What is Truth?!

[path_of_one]

Yep, that was my interpretation of the story too. That it's not about strict moral codes. It's about ethical action- finding God's will and acting in love and compassion toward people.

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Yep, that was my interpretation of the story too. That it's not about strict moral codes. It's about ethical action- finding God's will and acting in love and compassion toward people.

It continues to surprise me that people get caught up debating whether what Jesus does in that story was technically a violation of the Law or not. The story not only assumes that it was against the Law, but it's necessary that it was for the story to make its point.

Otherwise, the point of the story would be that Jesus understood the intracacies of the Law better than the Pharisees and knew he could get away with something they mistakenly thought was wrong.

But that wouldn't be much of a story.

[Knowledge]

For: Path of One

But who is to say who is saved and who is not?

The Bible says that we are to dercern and examine to see if we're in the faith. There are certian fruits that will be produced if someone is truely saved. If one says he is saved, and doesnt produce good fruit, he is a liar. This by the way, isnt my words, but the Bible's.

There are many interpretations of the Bible by many who claim to be saved and to know our Lord Jesus as Savior. I am merely a human being. How can I know their heart?

Honestly, there is ONLY ONE interpretation of the Bible -- God's interpreatation. If we let the scriptures interprete itself, we will be OK. That said, there are certain doctrins ro teachings that we Christians can agree to disagree on, e.g., the rapture, its timing, prophecy, etc. But, the core fundations, we cannot disagree on - the Person of Jesus, Salvation through grace, the Trinity, etc. Lastly, while we cannot know whats in another person's heart, we can know them by their fruits they produce. Jesus said no good tree will produce bad fruits. Likewise, no good Christian, will produce bad fruit.

Well, Christ taught non-judgment, love, peace, compassion, healing, taking care of the poor... So if these actions are not evident in someone, then I can assume they are not working from a place of truth.

Think about this for a sec. If Jesus only taught about peace, compassion and love, they would have not killed him. They Religous Jews tried TEN TIMES to kill Jesus before he got to the cross. Why? Because, while he was the most tolerant man ever, he remained intolerant towards religion and other ways. Jesus knowing that he IS THE ONLY way to God, said it because he desiers to save men. He didnt lie when he made that claim. That said, the characteristics you mentioned are great, and we all should work towards getting them, but they are not the fruits the Bible talks about. Read the Book of Glations for the fruits.

That sounds rather judgmental to me. Who are the "unsaved" and how do we know their hearts?

The unsaved are those that are not born agian. We're all born sinners because of the sin DNA in us. This is why we MUST be born agian! About how we will no. Well, I answered that above. You will know the Children of God by their fruits! Please recornize that while they're are many sincere people in the world that do good things. The fact is, unless they repent and put their trust in Jesus (Born again), they remain unsaved, and thus end up being sincerly wrong!

This statement also is teleological- we know the truth, so we can tell you all about it, but it's not judgment because we have special knowledge you don't have. Think about the statement outside its context for a second- how would you feel if a Buddhist said "True Buddhists don't judge, we just tell the truth. The truth is you all are not getting it and will reincarnate again and suffer some more because you're missing the point of life." Would you be offended?

First of all, I never said Christians have a special knowledge, I said we recornize that we're sinners in need of a Savior. Why? Because we understand that if we rob a bank or sell drugs, a life of good deeds wont negate the crime that has already been done. When confronted in a court of law, we will still have to pay for those crimes. This is the same way with God. Because we've broken his Laws (Ten Commandments), we're guilty and worthy of his just punishment. We Christians dont try to save ourselves by good deeds, but instead, we repent, and put our trust in Jesus, the one that paid our fine. Knowing and excepting this truth, has made us redeemed children of God, who now have a relationship with God, and not a religion. Now, all that said, I do see you're point, so here's what I propose. Take Jesus on his word. Repent (STOP sinning), ask him into your life, and read the Bible. God will do the proving!

Also, how do we know God perceives of them as enemies?

God's words tell me so.

Rather, I think He perceives all His children- indeed, all His creation- as precious.

Its good that you admit that you "think" rather than saying you "know." Truely, we are all Children of God, but those that never come to Jesus never get redeemed. This is why Jesus came to die -- to Redeem us back from sin that seperated us from God.

But the bulk of the people who are "unsaved" love God and are good people, though they follow a different spiritual path.

I agree most people love God. Thats obvious. Yet still, most people dont know what God has done for them to come into a real realtionship with him. Instead, people seek to find their own way, leaning on their own understanding, and dont trust on God. The Bible says that God has written his Laws on our hearts. Why? It was for us to understand that we are not good by his standards, and that we NEED a Savior. The Bible also says that God gave us a conscience to convict us on this truth. If you lie or steal, no one has to tell you that you did something wrong, you just KNOW! Again, this is because God's laws are on your heart, trying to wake you up to God's truth. Have you ever wonder why your conscience ONLY convicts you of moral issues, and why it is not bais, even to you?

I agree with the view that all who seek God are on the same path, but we just don't think we are because of our limited understanding. "

Religion gives man a false sense of how good he is when in true he is far from the word! No good deed can take away the fact that you've sined and broken God's laws. ALL religion tell you to do good deeds, but Jesus says come to him that you may be forgiven. Why? Because, when you step into God's court room, Jesus, your advocate can say, "I already paid his fine, he is FREE!" No other religion or religious figure offers such hope. Try Jesus!

1. "God's laws" as put forth in the Bible were for the Jewish people.

Actually, God's Laws were first given to the Jew; for his own reason, but are ment for the whole world!

2. Just because someone isn't perfect doesn't mean they are not good. God created at least some good in us, because we have the capacity and desire to turn toward God and act morally.

Are you a good person? Have you ever lied, lusted, stole something, called God's name in vain, wanted what someone else wanted? That's only five out of ten laws. Please note: You dont have to break all the links in a chain to brake the chain. Destroy one, and the chain is broken. That said, it should be said that God created us to be Good. The first humans we're perfect. But, when they disobeyed God, the curse of sin effected the world, and everything in it, including them. Also, it doesnt matter if we desier to do good or seek after good things. Why? Because, our righteousness, the Bible says, are that of filty rags. Why? Because we're cursed with sin. Come to Jesus that you may know true righteousness!

3. Whether or not we NEED a savior depends on whether you are coming from a Christian theology, and even some Christians don't think the point of the Christ was just his death on the cross, but rather the point was his teachings.

The truth that ALL need a Savior is written on your heart. Look at yourself in the mirrior of God's Devine Law -- The Ten Commendments. Jugde yourself with the Law, and listen to your conscience.

Jesus himself said numerous times ways to enter the Kingdom of Heaven/God, and most of these ways were tied to action. I'm happy to provide the oodles of Biblical scriptures if need be.


Please do. It will be interesting to read. That said, I want to remind you that Jesus said time and again that Salavation is ONLY through him. This is the underlining mesesage of the WHOLE Bible, incidentially.

But read the Gospels carefully and you'll see that Jesus frequently discussed Kingdom of Heaven in relation to action (or check out the Kingdom of Heaven thread on this forum- really interesting stuff).

Really? Please shear scripture! Before you do though, here's one that just poped into my head. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." What do you think of that?

4. Jesus also talks about having the faith of a child. Children don't think inherently that they're bad, that the Father God won't let them into heaven, that they needed blood to atone for their mistakes (after all, sin is "missing the mark."). Children just know that God is there for them, that He loves them, and that one day they will get to be with Him.

You're right! Children dont think that they are bad. But, like you said, they trust in their parants love for them. This is what Jesus was talking about. Have the trust of your Heavenly father who says that you need to run away from religion that offers vain hope, and run to the Savior who offers eternal life.

According to the law, you are not allowed to work on the Sabbath. Healing is work, even miraculous healing. There are also other examples where the disciples and Jesus picked grain on the Sabbath. Also not allowed by the law.

Jesus sais: [i]"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."[i] Apparently Jesus saw passed the hypocrites who faked their walk with God by pointing out he was "breaking the law," when infact, he was obeying the 2 most important laws:

1. Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and body.

2. Love mankind as you love yourself.

Later,

Knowledge

[path_of_one]

If one says he is saved, and doesnt produce good fruit, he is a liar. This by the way, isnt my words, but the Bible's.

This is actually exactly what I said, see below.

God's interpreatation. If we let the scriptures interprete itself, we will be OK.

And I suppose that you somehow have God's commentary on how the Bible is to be interpreted? Sorry, but I don't think any of us humans on earth has God's interpretation. All we have is the Word, and it is up to us to interpret it. Scriptures do not interpret themselves. If they did, people wouldn't need pastors, biblical scholars, translators, Bible dictionaries, or Bible studies. We can call upon the Holy Spirit to help us understand them, however.

Think about this for a sec. If Jesus only taught about peace, compassion and love, they would have not killed him.

Where in scripture did Jesus preach intolerance of others? The most he ever said was that he was sent for the Jewish people, and that his disciples were not to enter Gentile towns. They didn't kill him because he was intolerant. They killed him because he was gaining a large following and the elite (both Jewish and Roman) were worried that he would cause social and political problems.

That said, the characteristics you mentioned are great, and we all should work towards getting them, but they are not the fruits the Bible talks about. Read the Book of Glations for the fruits.

I had said:
Well, Christ taught non-judgment, love, peace, compassion, healing, taking care of the poor... So if these actions are not evident in someone, then I can assume they are not working from a place of truth.

Galatians 5:22-23 says:
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control; against such there is no law."

I'm failing to see the difference. They are completely in line with each other. My former list was not exhaustive, but Jesus did teach what I listed, and this conforms to the fruits of the Spirit.

You will know the Children of God by their fruits!

I know quite a few non-Christians that bear the fruit discussed in the Galatians scripture above. A great example we all can relate to is Ghandi. He was not Christian, but he exhibited all the fruits of the Spirit.

Take Jesus on his word. Repent (STOP sinning), ask him into your life, and read the Bible. God will do the proving!

Well... thanks for the advice. But Jesus is already in my life and I already read and study the Bible. And as I am a mystic, I'm already focused on my personal relationship with God and insight into scripture. I am not a mainstream Christian, nor do I claim to be. I am a follower of Christ, however, and I count him as my Lord. There is a lot of variety in Christianity, and to me it is pointless for some of us to point to others and say they are not "real" Christians. I believe in sharing ideas without judgment or evangelizing, and rejoicing that so many people in the world are seeking God and truth, and are trying to lead ethical lives. I share my beliefs when asked or in a forum like this, but I believe that my actions should reflect God's love and teachings and that it is unneccessary for me to tell people what they should do with their spirituality.

Its good that you admit that you "think" rather than saying you "know."

Of course I admit that. I am just a human being. I am not God and so I cannot completely comprehend God or know how God thinks, feels, behaves, etc. I believe we all see only glimpses of a Being that is so great, so incomprehensibly and vastly bigger than us and our minds, that we can only say that we "have experienced" this, or "think" or "believe" that. I would never claim to *know* everything about God.

ALL religion tell you to do good deeds, but Jesus says come to him that you may be forgiven.

Actually, Jesus said: "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your heavenly Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:14-15).

Are you a good person? Have you ever lied, lusted, stole something, called God's name in vain, wanted what someone else wanted?

Again, as I said good does not equal perfect.

Please do. It will be interesting to read. That said, I want to remind you that Jesus said time and again that Salavation is ONLY through him. This is the underlining mesesage of the WHOLE Bible, incidentially.

All right, in Matthew alone we have:
Follow the commandments 5:19, 19:16-21
Love your enemies 5:44
Give alms secretly, not for public display 6:4
Pray secretly, not for public display 6:6
Forgive others and you will be forgiven 6:14-15, 18:35
Fast secretly, not for public display 6:18
Do the Father's will 7:21-22
Blaspheming against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but not against
the Holy Spirit 12:32
We are rewarded according to our works 16:27
Receiving children in His name 18:5
Taking care of those in need 25:34-40

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

What do you think of that?

I don't think we're saved by works. Or by our faith, because we all have had times we doubt. I believe we're saved and enter God's presence purely out of the goodness, grace, and mercy of God. I do believe that cultivating a personal relationship with God yields good fruit, as Jesus taught.

Apparently Jesus saw passed the hypocrites who faked their walk with God by pointing out he was "breaking the law," when infact, he was obeying the 2 most important laws:

1. Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and body.

2. Love mankind as you love yourself.

Later,

Knowledge

I believe that's what Abogado and I were saying as well.

[BluejayWay]

There is a lot of variety in Christianity, and to me it is pointless for some of us to point to others and say they are not "real" Christians.

Indeed. I come from a tradition whose people were severely persecuted for trying to live their vision of a Christlike life, and if there is a lesson to be learned from that experience, it's to respect the beliefs of those whom you may not agree with, and to try to find common ground, both in our humanity and our spirituality.
These good ancestors of mine did not in turn retaliate against the Christians who caused their suffering, but resolved to show by their suffering that Christ did indeed dwell within them. They forgave their self-defined enemies.
One story: An Anabaptist was being pursued by the authorities across a frozen lake, when he became aware that his closest pursuer had fallen through the ice. Instead of continuing his flight, he turned back, and pulled his pursuer from the frozen water--saving that person's life, but assuring his capture and eventual death.
I find more truth in that account than I do in any amount of preaching about sin, salvation, and damnation.

[CanuckRasta]

Knowledge, that original post looks familiar...lol.

One Love
CanuckRasta
Lij Marques Benjamin
LIJETHIO Representative for Canada

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I believe that's what Abogado and I were saying as well.

I concur. The "Law" is the Law of Love, not that of the Old Testament. In Romans, Chapter 2, Paul gives a discourse on those who don't "know" the law but still follow it. To wit:

Originally Posted by Romans 2

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

17Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth– 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: “God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

Ghandi is an excellent example of a person who abides by the law as written on his heart without mouthing the words or confessing a faith simply in a doctrine or idea. But you don't have to look that far. Nor do you need to look for somebody famous. The world is full of people who earnestly desire to serve others in compassion, respect, forgiveness and tolerance - even in places where the culture does not express the central Truth of Christianity using the symbols of Chrisitianity but rather in their own folk inflection of the elmentary idea.

And it is not their works of goodwill that save them the consequences of sin. But those works bear witnesses to their service in the law of love, for which (in Christian terms) the reward is the goodwill of God: "for at whatever point you judge another you are condemning yourself". To think and act and speak otherwise is to "show contempt for the riches of God's kindness, tolerance and patience."

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

I concur. The "Law" is the Law of Love, not that of the Old Testament. In Romans, Chapter 2, Paul gives a discourse on those who don't "know" the law but still follow it. To wit:




Ghandi is an excellent example of a person who abides by the law as written on his heart without mouthing the words or confessing a faith simply in a doctrine or idea. But you don't have to look that far. Nor do you need to look for somebody famous. The world is full of people who earnestly desire to serve others in compassion, respect, forgiveness and tolerance - even in places where the culture does not express the central Truth of Christianity using the symbols of Chrisitianity but rather in their own folk inflection of the elmentary idea.

And it is not their works of goodwill that save them the consequences of sin. But those works bear witnesses to their service in the law of love, for which (in Christian terms) the reward is the goodwill of God: "for at whatever point you judge another you are condemning yourself". To think and act and speak otherwise is to "show contempt for the riches of God's kindness, tolerance and patience."

Dear AdD,

Thank you for pointing this out--I concur that the Law of Love is that which supercedes and directs the intentions of the other written laws. However, if I remember correctly way back in the morality and evolution thread when I was advocating the Law of Love you suggested that even this is not a universal law or truth. Did I misunderstand you?

peace
lunamoth

must run but hope to return to the thread later.

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Dear AdD,

Thank you for pointing this out--I concur that the Law of Love is that which supercedes and directs the intentions of the other written laws. However, if I remember correctly way back in the morality and evolution thread when I was advocating the Law of Love you suggested that even this is not a universal law or truth. Did I misunderstand you?

peace
lunamoth

must run but hope to return to the thread later.

Perhaps there was a misunderstanding. I think it arises out of the different contexts for the discussion. Let me see if I can explain, though this will be difficult:

The law of love, rightly understood, is not technically a "law" at all. Once you "know" it, you are not compelled to do certain acts and refrain from others as you would with a law or rule. It contains no element of obligation. Indeed, for lack of a better word, it is "obeyed" only out of a sense of personal choice and aesthics rather than any notion of duty. That's what I was getting at in the "Evolution" thread. Take a look at those posts where I juxtaposed excerpts from Paul next to excerpts from Nietzsche.

This is a very difficult concept to express in writing. I hope this helps clarify things.

[Abogado del Diablo]

lunamoth:

Here is the main post I was thinking about in my post above: http://www.comparative-religion.com/...alis#post14205

Also, there are earlier posts that include similar ideas from the writings of Paul on the nature of the law and morality.

[Abogado del Diablo]

lunamoth:

I found a post I wrote dealing with morality and the law of love in the "Morality in Evolution" thread that expresses this idea much better than I did in this thread:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/...&postcount=216

[path_of_one]

BluejayWay and AdD, thank you. Your posts brought tears to my eyes, because I truly believe that it is love that is the central "law" of following Jesus, and we find that expression of love in people of all faiths.

I always try to remember the lesson of the cross... that even as Jesus was being horribly persecuted without reason, he asked God to forgive his persecutors because "they know not what they do." He did not yell at them that they were wrong, or try to convince them to change, or fight. He just loved them until the end. I try to remember that.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

lunamoth:

I found a post I wrote dealing with morality and the law of love in the "Morality in Evolution" thread that expresses this idea much better than I did in this thread:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/...&postcount=216

Dear AdD, Yes, that does express it well. To me the law is like a framework that takes the form and shape of the Real Thing while we learn. Love is a state of being, it transcends obedience driven by fear or desire. But, ha! I often still rely on the framework because I fall short of being able to be perfect love.

To me God embodies and is the source of this Perfect Love in which we are participants. Some think of It as the Ground of Being which to me implies an interior Something More and others think of It as God which implies an exterior Something More but God must be somehow both (so I like the Ocean metaphor). But, God in His Love and Mercy, knowing we are material and need material things, came to us in Jesus so that we could personally know His Love, see it, touch it, taste it, live it.

an imperfect being with imperfect thoughts, but not orphaned,
lunamoth

[juantoo3]

Regards, Knowlege.

CR is a place for dialogue. It is well you have your opinions, and it is well you have your path. What is not well is the implication all too frequent in your posts that you have exclusive knowledge of how God and Jesus operate, and that anyone who disagrees with your opinion is somehow wrong.

For example:

Originally Posted by Knowledge

This by the way, isnt my words, but the Bible's.
(Perhaps, but the implication is that those who disagree with your personal interpretation are amiss -jt3)

Honestly, there is ONLY ONE interpretation of the Bible -- God's interpreatation. If we let the scriptures interprete itself, we will be OK.
(Do you honestly think that others here do not allow the scriptures to speak to them? -jt3)

Because, while he was the most tolerant man ever, he remained intolerant towards religion and other ways. Jesus knowing that he IS THE ONLY way to God, said it because he desiers to save men.
(Perhaps, but do you not find it ironic then that a religion is based on Jesus, if Jesus is intolerant towards religion?-jt3)

We're all born sinners because of the sin DNA in us.
(I must have missed this in the genome sequence, -jt3)

The fact is, unless they repent and put their trust in Jesus (Born again), they remain unsaved, and thus end up being sincerly wrong!
(Your opinion is not the same as fact, -jt3)

We Christians dont try to save ourselves by good deeds, but instead, we repent, and put our trust in Jesus, the one that paid our fine. Knowing and excepting this truth, has made us redeemed children of God, who now have a relationship with God, and not a religion.
(Again, this is your opinion. This subject has been discussed numerous times throughout this board, and not ALL Christians agree with your conclusions, even "born again" Christians, -jt3)

here's what I propose. Take Jesus on his word. Repent (STOP sinning), ask him into your life, and read the Bible.
(Proselytising is not acceptable in this community. Do you really think for even a moment that other Christians here have not already done these very things? -jt3)

God's words tell me so.
(Again, your opinion, or interpretation, of God's word unless you have some exclusive connection to the Almighty, which I seriously doubt. -jt3)

those that never come to Jesus never get redeemed.
(It might do you well to consider Romans chapter 2, beginning around verse ten. Then do an indepth study of the sixth day and eighth day of Creation in Genesis. Perhaps you might come away with a slightly different perspective, a much more tolerant one at that. -jt3)

Instead, people seek to find their own way, leaning on their own understanding,
(Including yourself? -jt3)

Try Jesus!
(Once again, proselytising, which is not acceptable here. -jt3)

Actually, God's Laws were first given to the Jew; for his own reason, but are ment for the whole world!
(Your opinion, and there are countless millions of God loving and truth seeking people who would disagree with you. -jt3)

Are you a good person? Have you ever lied, lusted, stole something, called God's name in vain, wanted what someone else wanted?
(Are you? Have you? -jt3)

Come to Jesus that you may know true righteousness!
(Unacceptable, -jt3)

The truth that ALL need a Savior is written on your heart. Look at yourself in the mirrior of God's Devine Law -- The Ten Commendments. Jugde yourself with the Law, and listen to your conscience.
(Considering the Ten Commandments do not even mention Jesus, and the FACT that the Gospels claim Jesus said there are only two commandments, means this is your opinion. -jt3)

I want to remind you that Jesus said time and again that Salavation is ONLY through him. This is the underlining mesesage of the WHOLE Bible, incidentially.
(Considering that Jesus makes His debut in the New Testament, are you implying that the Jews, let alone any of the rest of God's creation, are not "worthy" of salvation? If not, it sure seems that way. Rather judgemental, don't you think? -jt3)

I pulled this merely as an example. I saw numerous other comments in other posts that go along with these. I am hoping you will see why such things are not acceptable. This is a place for dialogue, for respectful interaction between faiths, and not limited solely to Christianity. It is not a place for being judgemental. It is not a place for proselytising. It is not a place for self-proclaimed prophets. It is not a place for finger-pointing and name-calling.

This is a place for sharing of ideas and opinions. You are certainly allowed to have and share yours. But implying that your way (and it is your way) is the only way, is absolutely not acceptable. I am considering that you are new here, and that you have "good" intentions. But I have to insist that you tone down the rhetoric. Consider this a friendly warning.

I once heard it said, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Abogado!

Welcome back! You have been missed!