What would say to Jesus?

[bob x]

Originally Posted by Marsh

But find me the passage where Jesus says that he wants his disciples to assimilate the world through colonization, or that he wants them to hang Blacks-- Christian Blacks for that matter-- in the postbellum south.

Well, there is the passage "I am not come to bring peace, but a sword; I will divide the members of a family, three against two and two against three". I think he was aware that his message would cause a lot of misunderstanding, strife, and violence. Was it worth it?

[Marsh]

Originally Posted by bob x

Well, there is the passage "I am not come to bring peace, but a sword; I will divide the members of a family, three against two and two against three". I think he was aware that his message would cause a lot of misunderstanding, strife, and violence. Was it worth it?

Yes, I know this passage well. Let me ask you a question: has all of the strife and violence that you are thinking about happened because of these words, or would it have happened anyways? After all, there was bloodshed in the world long before Jesus. Do you really think that the people responsible for tragedies such as colonial massacres were motivated by this verse? Do you think any of them had actually read the Bible, or if they did that they understood it, or believed in it?

Jesus preached a very simple message: Repent, and you will be forgiven. And 99% of everything we read about him in the Gospels follows directly from this message, from his opening sermon to his forgiveness of the man crucified beside him. And yet some people have indeed used his words as a rationale for destruction. But consider for a moment, hypothetically, that Jesus had never existed and the Gospels were never written: Don't you think that these people-- criminals as they were-- would have found something else to twist in order to rationalize their crimes?

The Nazis began as a group not unlike the KKK: white protestants who were racist against Jews, Catholics, and (we can deduce) all other religions except protestant ones. By the end, Hitler was developing a scheme to create a new religion of state-worship, not unlike the emperor-worship of the Roman Empire. Was Christianity really a part of the Nazi agenda? From state-worship to violence to intolerance and hatred, all of the evidence points to the negative.

The Crusades, in fact, were no different because they were never commanded. The Catholic church, for all intents and purposes, declared war upon the Muslims of the middle-east, making them enemies of the church. Jesus told us to love our enemies to the point that if they take our shirt, we should oblige them. To analogize the situation, the Muslims had 'taken' (in the eyes of the church; in reality it belongs to God) land that belonged to Christians, but the correct response should have been anything except war.

To conclude, violence based on Biblical teachings has happened in spite of, not because of, Biblical teachers.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Marsh!

By the end, Hitler was developing a scheme to create a new religion of state-worship, not unlike the emperor-worship of the Roman Empire.

Sorry to "but" in, but I understood Hitler to have signed a Concordat with the Vatican, establishing Catholism as the officially recognised religion of Nazi Germany. My two cents, otherwise a great post!

[I, Brian]

Historically speaking, religion has often been used as a poliical tool - and often, against the actual precepts of that religion.

[Marsh]

Yes, Hitler had signed an agreement with the Vatican. He also signed a non-aggression pact with the Soviet Union a couple of years before he invaded it.

I found this at the following website: http://www.sovereignfellowship.com/tos.php?sec=52. Like all secondary historical sources, its content of truth is questionable. Nevertheless...

The Religion of Socialism

By Christopher Holloman Hansen

Winston Churchill said, "There are two places only where socialism will work; in heaven where it is not needed, and in hell where they already have it."

It is not particularly surprising that Winston Churchill used these religious eternal destinations when speaking about the political philosophy of socialism. Several of Churchill's contemporaries also understood, but unlike Churchill, advocated this Religion of Socialism. It was and is well understood that socialism is the very antithesis of Christianity.

Hitler was an aggressive proponent and even assigned his henchman Heinrich Himmler to found the Religion of Socialism.

"And Heinrich Himmler, who had started to draw up the new National Socialist religion, followed the command of his Füehrer."

"The Füehrer was satisfied and he held out a prospect of a reward which would tie him to the accomplishment of the task: it would be him and his SS which, once the Füehrer had passed away, should take care of the most important relic of his religion, the foundation myth itself - in the shape of the mortal remains of Hitler himself." (From Holocaust History Project Chapter 48: The Guardian of Paradise)

But this socialist religion was not just the dream of Hitler but merely an altered version of the "god-builders," a group of failed Marxists that advocated the founding of a new "socialist" religion with the aim of reconciling Marxism with religion. This group included Maxim Gorky, A. V. Lunacharsky, V. Bazarov. (see: MATERIALISM AND EMPIRIO-CRITICISM [Part I] from FOREIGN LANGUAGES PRESS PEKING 1972)

The establishment of this Socialist Religion was not just to offer an alternative to Christianity but is intended as its complete replacement.

Martin Bormann stated in a secret decree of the Party Chancellery signed by him and distributed to all Gauleiters on June 7, 1941:

"Our National Socialist ideology is far loftier than the concepts of Christianity, which in their essential points have been taken over from Jewry. A differentiation between the various Christian confessions is not to be made here the Evangelical Church is just as inimical to us as the Catholic Church. All influences, which might impair or damage the leadership of the people exercised by the Füehrer with the help of the NSDAP must be eliminated. More and more the people must be separated from the churches and their organs the pastors. Just as the deleterious influences of astrologers, seers and other fakers are eliminated and suppressed by the State, so must the possibility of church influence also be totally removed. Not until this has happened, does the state leadership have influence on the individual citizens. Not until then are the people and Reich secure in their existence for all time." (Nazi Conspiracy & Aggression, Volume I)

The book continued to add to the evidence: Regierungsrat Roth, in a lecture September 22, 1941, to a group of Security Police, in the Reich Main Security Office (RSHA) concluded his address on Security Police measures for combating church politics and sects with the following remarks:

"The immediate aim: the church must not regain one inch of the ground it has lost. The ultimate aim: Destruction of the Confessional Churches to be brought about by the collection of all material obtained through the intelligence service (Nachrihtendienst) activities which will at a given time be produced as evidence for the charge of treasonable activities during the German fight for existence."

[juantoo3]

Very well, I was not aware of this.

[iKwak]

"I won't let you go. NEVER!"