What made god? - Page 3

17th Angel · 01-26-2007, 08:45 AM

OK now, that is just bugging the hell out of me...

"Why is there something, rather than nothing.."

17th Angel · 01-26-2007, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

OK now, that is just bugging the hell out of me...

"Why is there something, rather than nothing.."

Ignore previous post.. I have satisfied myself with an acceptable answer.

wil · 01-26-2007, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Ignore previous post.. I have satisfied myself with an acceptable answer.

But have we?

17th Angel · 01-26-2007, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

But have we?

Oh yes, we very much have..

pfw · 01-31-2007, 04:28 PM

As I understan it... I'm going home now, bye... Being serious my view is this; complexity comes from simplicity (this is constantly shown to us by evoultion, the big bang, computer programming... they all result in complex forms from simple beginings). God is something so simple the human mind is to complecated to understand so we've gone and dressed it up with a lot of cleaver symbols and metaphores, patted ourselves on the back and congratulated ourselves on how cleaver we are, gone to war and enslaved and persecuted whole nations for daring to think differnetly about god that we do. I believe god exists, I just think we'd all be better of if none of us did tho.

17th Angel · 01-31-2007, 04:46 PM

I liked that post. Basically saying, that it is far more simple than we imagine, because we imagine complicated situations, this must have an answer, so must this and this... And we dive deeper than we need to? Why? Because simple doesn't please us. I could go along with that..

But, you believe it would be better if we all didn't believe in god? Then, how would you be able to abide by his rules? Or do you think if people didn't believe in god, there wouldn't be wars and arguments and such? But would it eliminate crime?

And there I go making something simple, more than simple.

pfw · 01-31-2007, 05:15 PM

Actually that a good question, mainly cos I only partly explaind my self. Don't think it would stop war (just make us a little more honest as to why we're going to war...). The main reason why I think we'd be better off not knowing about or beliving in God is; with out the promise of an afterlife maybe we'd actually get on with this one a lot better- if we knew/believed we only had this one chance at life/existance its just possible we'd actually think a bit more before taking some rash action (on a global as well as individual level). Maybe I'm not expressing myself properly here...

Silas · 01-31-2007, 06:38 PM

Man is finite and cannot begin to fathom the thought of a real uncreated and all powerful and sovereign Creator God. It boogles the mind to think of something that is and always was. We cannot concieve such a thing. It hurts the mind to try and grasp such and idea. But, the obvious remains: We are not God - His thoughts arent our thoughts and our ways arent His ways. Thinking about the attributes of God should leave us in a prostrate state where we're left to only submit to His surpassing greatness and worship. But, because we like things our own way and will not submit, we ask questions like this - namely, "who made God?" in the hopes that we will find a sufficing enough answer whereby we can appease our conscience that testifies to us that we ought to submit to God.

pfw · 02-01-2007, 11:58 AM

And to answer you other question, 'how would I be able to abide by his rules'- assuming God exists etc, which set of his rules am I supposed to live by today? which one of the religions, all claiming the one and only truth and the only path back to God am I supposed to follow? He certaily seems to be quiet on the subject when I ask- so does that mean none of them or any one of them I take a fancy to or make my own up? (He doesn't seem to be answering that one either so I'm going with the latter- If that turns out to be wrong, and I get punished when I die for it, I'll be sending Him a stifly worded letter of complaint...)

17th Angel · 02-01-2007, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pfw

Actually that a good question, mainly cos I only partly explaind my self. Don't think it would stop war (just make us a little more honest as to why we're going to war...). The main reason why I think we'd be better off not knowing about or beliving in God is; with out the promise of an afterlife maybe we'd actually get on with this one a lot better- if we knew/believed we only had this one chance at life/existance its just possible we'd actually think a bit more before taking some rash action (on a global as well as individual level). Maybe I'm not expressing myself properly here...

Who beats the drum? Who lines up his toy soldiers and then sends them off to die? The leader of that particular country? He I would say is the one that decides... But he like every other man with that much power, is corrupt, blinded by greed and personal agendas.... This is not a man of god. He may say he is a man of god, when it counts.... But he is a man of himself. So god or not, he would still act on his own judgements and thoughts.

I find that interesting, you think if we believed, that we only had one life, one shot we would be more honest and more law abiding? So take me, for example, I believe after I die, I decompose, and that is my end, my demise, nothing else happens. I have gone, and never to return. But I am far from honest... I will lie.. given the opportunity to get away with something, then I will jump at it, if I know I can get away with it. I will cheat, lie, be selfish... All the "not to do" things. But I do this, because I believe that there is nothing more to this life, so I get mine. If I truly with all my conviction believed that one day I would be stood infront of the throne of the king of kings... and that he truly existed, maybe I would be more obediant? Maybe that is what the powers of the past wanted the people to be? All Latin bibles? Cannot read or write? Obey what I read from this book and you shall be saved.

-edit--

So you believe in god? But, you make up your own rules? Isn't god your leader and saviour? To disobey commands from a leader.... That's not good news is it? Please, do not think I am getting at you, but you are quite a unique christian.. I have never heard a christian say that he/she wished no one believed in god, or because he hasn't physically told you what to do, you will do what you wish to do... Even though you have your bible? And if you believe in god and the whole christian way, isn't the bible his guidelines? Which is exactly like me... I want physical evidence, I want his presence to appear to me.. But, that would be just to make me believe in him... Then I would abide by his book (his rules) But because he doesn't I don't believe at all he is there... So if we take it your way, you just believe he hasn't got time for you? Or can't be bothered to answer you? Why would that be? The only conclusion I can come to, if we say this god of love really existed, is because the questions you ask, may already be written down for you...

pfw · 02-01-2007, 12:58 PM

All of your last post contains good points and I don't take offence at what your saying at all- I like nothing more that a good argument (in the non agressive meaning of the word- an exchange of ideas, views, opinion etc). I would agree that those answers may already be written down- being Christian I'm biased towards the Bible, which even just taking the New Testement alone, is contradictary, evasive, open to multiple interpritation (I've read some interesting stuff theorising Jesus was more 'political activist' than religious leader- and some persuasive arguments go with it). Then there's the minor point that the oldest (known) Gospel is (I think) John and that was only just written within 'living memory' of Christ (at least as far as the oldest known copy/fragments would suggest), that adds a few problems all of its own... I see no problem with exploring or challenging my own beliefs, ideas etc and (I was being rather flippant when I said I was making my own rules up) I'm looking for answers that sit well outside the box of Christianity-using scripture to back up scripture is circular and can be used to 'prove' almost any thing you want within that context. I think describing myself as Christian might be part of the problem- I don't believe in the virgin birth, I believe if Jesus was crucified and was walking around 3 days later it's because he didn't die on the cross, I don't believe he was literal God's Son, and I have a real problem with this trinity idea... I believe the answers can be found without 'God appearing' or helping, it's just a case of finding the right question... (kind of like '42' in Hitchhikers Guide...)

17th Angel · 02-01-2007, 01:13 PM

So you have the answer? But not the question... Interesting... Yeah, I say that "please don't take offense" line as a thing to cover me... So many get upset and cwy when you talk of religion... So yeah...

Wow... So we basically throw out the bible (NT) but not the OT? What would worry me with this idea, if people have seen the OT as suiting and fitting and god's word... They have linked and binded it with the NT... Giving that their approval too.. And of course there are many links between the two. So to not be happy with NT, doesn't that challange the authenticity of the OT? Or do you believe, that they are not fit to say what is real and what isn't and that is your choice?

pfw · 02-01-2007, 02:00 PM

You ask interesting questions, I like that I'm being forced to think about this.No, I wouldn't say 'throw out the Bible' (OT or NT), it just annoys me that so few Christians are even aware that there are, as just one example, translation problems with the Christian version(s) of the Bible (I've posted a thread on this subject under Abrhamic Religions-). The Christian OT is translated from Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic to Greek to Latin to English and then most other language edititons are translated from the English- A Christian will claim this is still the unadulterated, pure word of God and ignore even the possiblity of there being any translation errors. The NT has similar, but admited, less pronounced problem (less languages and shorter time to get to English language version). I think I'm beginning to realise I'm not actualy a Christian- it's just a label I've become 'comfortable' with. Maybe I'm a seeker or questioner? I think I owe you a thanks for helping to nudge me towards that realisation, Thanks. I still think that the Bible has a lot to offer in a spiritual sense. In a couple of my previous posts I've mentioned evolution, the big bang... others may have seized on those and questioned my beliefe in God if I also believe them. That's not something you've done-may I ask why? (I'll answer 1 question before it comes- emphaticly NO, God should never be used to 'fill the gaps' in scientific knowledge- science should constantly seek to fill those gaps with science. Understanding this universe, nature, mechanics, physics etc is- in a way- an attempt to understand God in my opinion.)

17th Angel · 02-01-2007, 02:23 PM

I think that is my only purpose here... To hopefully make you think... And then it should, I imagine back up your faith and make you stronger. If you go unchallanged.... Are you sure you're right?

Yup, I believe I answered in that thread about the bibles.

It is interesting though isn't it, how there are so many differing version of the bible, and in the end indeed they maybe the word of god, but they are writen, logged, edited, "translated" all by humans... We make errors.. Frequentley. I think it is wise, that you recongisne it could be the word of god, but that there also could be errors in the text. Not only that, the bible itself states there are those who wish to turn you away from the correct religion, to confuse you, to trick, decieve and make you become lost... What better way? Have many version of the same book all pointing you in the opposite direction. Some say there are many "fake" religions so that you become confused, can there possibly, be fake bibles? If the bible was a tree... And you had to hide it? Place an abundant amount of trees around that tree, a forest... You would never find the right one easily..

Why did I not question your faith in god? Because who am I? Whatever you truly know or truly feel is up to you to know and feel... I can't feel for you. That free will thing....

I just wanted to suggest a few things to see if it helped you.

god used to fill gaps? I think that happens alot for many things... "he works in mysterious ways" Not only in science and such, also in religion I believe god is used to fill gaps... If you can understand what I mean by that...

Promethium · 02-01-2007, 05:07 PM

Sure we make errors in translation but it doesnt mean one error is equal to another. Besides if the Bible was perfect we wouldnt be able to comprehend it perfectly because were not perfect. Of course if we were perfect we wouldnt need to learn from the Bible either.