What/who is G-d? - Page 2

RubySera_Martin · 08-13-2006, 01:47 AM

Thanks, Flow. I know that not many people tell stories to make their point and I've thought I should adopt another method because some people take it that I'm flaunting myself, my knowledge, or whatever. Telling a story to make a point is just the way my family does things. I have not been able to figure out if this is a cultural thing or if it's unique to our family. I forget what all I've mentioned here. I grew up in a horse and buggy Mennonite community with its own distinct culture.

I don't think he considered it inappropriate; who would consider his own behaviour inappropriate??? I've seen him once before and he didn't talk like this. His method was okay until he pushed it beyond a certain point. My guess is if I had no history of serious abuse I would have known how to handle the case and to indicate my boundaries. I know it's late in life to start over but better late than never.

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On another forum such people were referred to as "annoying Christians".

If they were only annoying I could live with it. But when people judge my thoughts and feelings and rebuke me for having them--that violates my innermost being. As I think about it, it amazes me to find corners of this inner sanctuary that my mother did not invade but I do have them. I did have thoughts and feelings she did not know about.

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But I try to be a little more tolerant of the type because they are only stating their commitment to their beliefs, and are trying to "bring" you along with them.

I don't want to be "brought along." I am quite happy to discuss religious belief objectively--both my own and others--in a safe environment where no judging, belittling, or scorn or mockery of any form takes place. But to be made to feel obligated to accept their view of things or to give an account for refusing--that crosses illegitimate boundaries. I think that is what this man was doing, though it was so subtle I did not consciously pick up on it.

Flow, I really appreciate your support. One or two others contacted me via pm for the same purpose. This little corner is beginning to feel a little like a church of like-minded people. I like it.

RubySera_Martin · 08-13-2006, 03:02 AM

Back to the topic of this thread re who/what is God. I would really like to explain who or what is God for me. It's going to push my limits of vocabulary but I'll give it a try.

And yes, I'm going to use a story again. My sister (one of them) and I rented part of a farmhouse for many years. Since the owners did not live there we also had considerable land--corners that were too small for them to get into with farm machinery--and the use of some out-buildings. This included a small barn where we kept our horses for transportation. We turned some of the land into pasture. You can actually see some of it here http://groups.msn.com/TheHumanistTruth. Click on pictures.

I really, really wanted to understand God or Spirit. It was a most lovely sunshiny day in spring when everything is vibrant green and the sky is as blue as it gets. As I looked out from our front door to the green pasture it hit me that in the sunshine there is Spirit. Somehow, in the connection of green pasture, blue sky, and clear sunshine I knew there was spirit.

This does not do justice to what I felt or knew. But to this day this is the basis for my understanding of God and Spirit. It is something inside the sunlit green leaves on trees and blue sky above. It is also the moist fragrance the earth breathes out for me to breath in. (This just came to me as I tried to explain my feelings but it is scientifically accurate! Vegetation exhales oxygen for our consumption.)

Does God disappear at night or on foggy days or in the winter? No!!! God just takes a different form. There is coziness in the intimacy of a foggy day. All sound is muffled and everything you can see is close and intimate. There is majesty in the stark beauty of winter's frozen beauty. You just know God is in that beauty!

The blue-white of the shady side of a snowbank. The special quality of the slanting rays of the setting sun when days are short. The glittering of every twigs and branch--yea even of fences and powerlines--after an ice storm. And if all else fails, there is always the comfort and safety of home when outdoors is just too miserable to find God--"Under His wings my soul shall abide, safely abide forever"...a hymn I learned long ago...here it is.

How is this God for me? It soothes my soul when all else is hectic. I don't know how to explain it for people who don't have this experience but that is what it is for me.

wil · 08-14-2006, 04:23 PM

Namaste Ruby,

Give the Glory to G-d. But not the problems...the issues...the blame...

Hmmm....yes, that is what I do. Now how to explain it. If I am outside during the day the sun is shining and light is everywhere. Sort of like G-d. Now naturally I only get darkness when the earth turns and I am on the other side, or when clouds come in. Natural occurances, I can't blame the Sun for either of those, things happen (hurricanes, floods, natural disasters...I'm not blaming G-d for them, tis part of nature...but I will thank G-d for the warmth...hmmm)

So can I blot out the sun? Yes I can close the curtains, choose to go in a cave, create a home or office without windows....funny then I also create similar smaller suns to replace the light I blotted out...hmmmm.

So I see G-d as everywhere, and my access to G-d as complete. So that is what I give the Glory to G-d for....all connection to my world, 100% control over my life and my future. So when issues come up, I see them as my doing (blocking my connection, shutting my blinds) and should I choose to change my attitude or my situation... I need to decide to open my blinds...

peace and blessings,

As for a distaste for fundamentalism....everything has a place in our world, some folks are here to learn from. Our fundamentalists brothers vocally give the Glory to G-d and vocally speak their truth, and sincerely wish to help others in the best way they know how. I bless them for that. Do I have issues with communicating with them, YES, that is one of the reasons this corner was created...but who needs to work on that them?? No, tis my chore to find my level of peace that will allow me a way to have a great experience in their presence.

RubySera_Martin · 08-14-2006, 07:30 PM

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Originally Posted by wil

Do I have issues with communicating with [fundamentalists], YES, that is one of the reasons this corner was created...but who needs to work on that them?? No, tis my chore to find my level of peace that will allow me a way to have a great experience in their presence.

Wil, you have some great ideas here but as for practical application, we need to look more closely at the details of specific situations. For example, if you find it difficult dealing with them, think for a moment what it's like for victims of severe abuse at their hands.

I don't know what your experience has been but I grew up cooking with a wood stove. When you burn or scald a finger or hand, you will find that working in the general high level of heat above a wood stove, such as handling pots and pans, can be unbearable for the part of skin that got burned or scalded. The heat is quite bearable for the normal healthy skin but for the damaged skin it is another story.

I think the same can be applied for fundamentalism and psyches that have experienced severe abuse at the hands of fundamentalists and their theology. As flow says:

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I know that when one has been subjected to personal abuse of any kind, it sensitizes them to any assault on one's personhood, perhaps even when the episode may have not been intended to be abusive.

Wil, you told me that you cannot imagine what it would be like having to cut ties with family. Yet that is what I had to do in order to "open the blinds to the sun," to stop the abuse. I put up with it for over forty years not even knowing it was abuse. This is the first time I have been able to identify an invasive act as abuse and stand up to it before I got seriously hurt. (Just now I called in and made my next appointment with another doctor.) Thus I feel considerable distress when you tell me that I should find a way to have a great experience with fundamentalists.

I am by a lo-o-ong stretch not the only person who has suffered severe abuse at the hands of fundamentalists. I know of people whose lives have been threatened by fundamentalists just because they happened to be gay. One man was driven out of a Christian church at gun point by the pastor just because he was gay. He was at the church to plan the funeral of a friend. Thus, he had to deal with the loss of his friend PLUS the loss of the church, and all of this with the knowledge that the Church wanted him dead. Another pastor had told him he should kill himself.

I also know of people who for some imagined offense were kicked out of their fundamentalist churches without notice. Some of these people have to choose between divorcing their spouse and family (children/siblings/parents) and eating at a separate table because the church forbids the spouse and family to eat at the same table as the excommunicated person. If the spouse and family eat at the same table they will be excommunicated, too. I know of even more heart-rending cases than this.

I don't think it is wise to advise such victims of abuse to figure out how to have a great time with fundamentalists. Nor do I think this is what you had in mind. That is why I am drawing your attention to what your post actually means to me. And to others like me. There are counselors today who work almost exclusively with victims of religious abuse. That should give you some idea of the extent of this problem--it is not just one or two people.

Add to that the intellectual damage the religious right is inflicting on public school education of children. I'm talking about the states where limits are imposed on the teaching of evolution, and creationism is legislated to be taught. This puts consciencious teachers in an extremely difficult position, not to mention the faulty education these children receive.

On top of that there is this on-going war against terrorism. Again, it is the religious right that keeps fueling it. Religious fundamentalism of the scale we see in North America (if not globally) today is not something to be taken lightly. If, on the individual level, you are able to deal with it positively, fine. I just want you to be aware that there is more to it than dealing with individual relatives, neighbours, or community members.

flowperson · 08-14-2006, 07:58 PM

Ruby and wil:

The retired Dean of the School of Divinity of the University of Chicago, Martin Marty, wrote a multi-volume work on Fundamentalism a number of years ago. I did not take the time to read it but read several reviews of the work, and the consensus of the reviewers was that he was right on the money in his findings.

It just could be that we are all seeing the fallout of his work these days happening all around us all over the world. As I've said elsewhere, the truth is usually hidden from the people in world events, we only see the results, but the truth is there nonetheless.

flow....

wil · 08-14-2006, 07:59 PM

Namaste Ruby,

You are more than right, I only speak from my vantage point and my level of understanding and my experiences. I do not share the world you grew up in, I do not share the world of the middle east, nor the world of those in Africa dealing with poverty, AIDS, insufficeint water and food supplies... I have none of that exposure.

I do know the pain of the burn on the woodstove, and the issue with the heat as you describe so eloquently....but I don't know the feeling of someone telling me I have to continue a chore which exasperbates the issue.

I do know that your story is valued here, your experiences and education have produced a combination that is of extreme value to this world...the one you are in, and the one you left.

I cannot imagine parting with family, or being put in a situation where that choice was the best choice. However I do realize many are in that position.

I do not mean to imply that I am advising anyone. I am relaying my experiences, and my work. It is what I need to do is understand why the various circumstances that befall me, the variety of people that I encounter..what they mean to my soul growth, why I signed up for this course, and how best to use the education that I have gleaned.

I am not indicating that is or should be your mantra, it is my mantra in this incarnation.

As indicated by others I so appreciate your willingness to open our eyes to understanding there is more than meets the eye.

RubySera_Martin · 08-14-2006, 11:08 PM

Wil thanks for understanding. I was quite sure that was what you meant but somehow I knew I had to clear it up if I want to retain healthy relationships on here. And I want to.

Flow, Marty's work is on my list of readings. It has been for quite a few years but I'm getting closer to actually reading at least portions of it. Thanks for the background on him.

InLove · 08-15-2006, 01:59 PM

Hi and Peace to All Here

I spent the better part of yesterday afternoon reading through this entire thread. Would I be correct in saying that there is a touch of “Zen Christianity” here? I never have understood exactly what that term meant, but then I have never been very good at labels. It is something I would like to explore further at some point.

Speaking of me not being very good at labels, I’d just like to address some of Ruby’s comments, if I may.

Ruby, I can’t begin to tell you how sad your story makes me. I have a good friend who, like you, left a Mennonite community and was officially “shunned” by family and friends for many years. Out of respect for her, I won’t go into details, but what happened still hurts her deeply, although she has found a beautiful life outside of where she grew up.

Before I go on, let me first say that I am not here to “bash” the Mennonites. The order where my friend grew up was located for years here in Texas, not too far from me, and recently returned to Pennsylvania. I would stop by their bakery when I was on the road. I even purchased several of their books. I was always treated decently when I was there. But I personally know very little about how it is to grow up within their fold.

Anyway, it might surprise you to know that my friend became a Baptist! She has attended a Missionary Baptist church for years, where her husband has been the youth minister, music minister, a deacon, and is now ordained to perform the duties of a pastor when called upon to do so. They are happy, pleasant, and young-at-heart, even though both of them have been through so much that one might expect them to shake their fists at God and call it quits.

Now, of course, I am not suggesting that you should become a Baptist. What I am trying to get at, however, is this: I feel certain that they would describe themselves as “Fundamentalist Christians”. But you would never find them at a gay-bashing rally or out somewhere shouting ugly things at young women who were considering abortion. I don’t even think that they would approach you at work and ask you if you had “found Jesus”. (If you asked them, they would probably invite you to their home and church, though, and sit with you for as long as you wanted and talk about it.) Anyone is welcome to visit their congregation, even though I know there are certain belief requirements to join.

It is my opinion—make that my belief—that what the press and increasingly the general public refers to as “Fundamentalist Christian” is a misnomer, and one that causes a great deal of confusion. There is a noisy, dangerous bunch of political hoodlums out there who do inflict what you have described as “religious abuse” over and over again on others. This has absolutely nothing to do with the “fundamentals” of Christianity. I know I am safe in saying that there are many Muslims who feel the same way about terrorists and powermongers who call themselves “Islamic Fundamentalists”. They have happily stolen the title, and the real fundamentalist believers are now unfairly lumped in together with them in the minds of people around the world.

Well, someone has to say it! (Please know that I am not necessarily including those folks that someone has described as "annoying" Christians--many of these people are just true evangelists who may need a little work on their delivery

)

Okay, switching gears again (sort of)—I am also confused by the label of “fundamentalist” as it might apply to the Mennonites. I never would have thought of them that way.

So, perhaps my views are strange when it comes to labels—I welcome any comments. I hope I have not been offensive--I am only trying to help and to clarify some points. And I hope I am not straying too far from the original topic on the thread, but it appears to be the direction it has taken.

InPeace,
InLove

Abogado del Diablo · 08-15-2006, 02:55 PM

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Originally Posted by InLove

I spent the better part of yesterday afternoon reading through this entire thread. Would I be correct in saying that there is a touch of “Zen Christianity” here?

Some like to think of it that way. Earl has made mention of being a "Zen Christian" several times. Personally, I like to just think of my approach as just "Christianity," i.e. reflecting on the stories about Jesus and his teachings and going where that takes me.*

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Originally Posted by InLove

Now, of course, I am not suggesting that you should become a Baptist. What I am trying to get at, however, is this: I feel certain that they would describe themselves as “Fundamentalist Christians”. But you would never find them at a gay-bashing rally or out somewhere shouting ugly things at young women who were considering abortion. I don’t even think that they would approach you at work and ask you if you had “found Jesus”. (If you asked them, they would probably invite you to their home and church, though, and sit with you for as long as you wanted and talk about it.) Anyone is welcome to visit their congregation, even though I know there are certain belief requirements to join.

"Fundamentalism" can mean for you whatever you want it to mean (as is true with everyone else), though you might not receive what someone is telling you when they say something is "fundamentalism" unless you try to relate to how their use of its connects up to the story in which they use the word.

To say that someone is defining "fundamentalism" wrong is to not listen to what they mean when they use it. The first thing is to try to understand how the person(s) relate the word to their experience and whether you can relate it to something similar in your experience. If you have a similar experience (and you probably do, though not always), the meaning of the word will come through to you and you will have "heard" the message the word was carrying. Maybe you and the person using the word can agree on some other word for the experience, but before you can agree on a word, you have to try to work out whether you are having a shared experience. And someone else might come along and not like your agreed word because they associate that word with a very different experience than the one you shared in arriving at your word.

Isn't language cool?

*My apologies to anyone who doesn't like when I try to explain what I mean when I use a particular word.

Abogado del Diablo · 08-15-2006, 03:44 PM

One runs the risk of creating an hostile emotional response by accusing someone of being "wrong" when they subjectively relate their symbols and words to their own personal "real" experience. Sometimes this is hard to avoid, because a person might not include an explanation of the experiences that they associtate with a word or a metaphor. It's seems unlikely that such an explanation will be forthcoming if that person feels that their experiences (whether stated or not) are being negated by someone else (i.e. they feel as though they are "under attack" for their words or ideas).

Perhaps the better approach is to ask "what do you mean when you say [ ]?" This tells the person we are communicating with: (1) that the person's experiences are of interest to us (and thus, the person herself is of interest to us); and, (2) it signals an interest in continued dialogue rather than debate.*

*hat tip to Jamarz for adding a useful nuance of the word "debate" and its relationship to "dialogue" to my lexicon.

InLove · 08-15-2006, 03:49 PM

Hi, Peace--

(I would have been here sooner, but still having trouble with the "last post" feature!)

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