What/who is G-d?

[Abogado del Diablo]

Here's a story that affects the way I view what I consider to be "fundamentalists" for better and for worse.

As you may know, I used to think of myself as a "Bible-thumping" Evangelical, "Born-Again" Christian. I believed there was only one right way to express the answers to the great questions about the meaning of life, "who am I?" and "what should I do?" I went through a crisis of conscience because this way of approaching life suddenly began feeling inauthentic and empty to me. So I started investigating questions about where these "fundamental" ideas about Christianity came from and wasn't satisfied that anybody had the answers. So I walked away from "Christianity" of the fundametal sort entirely, though I would come back to a fresh and much more meaningful understanding (for me anyway) years later.

Though I was raised "loosely" Catholic, part of the process by which I came to see myself as an Evangelical fundamentalist is that my sisters (four of them) preceeded me in their "born-again" conversion experiences. They have all taken different paths from that now, but there's one person in the family who hasn't - my sister's husband Pete. Pete is sure I'm going to Hell, especially because I knew "the Truth" and let Satan take it away from me. How do I know this? Because he has specifically and repeatedly told me so.

So back to the story. Pete and my sister, and their two boys, came to stay with me and my wife and our kids about a year ago. Pete, as always, insisted on engaging me in a discussion about his ideas of "the Truth." I was a little more assertive during that conversation that I no longer believed in the literal truth of the stories from Chrisitianity and explained how I found this was much more natural for me and made me much happier than I was when I thought there was only one, literal answer. This was a private conversation between he and I.

On the last day of their visit, Pete invited both families (me, my sister, my wife and the four kids) to gather for a short prayer. The prayer started with a thanks to God for our time together and a request for a safe trip home for Pete and his family. The rest of it (about ten minutes) was Pete asking God to take the demonic lies out of me so that I could once again see the truth of the "Gospel of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ"TM This was in front of my wife, my five-year old daughter, my son and my sister.

Now . . . does that excuse the feelings of anger that well up in me in the face of someone claiming they know the only "truth"? No. But nevertheless, those feelings are there whether I want them or not. When I talk about "fundamentalism" and "creeds," part of what those words mean to me includes the feelings I had at the end of Pete's "prayer." And when those feelings arise, I can't help but think of the millions of people over the years who have been tortured and murdered, or watched a parent or child tortured or murdered, left homeless, and stripped of their dignity because someone thought they had the righteousness of being the one with "the Truth."

[InLove]

Hi Again--Peace,

Oh, man, Abogado! I might have walked away, as well. There is truly nothing that angers me more (and anger does not come easy to me) than when I see or hear accounts of what is, in my belief, the abuse of the name of Christ. And I know that it happens all the time. I am glad that you have been able to come to terms with the experience and travel on to a more peaceful Spirit.

I think that, in regard to certain aspects of the discussion here, I am going to go ahead and jump on over to the new thread. Some of what has been said on this one will necessarily follow me there, most likely. But for the sake of the original idea expressed here, this is probably best.

Before I do that, however, I just wanted to clear up one little, tiny tidbit that is bothering me a little. Dondi--what a significant attempt toward the cause of understanding you have made on your post regarding Baptists. I would just like to add that, from what I have experienced (and it is plenty) in more than one community of Baptists, not all of them define "Hell" as a "literal, eternal, burning lake of fire". But those who do not see it that way do describe it as "eternal separation from God". I know this may sound like nit-picking, but it is not my intent, at least here, to turn it into a major topic. I just felt that it was a point that might merit clarification. Anyway, I do thank you for your heartfelt and meaningful words.

Well, I had better jump over as planned, at least in certain matters.

InPeace,
InLove

[JosephM]

Hi Abagado,

Same story here... different characters.
Was raised Catholic also. Left religion and came to non-denominational born again experience at age 32. Received the baptism of the Holy Ghost and became a Bible thumping eveangilist. Had same change here over the years and then published a book detailing more progressive views and then received same treatment from my close friend who thinks I am off on a 'bunny trail' and could not have possibly ever known Christ in the first place. He is of course praying for my salvation so I don't end up in Hell.

Love in Christ,
JM

[wil]

I think these explanations of folks travels in spirit speak volumes.

While you were in any one thought...how strong was that thought?

Were you praying for others to see the light?

Were you gladly worshipping, singing praises, and quoting chapter and verse?

Did you participate in witnessing, prosyletizing, mission work, recruiting others?

It is so glorious that we find our path....and when we choose a new path to realize those that we meet at the crossroads are on a path that we once traveled, and it served us well...or it may be a path that we ourselves or one of our friends or family may be traveling soon...and rejoice in that.

I've been prayed for, to save my sinful soul, by many a caring loving person, and it is the intention, not the intention of the person...but the intention of source...that is what matters to me. So I no longer care.

Like a erectile dysfunction ad on television, or the curse words or bad choices in a PG-13 movie....it becomes an entry point for me to discuss this with my kids. When I invite someone in who is headed door to door and we have a discussion, and those folks say one thing or another....when they leave my kids and I have a discussion....the questions fly faster than I can keep up. These distractions are an advantage....as if I were to bring the subject up, it wouldn't be of interest, it wouldn't be poigniant, it wouldn't have the punch of reality.

We will soon be having an interfaith retreat for our middle school kids, with representatives from Judaism, Islam, Hindu, Buddhism, and Native American faiths.... I can't wait to go through the experience with them.

Tis an awful shame I'm attempting to raise kids to be tolerant, open to others beliefs, and without the threat of hell or being able to blame the devil....I need all the prayers I can get!

Thank you G-d!

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by JosephM

Hi Abagado,

Same story here... different characters.
Was raised Catholic also. Left religion and came to non-denominational born again experience at age 32. Received the baptism of the Holy Ghost and became a Bible thumping eveangilist. Had same change here over the years and then published a book detailing more progressive views and then received same treatment from my close friend who thinks I am off on a 'bunny trail' and could not have possibly ever known Christ in the first place. He is of course praying for my salvation so I don't end up in Hell.

Love in Christ,
JM

In the case of "Pete" it's particularly complex because he is about 12 years older than I am and looked up to him as a source of wisdom as a newly converted 16-year old Evangelical Christian. I once thought of him as my "older brother in the Lord." Of course, I know why he thinks what he thinks, but it's still an unpleasant experience.

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by wil

While you were in any one thought...how strong was that thought?

Not sure I understand what you are asking here. Can you elaborate please?

Originally Posted by wil

Were you praying for others to see the light?

Most definitely.

Originally Posted by wil

Were you gladly worshipping, singing praises, and quoting chapter and verse?

Yes. Though the "charismatic" experience never quite felt natural to me.

Originally Posted by wil

Did you participate in witnessing, prosyletizing, mission work, recruiting others?

Yes. I helped the youth pastor organize a monthly outreach of our congregation's youth group to the local homeless shelter. Three or four times a year I was asked to speak in front of congregations in various places in the Pacific Northwest as part of "lay witness missions," telling my conversion story - I guess presumably to inspire others in their faith, though I was 18 years old and didn't have much to tell.

Originally Posted by wil

I've been prayed for, to save my sinful soul, by many a caring loving person, and it is the intention, not the intention of the person...but the intention of source...that is what matters to me. So I no longer care.

When there's an element of meanness to it . . . I care.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by InLove

Before I do that, however, I just wanted to clear up one little, tiny tidbit that is bothering me a little. Dondi--what a significant attempt toward the cause of understanding you have made on your post regarding Baptists. I would just like to add that, from what I have experienced (and it is plenty) in more than one community of Baptists, not all of them define "Hell" as a "literal, eternal, burning lake of fire". But those who do not see it that way do describe it as "eternal separation from God". I know this may sound like nit-picking, but it is not my intent, at least here, to turn it into a major topic. I just felt that it was a point that might merit clarification. Anyway, I do thank you for your heartfelt and meaningful words.

I acknowledge the fact that not all Baptists are "hell, fire, and brimestone". But in most of the fundamental churches I've been familiar with, that is the thinking.

Personally, due to changes in my thinking over the last several years, if I share my faith, I emphasize the separation from the love of God, rather than eternal hell, as a consequence of sin. Fear tactics like hell might compel someone to pray the sinner's prayer, but they do so primarily for assurance of heaven, not to establish a meaningful relationship with God. I wonder how many have said the prayer only to fall away because that aspect wasn't stressed?

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by InLove

I would just like to add that, from what I have experienced (and it is plenty) in more than one community of Baptists, not all of them define "Hell" as a "literal, eternal, burning lake of fire". But those who do not see it that way do describe it as "eternal separation from God". I know this may sound like nit-picking, but it is not my intent, at least here, to turn it into a major topic. I just felt that it was a point that might merit clarification.

Haven't quite caught up with reading this thread and will respond more later. Just want to thank you for this clarification. It's important for me to know that there is a difference.

[leastone]

Beloved in Christ,

I shall not attempt to answer the title of this thread, "What/Who is God?" I am moved to respond, however, after having just read the entire discussion. I'm just not sure what will will come out, but please bear with me.

We are taught a fundamental spiritual verity that what the heart is full of, that it will express, and from that abundance, there will be an overflow. It can hardly be stopped. This is how we are, and whether it be a post on a forum, or a testimony in a clinic, or in an interaction with proselytizing visitors, we can only speak what is on our minds, and depending on the emotional state, we may do so passionately, and even heighten one's feelings about it, as one gets carried away with enthusiasm with the issue. We are all subject and limited to self-expression.

We have to learn to discern God not only in the beautiful expressions of Nature, or the deep wisdoms of the teachings of Truth, or profound spiritual experiences in worship, or meditation, but in the everyday circumstances, people and events of our life. How could we possible exclude God from these? How can we exclude his Good and Truth for us in every situation?

His loving-kindness and divine providence provide whatever is necessary, whenever it is necessary, to ultimately change us from glory to glory, in an ever-increasing conformity to the likeness of the Holy One.

A baby has impatience from birth, and does not take long to make that impatience known, and, what is more, learn to skillfully employ it for his/her own needs satisfaction, even as a tool for manipulation. Nobody has to teach him/her how to be impatient "properly." What the child has to learn is patience.

Patience can only be learned, exercised, cultivated in impatient circumstances, with impatient people to tax whatever little patience one has already acquired. It cannot be learned otherwise, for it will only wax strong as it overcomes impatience, and has victory.

So, life (God) will present us with experiences with the right mix that is tailor-made to suit our growth needs; opportunities to exercise self-control, loving-kindness, patience, generosity, hospitality, forgiveness, peacefulness, or whatever we still fall short in. And these experiences will keep on presenting themselves 'til we get it right!

The offense taken at someone's perceived abuse when they are simply and sincerely expressing their faithful commitment to the same Lord we serve, to proclaim His Name, and give an account for the hope that is within them, may or may not be a fair evaluation of what they are doing. But along with the very same experience, in the presence of the very same Lord, is the opportunity to evaluate why one reacts the way one does. Especially when He said, "Blessed is he who is not offended in Me."

Pride is a terrible thing---it gets upset or angered so easily. It's so sensitive! And what it is especially good at is defining or constructing a God that suits its best interests; one that is created according to its own image and liking; one that it can control, and decide on when it can be considered present or not in any given situation.

Submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ remains a valuable exercise in a life called to consider others higher than oneself; to show kindness and generosity to those who despite-fully use you; and to show love and concern for one's enemies. The true Christian needs God's grace every moment, in every encounter, in every situation.

Respectfully abiding in Him,

Learner.

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by taijasi

My approach to Liberal Christianity is not different than my approach to esotericism, or to esoteric Christianity. We each and every one of us feel and can acknowledge a separation from, or a lack of God ... in our lives. But we can also, each and every one of us, AFFIRM the Presence of God within us - once we get past the conditioning, as well as the limitations & barriers which life in the world just naturally places upon us.

I didn't see this earlier. Just found the quote in someone else's post. Andrew, I have an extremely serious problem when one person declares what "each and every one of us" do or don't do. My problem is that you don't know ME well enough to make that kind of statement about me.

Whole churches tend to be built upon and maintained by one person's idea that "each and every one of us" always does whatever. Then I am disciplined for "straying" because the church believes no one can be true to God in the way I am living my life. I am accused of sin when in fact I am being true to what I was born to be, my calling, my spirituality, my relationship with God.

I think it is more honest and more accurate to state what I experience, or that many/most people are this or that way. By specifying that it is "each and every one of us" I think people overstep their rights. The fact of the matter is that most times when people make these sweeping statements about "each and every one of us" they are wrong. You are probably more correct than many I've heard. I still think I have a right to ask to be excluded from such statements.

I guess that's nit-picking but then, where does truth end and falsehood begin???

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by leastone

Pride is a terrible thing---it gets upset or angered so easily.

Indeed. Pride makes it very easy to become a whitewashed sepulchre, doesn't it?

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

Originally Posted by leastone
Pride is a terrible thing---it gets upset or angered so easily.

Indeed. Pride makes it very easy to become a whitewashed sepulchre, doesn't it?

AdD, thank you from the bottom of my heart for your support. Leastone is new and probably does not yet know the rules of this place.

Leastone, this room was created less than a week ago. It's express purpose is to provide a safe place for those of us who do not subscribe to fundamentalist orthdox Christian beliefs to talk about our questions, ideas, and issues. Your post 39, no matter how well intentioned, is the very thing from which we need protection and safety.

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by Dondi

This almost sounds Native American. Have you ever explored their traditions?

A little bit. I think it also fits into what is sometimes referred to as mysticism. I've also looked at paganism perhaps more deeply than Native religion. It can be very complicated for a white person getting accepted into a Native community. Too much bad history. If my only options in life were a choice between fundamentalist Christianity and Native religion, I would check it out more seriously. However, those are not my only options. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

[lunamoth]

For everyone's reference, here is the opening of the Code of Conduct, which can be found here.

NOTE: CR is intended to be a useful reference resource for people looking to find out more about specific religions.

In that regard, CR employs a “walled garden” approach to the individual faith boards.

This means that the individual faith boards are for persons of that faith to discuss faith issues in the context of their faith, and invite interested questions and discussions from persons outside of that faith about it.

CR does not support direct attacks on any faith, and suitable critical evaluations about any faith needs to be made on a more neutral board, such as the Comparative Studies, or Politics and Society, if it involves critical discussion of political events.

I see no breach of the CoC at this time, but I would encourage everyone to proceed gently.

lunamoth
moderator, Belief and Spirituality

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

I didn't see this earlier. Just found the quote in someone else's post. Andrew, I have an extremely serious problem when one person declares what "each and every one of us" do or don't do. My problem is that you don't know ME well enough to make that kind of statement about me.

Whole churches tend to be built upon and maintained by one person's idea that "each and every one of us" always does whatever. Then I am disciplined for "straying" because the church believes no one can be true to God in the way I am living my life. I am accused of sin when in fact I am being true to what I was born to be, my calling, my spirituality, my relationship with God.

I think it is more honest and more accurate to state what I experience, or that many/most people are this or that way. By specifying that it is "each and every one of us" I think people overstep their rights. The fact of the matter is that most times when people make these sweeping statements about "each and every one of us" they are wrong. You are probably more correct than many I've heard. I still think I have a right to ask to be excluded from such statements.

I guess that's nit-picking but then, where does truth end and falsehood begin???

Apologies. Didn't mean to speak for you. Just figured it was safe to say that none of us, as yet, is perfect. But I also figured that as Christians, we agreed that it was worth striving for the perfection that is found in and through Christ (see Ephesians 4:13). I guess that's what I get for figurin ...

andrew