatory work." (pp. 10-11)

I believe that is clear enough.

As for the development of the faculty of Intuition, which will eventually supersede the Intellect within all of Humanity (albeit after vast eons), consider that only as we break through the highest realms of Intellect can we hope to reach the Buddhic Realm (the Buddhist Sambhogakaya), and thus Meister Eckhart's words ring true:

"There is one power in the soul: intellect, of prime importance to the soul for making her aware of, for detecting, God... The soundest arguments expressly state (what is the truth) that the kernel of eternal life lies rather in knowledge than in love... The soul is not dependent upon temporal things but in the exaltation of her mind is in communication with the things of God."

Thus the Knower does direct the Intellect upon the object of his search, in this case, God. And not as the mystic, but as one who seeks to balance the highest faculties of mind with those of loving aspiration, does he proceed. As Dr. Müller-Freienfels puts it, he

"no longer speak of 'his' soul, but of the universal soul which manifests itself in him, and unfolds itself in him as in all other creatures, and will endure even though this illusion of individuality perishes... He will live his life as 'life', that is, as self-realization and self-completion, with the consciousness that it is not merely his own self that is being realized and perfected, but the universe, the deity, of whom this apparent self is a part." - Mysteries of the Soul, p. 336.

Again, I cannot say it better than Meister Eckhart:

"Knowledge raises the soul to the rank of God; love unites the soul with God; use perfects the soul to God. These three transport the soul right out of time into eternity."

This speaks directly of the Intuitive faculty of Buddhi, and perhaps also of the Atmic consciousness, which lies beyond - where Unity is known, not as the coming together of distinct entities, but rather as an underlying synthesis, or a pre-existent, inherent whole ... called in the East, non-duality.

And finally, Alice Bailey puts this all into context, by explaining it thus:

"The illumination of the mind by the soul, and the throwing down into the waiting and attentive "mind-stuff" of that knowledge and wisdom which is the prerogative of the soul, produce, in the truly unified and coordinated man, results which differ according to the part of his instrument with which contact is effected.

The effect on the mind is direct apprehension of truth and direct understanding of a knowledge which is so wide and synthetic in its grasps that we cover it by the nebulous term, the Universal Mind. This type of knowledge is sometimes called the Intuition, and is one of the main characteristics of illumination."
- From Intellect to Intuition, p. 160

Now in comparison with Alice, I am a dolt, so I expect I've managed to muck this up somehow, but I do think I understand what she's getting at. And while my intellect is about as dull as they come, it is not without that bright glimmer, or spark within, which is even yet capable of registering something of the subtler realities ... of which Alice, Meister Eckhart, and others speak. What is required, as esotericists put it, of one who would come to know Truth ... is the ability to hold the mind steady in the Light. And this is what affords for Divine Revelation, allowing a higher knowing, an altogether greater state of being and of awareness, to demonstrate itself in our lesser being. But again, unless we are coordinated, properly attuned, and prepared through long & arduous discipline for such Revelation, we should probably not expect to find the Greater Mysteries suddenly pouring through. For that, I trust, we must keep on keeping on, as Alice would say.

My essay of the day, apologies for the usual length, and extensive quotations ...

Andrew

[taijasi]

I did find one more quote, from Esoteric Healing, which is useful in helping to see the distinction between the mystic and the occultist (or esotericist):

"The mystic is ever conscious of duality. He is the seeker in search of light, of the soul, of the beloved, of that higher something which he senses as existing and as that which can be found. He strives after recognition of and by the divine; he is the follower of the vision, a disciple of the Christ, and this conditions his thinking and his aspiration. He is a devotee and one who loves the apparently unattainable - the Other than himself.

Only when he becomes the occultist does the mystic learn that all the time the magnet which attracted him, and the dualism which colored his life and thoughts and which gave motive to all he sought to do, was his true self, the one Reality. He recognizes then that assimilation into and identification with that one reality enables duality to be transmuted into unity and the sense of search to be transformed into the effort to become what he essentially is - a Son of God, one with all Sons of God. Having accomplished that, he finds himself one with the One in Whom we live and move and have our being." (pp 117-118)

The Beauty of this, imho, is that the author does not invalidate the path of the mystic, since it is in itself of value, and an important stage on the spiritual path. Likewise, all those who practice an exoteric religion, whether sticking strictly to a particular tradition, or choosing to take a more blended, interfaith approach ... can be seen as treading the path that is right for them. It would be arrogant indeed, to insist that everyone suddenly abandon what works for him or herself at the moment, and artificially adopt another tradition, or way of knowing. Whom would this profit?

And that is why, among Theosophists and esotericists, there are those of all faiths and spiritual traditions, since generally Theosophy is accepted by such people as enriching the path that one walks, as well as vice versa. If there are those who have difficulty with this, or who prefer to choose a spiritual path and "stick with it," then I recommend that they do just that. Why on earth would one try to become a Sikh, if one has no interest in the Sikh religion, and if one is more comfortable as a Muslim? Dear lord, it would make no sense!

anyway, just ramblings ... and my point was, that the goal of the true Theosophist, or Esotericist, is as described above. Usually such people come from a strong interest in, or history of experiences with, mysticism. And from this natural recapitulatory set of experiences, s/he proceeds with the science of occultism. Soon, s/he learns that the one goal of the true occultist is selfless service to others, and this is where the real work of discipleship begins ...

andrew

[Nick the Pilot]

Hi everybody!

Is anyone still interested in discussing Theosophy? I have been a Theosophical member for many years, and I would like to hear anyone's take on Theosophy.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Hi everybody!

Is anyone still interested in discussing Theosophy? I have been a Theosophical member for many years, and I would like to hear anyone's take on Theosophy.

Hi Nick, Welcome to CR.

I think Andrew still posts here and perhaps others also are interested in Theosophy. If you have a particular topic you are interested in why not start a new thread?

Also, stop by the introductions board below and introduce yourself.

cheers,
lunamoth

[Zagreus]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Hi everybody!

Is anyone still interested in discussing Theosophy? I have been a Theosophical member for many years, and I would like to hear anyone's take on Theosophy.

Hi, Nick,

I posted a reply on the Intros forum, and I wanted to respond here as well. Your contributions would be most welcome!

I've posted at CR as Taijasi, and for awhile now as Zagreus. Sometimes I've mentioned a Theosophical background, but I'm not sure everyone at CR is familiar with what that means. Anything you could share or offer from your own perspective and experience(s) would be wonderful!

One topic that was under discussion earlier in this thread was the idea of spiritual Revelation, and how Theosophy (or Theosophists) regard(s) this. Perhaps that would be an appropriate subject to comment on, since there is also a hot thread on the Liberal Christianity forum right now on the (Christian) Book of Revelation.

Just an idea ...

Love and Light,

andrew

[InLove]

Originally Posted by Zagreus

Sometimes I've mentioned a Theosophical background

Sometimes? (I'm just cajoling, Zag. ) (I'll try to stop. )

InPeace,
InLove

[Nick the Pilot]

Andrew,

You have suggested I describe what a Theosophical background is. That is such a big topic, it is hard to say where to begin.

Theosophy has been described in many ways, but perhaps the shortest description is that it is a society that studies different religions. Theosophy believes that all religions come from the same source, and that all religions sprang from a common set of beliefs and teachings. Theosophy tries to show the commonality of all religions.

Spiritual Revelation? I suppose you mean where we get our information about "life in the hereafter"? Theosophy definitely has teachings in this area, beginning with karma and reincarnation. This puts it at odds with the conventional Christian teachings of today. As a matter of fact, Theosophy has a lot to say about the ideas in The Book of Revelations, but the Theososphical teachings are quite a radical departure from conventional Christian teachings.

You said,

"...there is also a hot thread on the Liberal Christianity forum right now on the (Christian) Book of Revelation."

--> I have two reactions to that. First, I am not a Christian, and my interpretations of The Book of Revelations is quite different than the conventional Christian interpretation. I probably will not post in that thread, because it is in the Christian Section, and it would be improper for me to go there and criticise their religion. (Any questions placed in this thread, however, will be answered.)

I could go there and debate with Christians, but I do not debate with Christians. Debates are a win/loss situation, and often involve people trying to manipulate others into thinking the same way.

My second reaction is that The Book of Revelations hints at ideas that are very much a part of my (Theosophical) belief system, beliefs that do not fit the contemporary Christian way of looking at things.

But that is why we have this Forum, isn't it? To look at new ideas, and to give people a chance to look at new ideas? That is a good idea.

[pohaikawahine]

[quote=Nick the Pilot;92266]Andrew,

You have suggested I describe what a Theosophical background is. That is such a big topic, it is hard to say where to begin.

Theosophy has been described in many ways, but perhaps the shortest description is that it is a society that studies different religions. Theosophy believes that all religions come from the same source, and that all religions sprang from a common set of beliefs and teachings. Theosophy tries to show the commonality of all religions. ] end quote

I do believe that all religions as well as many ways of life (some are not referred to as 'religions') have a connection in an ancient path of knowledge and wisdom .... we are all connected in the potential to become whole again once we remember who we are and begin to see with our inner eyes and our soul .... the way of the mystic is a strong part of that connection but even today many who say they walk the mystic path do not see well .... in the ancient ways of hawaii-nei we might simply call it the spiralling energy, the dragon energy, even our stories and legends of a goddess called Pele are simply stories that have buried in them this ancient knowledge of energy .... we must learn to go within ourselves through meditation, chant, or deep prayer (whatever will take our minds away from the mundane emotions of the earthly world and move us to a higher frequency of thought) and move the spiralling energy upward into the center of the brain (the altar, the cave of the bear, the location of the holy grail, whatever you want to call it) and when we can bridge the three hemispheres to become One, we begin the process of the regathering of the twelve pairs of cranial nerves that operate the system of seven .... Theosophy (from what I have read and studied) tries to pull all the esoteric and not so esoteric systems together to do the same thing .... it is sometimes too confusing for me (the words and ideas seem to cover the simplicity of the system with far too many philosophies) .... every thing is buried deep in the knowledge left by the ancient people .... but not so deep that we cannot relocate it and apply it to our lives .... it is buried in the "ancient ocean" which exists within each of us .... "ka au moana" .... he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine

[Nick the Pilot]

Pohaika Wahine,

Aloha ahiahi kaua.

You said,

"...many ways of life (some are not referred to as 'religions')...."

--> I prefer to use the term "belief system". Therefore, I have a belief system, not a religion.

"I do believe that all religions as well as many ways of life (some are not referred to as 'religions') have a connection in an ancient path of knowledge and wisdom...."

--> I agree.

".... we are all connected in the potential to become whole again once we remember who we are and begin to see with our inner eyes and our soul...."

--> I agree. We are are on a journey along a Path. To some, this journey is really a return to somewhere. Unfortunately, it is difficult to see where we were, and where we will be. That is why some people say our job is to concentrate on our present position on the Path, for that is the only thing we can be sure of.

" .... the way of the mystic is a strong part of that connection but even today many who say they walk the mystic path do not see well...."

To improperly walk the way of a mystic path can also bring one to danger as well as not seeing well. Great care is needed here.

"...even our stories and legends of a goddess called Pele are simply stories that have buried in them this ancient knowledge of energy...."

--> I am curious. How do you feel when you hear the story of the woman who climbed up to Pele's volcano and defied her (and threw kapu fruit into the volcano, if I remember correctly), and brought Hawai'i into "the modern age"?

" .... we must learn to go within ourselves through meditation, chant, or deep prayer (whatever will take our minds away from the mundane emotions of the earthly world and move us to a higher frequency of thought)...."

--> I agree. We allow our mundane thoughts to run wild. Meditation, chant, or deep prayer can bring back our self-control.

"...and move the spiralling energy upward into the center of the brain (the altar, the cave of the bear, the location of the holy grail, whatever you want to call it)...."

--> I agree learning to control such energy is a good idea, but I have also heard it can be dangerous. I hope all who do so, do so with an experienced teacher.

"...when we can bridge the three hemispheres to become One, we begin the process of the regathering of the twelve pairs of cranial nerves that operate the system of seven .... Theosophy (from what I have read and studied) tries to pull all the esoteric and not so esoteric systems together to do the same thing...."

--> Theosophy teaches the value of meditation, but does not go into the specifics of how to meditate. (That is left to individual teachers.) In my opinion, Theosophy does not teach the unifying of different parts of the brain, but the unifying of the physical body, the astral body, the mind, and other aspects. But you are right, Theosophy teaches a unification of the whole person.

".... every thing is buried deep in the knowledge left by the ancient people...."

--> As a matter of fact, the main purpose of Theosophy is to reteach ancient teachings that have been lost.

".... it is buried in the "ancient ocean" which exists within each of us...."

--> I agree. The trick is to learn how to access this "ancient ocean". Each belief system has its own method, and Theosophy respects the different methods of each belief system.

A hui ho,

Nick

[Nick the Pilot]

Thomas,

Please forgive me for joining this discussion so late, but there are a few statements I would like to comment upon.

"I question its validity from a Catholic standpoint...."

--> The relationship between Blavatskian Theosophy and the church has been contentious over the years. It is hoped that these discussions will open up more communication between Catholics and Theosophists. (I must admit, rare is the day, indeed, that I see a meaningful discussion between members of the two groups. If you and I are of the two, I hope this can be time well spent.)

"Theosophy then, as a belief, relies on the idea that man can know God through the operation of the intellect alone."

--> Using the definition of Theosophy as described by Blavatsky, I would disagree. (Blavatskian) Theosophy does not accept the idea of a monotheistic God. Theosophists believe in something called the Absolute, but it is not the same as the Creator God -- not even close.

"The JudeoChristian tradition is neither monistic nor pantheistic, and this was why Christianity refused (as had the Jews before them) any accommodation with the pagan world."

--> Chrisitianity is a pantheistic religion (per the Bible itself), yet Christianity tells everyone it is monotheistic. I feel Chrisitianity struggles with mono- and pan-theism, just as Judiasm does.

"...Freemasons hold they are in receipt of a Secret Doctrine which dates back to the time of Solomon, and the symbolism of the Temple."

--> This is a very important concept to Theosophists, and the commonality between the two is appreciated.

"...The Theosophical Society claims itself to be the very hub of the wheel of religion, and without the correct interpretation of the world's great religious scriptures, as mediated by the TS, all religions are bankrupt, lost and meaningless."

--> I would disagree with this statement. The Theosophical Society is but an imperfect instrument for the dissemination of the Ancient Wisdom, as Blavatsky was quick to point out. The Ancient Wisdom is periodically re-released, and Theosophy is but one release in a long series of releases. And I must disagree with the idea that all religions are bankrupt, lost and meaningless without TS mediation. (I would say the entire Theosophical Society was created for the purpose of proving the opposite to be true.)

"The Catholic Church acknowledges the Sacred Texts of the world's religions as issuing from a sacred source, and furthermore regards all other religions as valid and authentic means of attaining salvation - but then Theosphy would say that we are wrong on that point, too."

--> I must say, I am surprised by this statement. Really? Can salvation be achieved by not going through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit? I would like to see a quote on that.

[Thomas]

Hi Nick – welcome to CR

Chrisitianity is a pantheistic religion (per the Bible itself) that tells everyone it is monotheistic. I feel Chrisitianity struggles with mono- pan-theism just like Judiasm.

Well, I shall not speak for Judaism, but I think the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo precludes any mode of pantheism. For clarity I would suggest a careful reading of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Para 285:
Since the beginning the Christian faith has been challenged by responses to the question of origins that differ from its own ... Some philosophers have said that everything is God, that the world is God, or that the development of the world is the development of God (Pantheism)...

The text goes on to refute Dualism, Manichaeism, Gnosticism, Deism and Materialism.

Para 295:
We believe that God created the world according to his wisdom. It is not the product of any necessity whatever, nor of blind fate or chance. We believe that it proceeds from God's free will; he wanted to make his creatures share in his being, wisdom and goodness: "For you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created." Therefore the Psalmist exclaims: "O LORD, how manifold are your works! In wisdom you have made them all"; and "The LORD is good to all, and his compassion is over all that he has made."

I would disagree with this statement (the bankruptcy of world religions). The Theosophical Society is but an imperfect instrument for the dissemination of the Ancient Wisdom, as Blavatsky was quick to point out. The Ancient Wisdom is periodically re-released, and Theosophy is but one release in a long series of releases. And I must disagree with the idea that all religions are bankrupt, lost and meaningless without TS mediation.

I am glad to hear it. I based my comment on what had been said to me, and sadly a recent quotation (below), has not altered my opinion in that regard...

Quoting from the famous Maha Chohan's Letter of 1881:

"... That the world is in such a bad condition, morally, is a conclusive evidence that none of its religions and philosophies, those of the civilized races less than any other, has ever possessed the truth ... They are as far from the solution as they were; but to these problems there must be somewhere a consistent solution, and if our doctrines will show their competence to offer it, then the world will be the first to confess that there must be the true philosophy, the true religion, the true light, which gives truth and nothing but the truth."

... in all honesty I don't think one is obliged to 'read between the lines' to see the clear implication of this text.

I said:
"The Catholic Church acknowledges the Sacred Texts of the world's religions as issuing from a sacred source, and furthermore regards all other religions as valid and authentic means of attaining salvation... "

You comment:
I must say, I am surprised by this statement. Really? Can salvation be achieved by not going through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit? I would like to see a quote on that.
Which is not quite what I said. To clarify, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Para 842:
The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city...

Para 843:
The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

Para 2566:
Man is in search of God. In the act of creation, God calls every being from nothingness into existence. "Crowned with glory and honor," man is, after the angels, capable of acknowledging "how majestic is the name of the Lord in all the earth." Even after losing through his sin his likeness to God, man remains an image of his Creator, and retains the desire for the one who calls him into existence. All religions bear witness to men's essential search for God.

Pax, and again, welcome,

Thomas