What the Bleep do

Paladin · 04-24-2005, 06:09 AM

the film What the Bleep do We Know has been showing in the US for nearly a year now, and has just been released in the UK. What impact has the film had on your ideas of spirituality and science? Does the film have merit, or is it merely a pedagogical artifice on quantum physics?

brucegdc · 04-24-2005, 12:45 PM

None. It's certainly not a well known movie - in fact, it's not even being "shown" as one usually thinks of movies being shown - it's being played in various bookstores and spiritual centers around the country, by the looks of it (I had to google to find it).

bgruagach · 04-25-2005, 03:56 PM

It's not a very good movie -- it's really just a promo piece for JZ Knight's "Ramtha".

The movie consists of unsubstantiated New Age claims. The main claim is "we create our own realities" which is nice but is ridiculous when taken to the extreme they stretch it. They try to justify their claims by peppering the movie with bits from interviews they did with bona fide scientists. The problem is the bits they used were taken out of context and misrepresented to imply the scientists were supporting ideas that they were not.

I believe most, if not all, of the scientists shown in the movie have made public statements disassociating themselves from the movie because they were misrepresented.

There is a pretty in-depth review of the film and JZ Knight's group at http://www.wweek.com/story.php?story=5860 There's more about JZ Knight at http://www.skepdic.com/channel.html

9Harmony · 04-25-2005, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paladin

the film What the Bleep do We Know has been showing in the US for nearly a year now, and has just been released in the UK. What impact has the film had on your ideas of spirituality and science? Does the film have merit, or is it merely a pedagogical artifice on quantum physics?

I personally enjoyed it. I thought it was a wonderful step towards finding common ground between science and religion. I definitely don't agree with everything the movie states, but in watching the commentary on the DVD, their basic reason for making it, was simply to get people to start asking questions, and undertaking a personal investigation for truth.

I found it fascinating and enlightening.

Have a great day!

Loving Greetings, Amy

lunamoth · 04-25-2005, 07:47 PM

I have not seen the movie but now maybe I'll rent it to see what it is all about. From reading these posts I'm not predisposed to liking it--the mixture of pseudoscience or misrepresented science to "prove" religious points is one of my pet peeves. But, I'll try to keep an open mind

.

peace,
lunamoth

DT Strain · 04-25-2005, 10:21 PM

I have only heard bits about it, but it sounds like it makes the common misrepresentation of Quantum Mechanics, suggesting that it supports the notion that we create reality by observing it, which is complete poppycock and not at all what QM says.

I've also heard that it is dishonest with how it presents out-of-context statements by scientists interviewed. But, as I say, I've only heard bits about the film second hand. So far, I'm not encouraged.

Paladin · 04-26-2005, 01:13 AM

Okay, fair enough, but how do you see the film in the light of the works of people like Fritjof Capra(The Tao of Physics) or mystics like Emmet Fox, Thomas Troward, Ernest Holmes? Can we affect what is commonly taken for reality in any way by our beliefs about it? Is there something to all the positive thinking philosophy and the old ideas about "As a man thinketh?"

bgruagach · 04-26-2005, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paladin

Okay, fair enough, but how do you see the film in the light of the works of people like Fritjof Capra(The Tao of Physics) or mystics like Emmet Fox, Thomas Troward, Ernest Holmes? Can we affect what is commonly taken for reality in any way by our beliefs about it? Is there something to all the positive thinking philosophy and the old ideas about "As a man thinketh?"

There is definitely something to the idea that our beliefs affect reality. The problem though is when people like JZ Knight and others like her make wild speculations where the idea is taken to the extreme.

On the one hand, having an optimistic outlook can result in having an overall greater level of satisfaction -- and having a pessimistic outlook can make you dissatisfied even with success. Belief really does affect reality (at least how we perceive it) in those examples.

On the other hand, people still die from diseases even though they aren't aware what the infections are called, or even there. People die from things all the time without knowing what hit them. Animals and plants die all the time without having any awareness that it was going to happen, or what was happening at all until it's too late. Being conscious of something is not a prerequisite for it to exist despite what some claim.

Children believe all manner of amazing things but I seriously doubt that just because they believe those things they come to be. Millions of children for generations have firmly believed in Santa Claus for instance. You'd think that all that belief-power would do something if the claim were really true that belief=reality.

Pathless · 04-26-2005, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bgruagach

The movie consists of unsubstantiated New Age claims. The main claim is "we create our own realities" which is nice but is ridiculous when taken to the extreme they stretch it.

Oooooh!! I wanna create my own reality! If I do, can I carry it around in my pocket?

On that note, let me go back to playing The Sims.

Paladin · 04-26-2005, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bgruagach

Children believe all manner of amazing things but I seriously doubt that just because they believe those things they come to be. Millions of children for generations have firmly believed in Santa Claus for instance. You'd think that all that belief-power would do something if the claim were really true that belief=reality.

You mean that... Santa isn't really... My parents just... Okay, I'm gonna need some time with this.

bgruagach · 04-26-2005, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paladin

You mean that... Santa isn't really... My parents just... Okay, I'm gonna need some time with this.

No, Santa is real. He just gets around in a really fast airplane (reindeer can't REALLY fly.) And he buys the toys at stores rather than making them in a workshop up north somewhere.

By the way, I read somewhere that in Japan they say Santa Claus lives on the moon.

9Harmony · 04-26-2005, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bgruagach

There is definitely something to the idea that our beliefs affect reality. The problem though is when people like JZ Knight and others like her make wild speculations where the idea is taken to the extreme.

On the one hand, having an optimistic outlook can result in having an overall greater level of satisfaction -- and having a pessimistic outlook can make you dissatisfied even with success. Belief really does affect reality (at least how we perceive it) in those examples.

On the other hand, people still die from diseases even though they aren't aware what the infections are called, or even there. People die from things all the time without knowing what hit them. Animals and plants die all the time without having any awareness that it was going to happen, or what was happening at all until it's too late. Being conscious of something is not a prerequisite for it to exist despite what some claim.

Children believe all manner of amazing things but I seriously doubt that just because they believe those things they come to be. Millions of children for generations have firmly believed in Santa Claus for instance. You'd think that all that belief-power would do something if the claim were really true that belief=reality.

I agree JZ was kinda scary. I didn't agree with much that she had to say.

One thing the movie did for me, was open a whole new realm of possibilities. I read the Baha'i Writings in a whole new light. Abdu'l-Baha says 'the reality of man is his thought', and i always read that as just a nice flowery statement, but now, it takes on a whole different level of meaning.

our thoughts followed by actions create our reality. thoughts without action are just thoughts, but when combined with action, we can and do create the reality we live in.

So I agree that just to believe something doesn't make it real, but if we believe something and then act accordingly, our actions can assist in manifesting our beliefs into reality (within the laws of nature).

does that make any sense?

Have a great day!

path_of_one · 04-26-2005, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paladin

the film What the Bleep do We Know has been showing in the US for nearly a year now, and has just been released in the UK. What impact has the film had on your ideas of spirituality and science? Does the film have merit, or is it merely a pedagogical artifice on quantum physics?

I liked some of the scientists' discussions. I pretty much ditched JZ's comments and the whole middle part with the wierd hormones dancing, and the rest was OK by itself.

I guess what gets me is the two extremes- the folks that think reality is completely independent of our thoughts, and the folks that think reality is completely dependent on our thoughts. What world are either of these people living in?! As a scientist and a mystic, it just always seemed obvious to me that reality is affected by our thoughts (whether through our actions, or our perceptions of reality, or- if you buy into it- what some people think of as magic) but reality exists on its own. There really are a bunch of things out there that are very very hard to change. Death is the prime example. Yes, there are accounts of people recovering from mortal illnesses miraculously. But, in the end, they still will die. You can "create" your reality all you want, and you will still grow old and die. Nature is creating reality too, and it seems to be a lot better at it than we are, judging by our limitations.

That said, I do think the film would encourage people to be more open-minded about affecting reality, and anybody who tried to affect their reality would (I'd guess) rapidly come to some conclusions about what can't be altered.

The danger is that by focusing so much on thought, it provides an illusion that action is unnecessary. I know people who think world hunger can be solved just by insisting that there is no bad in the world and that this problem will be resolved. No offense to those who think that way, but I'm putting my money on the people who are out there actually feeding people.