What Is Truth?The Great Historical Question Answered.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste Quahom1,

Thanks for the diversion too much fun...can we explore, circumnambulate and elaborate?

I agree, not virtually, but agree. Everytime I have turned the other cheek, expressed love where it 'appeared' out of place, shown kindness to the 'enemy'.

The response was confusion, apology, retreat....

One thing I've discovered, that personal responsibility, the mirror concept...when your really allow them to come into play you discover you don't have to forgive when you don't blame, and you don't have to show kindness to enemies you don't create...or you find the enemies are within....and that heap of coals has eliminated them....cleansed by fire. Satan (negative thought energy) get ye behind me....

LOL sure

Sometimes the enemy is not trying to be, but just got emotionally out of control. First reaction when a child strikes another child is shock, then immediately goes into self defense mode (the one who lashed out does this).

I've literally watched this in wonder...the struck child says, "Are you alright? I wish I could have caught you when you tripped...here, you must have been reaching for this truck...", and he gave it to the striker. Then the offending child no longer knows what to do, and doesn't want the toy he was originally after. He just sits there miserable, because he knows that is not what happened. Then to make matters worse, the struck child comes back, tugs the striker on the arm and says "Common, let's go paint pictures".

They go and paint together, but the offending child keeps watching his "victim" out of the corner of his eye, until eventually he realizes that the other holds no hard feelings.

The next day in class, the striker can't be taken away from the struck child, and they become friends.

Case two. Two teens in a wrestling match in Highschool. one is winning, and the other in frustration pulls in illegal move resulting in the other breaking a leg bone. The "victim" does not let on that his leg is broken, but pulls a Jacob/angel manuever (he simply holds on for the rest of the match). The frustrated one wins the match by one point, but the victory is hollow, because he knows the other's leg is broken. But the "victim" limps over and shakes his hand at the end and then limps to the opposing team's coach and shakes his hand (as is custom).

In the hospital later that night, the cheater appears at the room of the "victim". As they talk, the "victim" declares "next time I'll be ready for that 'grapevine' (which is a legal move, but not quite the one that was effected). Both know there will be no next time...the injury has ended the "victim's" wrestling carreer. After the frustrated one leaves, a medal is found in the trash in the hospital room.

But, the "victim's" father keeps the medal. As time rolls on the frustrated one starts appearing at the house, and the two wrestlers start hanging out together, then become the best of friends. In fact the "victim" goes to the other's wrestling matches and cheers him on.

The frustrated one changes gradually, while the "victim" is his best friend...and the father of the "victim" watches in wonder, and awe.

That is what I am talking about. And I still have the medal that was dropped in the garbage...

my thoughts

v/r

Q

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by wil

I don't reject your believing this...I just don't personally buy it.

To me God is... God is Love... God is Forgiveness...

Not God forgives or loves, but is love and is forgiveness.

Jesus said 70 times 7...to me not 490...but a number so large indicating whatever, you just forgive.

That love wouldn't punish folks for sin, but allow the sin to wear on them and punish themselves. It doesn't always happen immediately...maybe it will take a lifetime or ten, but eventually we will learn.

To say that God is only the Law, or only Love I think would both be a mistake. I believe God is both. Law and Love do not contradict each other. Both serve the purposes of Justice.

There is a Justice higher than Man and we will be judged by Him.

What we have to understand is that God wants justice, not revenge or retribution. Not everybody is punished. People tend to think that justice always involves punishment. I think that's the wrong way to look at it. Human justice systems involve punishment because they can't control the mind of the offender. Punishment in human justice systems is merely a deterrent.

God only punishes people because they deserve it. I think it would be wrong to say that God would never punish people or that he either spares no one or spares everyone. God isn't that simple. The reason why Christians won't be punished is because they dedicate themselves to God and put their lives in His hands.

Punishment isn't needed if a person is willing to change. People who commit themselves to Christ make God Master of their destiny. They belong to God. People are punished for not committing their lives to Christ because they choose to be masters of their own destiny, so God will judge you on how well you lived as a master of your own destiny. The outcome for a non-Christian may or may not be punishment. I believe there is a chance of some unbelievers being admitted into Christ's Kingdom.

People who make God their Master don't deserve to be punished because they now belong to their Creator and are no longer held responsible for their wrongdoing. They dedicate their lives for God's purposes, which is to live in love. No injustice can ever take place when people live by love, and this serves the cause of Justice.

It's not just the Law that satisfies the requirements of Justice, but also Love. When people live by Love, there is no injustice. Whoever loves has obeyed the whole Law.

Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love. 1 John 4:7

The only obligation you have is to love one another. Whoever does this has obeyed the Law . . . If you love someone, you will never do him wrong; to love, then, is to obey the whole Law. Romans 13:8-10

People who are masters of their own destiny get exactly what they deserve. Justice is about healing the pain caused by wrongdoing. People who are masters of their own destiny can't help the causes of Justice because, of course, they don't allow their lives to be controlled by God. People who are masters of their own destiny can't live by Love because love comes from God.

Originally Posted by wil

That forgiveness wouldn't send anyone to hell, it would allow them to create their own hell and learn from it.

I think this is the hell we were supposed to learn from. God didn't put us in this "hell" to begin with. He didn't make us to be judged and tested. It's because of what Adam did that we're here in the first place. That's why we're going to be judged.

[wil]

The reason why Christians won't be punished is because they dedicate themselves to God and put their lives in His hands.

Can you help me with your definition of the punishment that God meets out? And it appears you also have a different definition for Christian than most Christians have as they carte blanch are completely removed from any punishment.

I think this is the hell we were supposed to learn from. God didn't put us in this "hell" to begin with. He didn't make us to be judged and tested. It's because of what Adam did that we're here in the first place. That's why we're going to be judged.

I think this may be heaven or hell our choice. Either way I agree that we are here to learn...ie pick our choices. But more elaboration would help here as well. What Adam did 'is why we are here'? and 'God did not put us here'? I'm just trying to get an understanding of our accidental combination of DNA and x&y chromosones showing up being Adam's fault.

namaste,

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by wil

Can you help me with your definition of the punishment that God meets out? And it appears you also have a different definition for Christian than most Christians have as they carte blanch are completely removed from any punishment.

Isn't that the basic idea behind Christianity?

I was saying we are carte blanch removed from punishment because we are no longer masters of our own destiny. It's because we choose to be masters of our own destiny that we are held responsible for our sins and liable to punishment. We are absolved from punishment if God is our Master because God takes the responsibility away from us.

Originally Posted by wil

I think this may be heaven or hell our choice. Either way I agree that we are here to learn...ie pick our choices. But more elaboration would help here as well. What Adam did 'is why we are here'? and 'God did not put us here'? I'm just trying to get an understanding of our accidental combination of DNA and x&y chromosones showing up being Adam's fault.

namaste,

Sin is a hereditary disease but not genetic. In other words, sin isn't in our genes. Our sinful human nature is inherited spiritually, not physically. It's not something physiological or biological, but something spiritual. Sin doesn't happen in the physical body. It happens in our spiritual bodies. When a baby is born and when a man and woman procreate, it's not just an interaction between their flesh (physical bodies) but also between their souls (spiritual bodies). It's an interaction of flesh and soul. This is how sin is inherited.

This is why the other animals can't sin. They don't have a soul. Because they don't have a soul, they are neither good nor evil.

Yes, I believe Adam is the reason why we're here. God didn't put us here to being with. The reason why we're here is so that we can be masters of our own destiny (make up our own reality and purpose) or let God be our Master. It's not really God experimenting with us, but us experimenting with ourselves. It's our choice.

[Faithfulservant]

Sin is a hereditary disease but not genetic. In other words, sin isn't in our genes. Our sinful human nature is inherited spiritually, not physically. It's not something physiological or biological, but something spiritual. Sin doesn't happen in the physical body. It happens in our spiritual bodies. When a baby is born and when a man and woman procreate, it's not just an interaction between their flesh (physical bodies) but also between their souls (spiritual bodies). It's an interaction of flesh and soul. This is how sin is inherited.

Its interesting that you say this.. I would disagree and say that you have it backwards. I believe that sin IS in our genes... the result of sin is death. Heart disease.. Diabetes.. Cancer...Congenital defects etc...

Our souls however do not Die..

When we accept Christ we are new creations.. not our bodies.. those are doomed to die.. but the spirit lives on eternally.

We are taught to reject the things of the world.. the fleshly lusts and desires.. we are to live in the Spirit.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Its interesting that you say this.. I would disagree and say that you have it backwards. I believe that sin IS in our genes... the result of sin is death. Heart disease.. Diabetes.. Cancer...Congenital defects etc...

My idea of death in "the result of sin is death" is not a physical death, but a spiritual death. Death is the "incapacity" to do something. If you're physically dead, you're got no influence in the physical world (or plane of existence). If you're spiritually dead, however, it means you are purely evil. You are void of goodness and dead to God. There is nothing good in you. Spiritual death, therefore, would be the incapacity to do good.

Isn't that what it means to be "dead to sin," that you are no longer controlled by sin? When a person is "born again" his genes don't change. Yet people are still able to change their character and personality, from people with bad tempers to really nice people. It's all to do with one's attitude and way of thinking.

It's like this. You have an old friend that you knew for a long long time. Someone you really liked. Someone nice. He/she goes away to some far away place. You don't know when they're going to come back. A few years later you meet him/her again. You are happy to see him/her but something is different. He/she has changed. It's no longer the nice person you used to know. He/she is constantly swearing and thinks he/she is a big-shot. That person you knew is dead. That personality is gone. The old friend is gone forever.

It's not that it's happened to me, but it's a common story . . . Anyway . . .

Spiritual death and death to sin is a bit like that. Every time we change, a part of us, a part our personality, a part of our life has to die first. By doing this we become a different person. We're the same person but just different.

Our physical and spiritual bodies have their own diseases. We suffer from diabetes, cancer, infections but we also suffer from arrogance, selfishness, greed and hatred. If we allow these diseases to take over our bodies (physical and spiritual), eventually we will die. They are parasites eating away at us, flesh and soul. While we're still alive, we still have a chance to do something about it. When we're dead it's too late.

That's the way I see it. All the death, disease and decay in the world are not a direct result of sin, but a result of God not holding back the forces of nature.

[bhakthi]

Originally Posted by wil

Can you help me with your definition of the punishment that God meets out? And it appears you also have a different definition for Christian than most Christians have as they carte blanch are completely removed from any punishment. I think this may be heaven or hell our choice. Either way I agree that we are here to learn...ie pick our choices. But more elaboration would help here as well. What Adam did 'is why we are here'? and 'God did not put us here'? I'm just trying to get an understanding of our accidental combination of DNA and x&y chromosones showing up being Adam's fault.

namaste,

Bhakthi
Jesus came as a mediator between man and God.To reconcile the world to the creator so that man can make peace with God.This is what the Bible says=
" For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.8 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." John;3:16-20