What would you do?

[Dondi]

Back to the OP. A thought occurred to me. If this man really wanted forgiveness, it would have been little good to have just one person come to his deathbed. He would have hoped that every single person he wronged or the families of everyone he wrong would have had to lined-up outside his hospital room to forgive him.

[path_of_one]

I think it is odd the man asked for a random Jewish person to forgive him as well. That would be like a serial murderer asking a random victim's family member, a victim of some other murderer, to forgive him for murder. You can only ask forgiveness from God and the people you harm. I guess I can see how one can theoretically ask forgiveness from a social group that you harm, but how does that really work? Some members would forgive, some wouldn't, but the truth is you need to say you have repented to those who you directly affect, in my opinion.

I probably would have forgiven him, but I haven't been put in this situation, and I can't really know how I'd react without (God forbid) experiencing something similar. I do know that I have once been very, very hurt by someone, both physically and mentally, and I managed to forgive him. Though he never asked for forgiveness, and to the best of my knowledge, he never received justice by society for what he did. I actually do not derive any comfort from thinking he will receive justice from God, either. I find nothing about punishment for him comforting at all. It actually breaks my heart- I don't want him to suffer. I want him to be transformed. I want him to be freed from his anger and pain and the evil with which he is possessed. I want him to be saved.

Ultimately, I chose to forgive because it freed me. It was a selfish, or at least self-centered, choice. I don't know where he is, if he even has remorse; he does not know I forgave him. But I had to let go of my pain, my anger, and my fear (as best I could- the fear is the hardest thing to get rid of, in my experience). Forgiveness and trusting God to heal me was my only hope, and I thank God it worked.

I have no idea if I would be able to forgive if I had lost a loved one due to murder, or if it was a loved one that had suffered rather than me. I think in some ways, it is easier to forgive transgressions against myself than against those I love and wish to protect.

I could not ever sit with him again. I would still be afraid. But I am no longer angry, and I rarely feel any pain anymore. I screamed and cried, and eventually just got it out of my system, I guess. God was there to take it from me once I was ready to give it to Him. I only pray that His salvation one day transforms all who hurt others, in both large scale and small, that they are convicted by their own hearts and that they come to love, both for the good of humanity and for the good of their own souls.

May one day we all walk in peace...

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Only when it is too late, and the damage is done, and some poor sap serving as a scapegoat is hung from a tree, do some of the mob realize what has come over them and what they have done.

Strange. Why was I thinking of Jesus when I read this?


I keep thinking about the verse in John 20:23:

"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

That is a scary thought to think that someone won't forgive you. I wonder if one carries the guilt until those whom you've harmed forgive you. Maybe this is the "worm that never dies" and the "fire that is never quenched". It is the heart-wrenching, never-ending sense of guilt and shame one must bear for thier transgression against someone who won't forgive them. I mean, if we end up in heaven, what are we to do with those who make it to heaven who have done us wrong. Would we have the grace to forgive them then? If we didn't forgive them during our time on earth, what will make us forgive them when we get to heaven?

[I, Brian]

I'm curious - if it's not departing from the original question, but who can actually forgive the transgressions against another?

I remember a few years back there was a story in the UK of someone breaking into a church and raping one of the female parishioners while the priest was bound and present (or something along those lines).

The priest publically forgave the man - but I remember thinking even at the time, that wasn't it for the woman to forgive - or not - the crimes against herself?

In other words, back to the original story - was the man really in a position to forgive in the first place, if he had not suffered directly at the actions of the individual SS man?

Just exploring the discussion.

And genuinely sorry to hear about your own situation, juantoo3 - my best hope that you can find a way to find peace in this adversity.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I I do know that I have once been very, very hurt by someone, both physically and mentally, and I managed to forgive him. Though he never asked for forgiveness, and to the best of my knowledge, he never received justice by society for what he did. I actually do not derive any comfort from thinking he will receive justice from God, either. I find nothing about punishment for him comforting at all. It actually breaks my heart- I don't want him to suffer. I want him to be transformed. I want him to be freed from his anger and pain and the evil with which he is possessed. I want him to be saved.

Ultimately, I chose to forgive because it freed me. It was a selfish, or at least self-centered, choice. I don't know where he is, if he even has remorse; he does not know I forgave him. But I had to let go of my pain, my anger, and my fear (as best I could- the fear is the hardest thing to get rid of, in my experience). Forgiveness and trusting God to heal me was my only hope, and I thank God it worked.

path_of_one,

I don't think it is selfish or self-centered to choose to forgive. I understand that you forgave him because you didn't want to live with the bitterness, and I know God would not want you to live in that pain. But by releasing Him of this awful thing through forgiveness, you've enabling yourself to love others with a purer love than you've known before. It is a step in looking toward people in pity instead hatred. You've managed to turn the pain into something else. Truly, you have learned to love your enemy, which would be near impossible to do without God's love. Forgiveness releases God's love into your life so that you CAN love and have pity on your enemies.

I'm not saying that it was God's will for your to be hurt like this just so that you can learn to love your enemy, for the choice to harm lay on the one who hurt you. But I do believe that God will turn situations like tis into something positive, if we allow Him, which I believe you have.

May the peace of God rule your heart, my friend.

Love & Peace,

Dondi

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Dondi!

You have written a wonderful response to path of one, and it is well to console and comfort.

I do have one little issue though,

It is a step in looking toward people in pity

Perhaps this is better taken to another thread if it develops, would not want to derail this one. But I tend to agree with Ayn Rand in this matter:

I do not want anybody's pity.

I see no connection between love and pity. On occasion, I might appreciate a little help to pick myself up off of the ground, but I do not need and do not want anybody to carry me. Pity is a crutch. Pity is condescending. Pity implies "there, there, you poor little devil who is so much lesser than I..." Pity enables self-destructive behaviors and thoughts. Pity is bondage.

Pity is not to be confused with mercy. Mercy and forgiveness are entirely different than pity.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards again, Dondi!

Strange. Why was I thinking of Jesus when I read this?

I noticed that after I posted. It kinda makes me wonder just where the minds of the people in the crowd were that called for Jesus to be crucified.

I keep thinking about the verse in John 20:23:

"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

Just as it is written that for those who are truly in the will of the Father, "what is bound on earth is bound in heaven, what is loosed on earth is loosed in heaven." My paraphrase, I forget chapter and verse.

That is a scary thought to think that someone won't forgive you. I wonder if one carries the guilt until those whom you've harmed forgive you. Maybe this is the "worm that never dies" and the "fire that is never quenched". It is the heart-wrenching, never-ending sense of guilt and shame one must bear for thier transgression against someone who won't forgive them.

Perhaps I am rationalizing, but I do think it is a matter of degree. If someone will not forgive you because you took their popsicle when you were three and didn't know any better, I don't think that is going to be a problem. If you steal their wife...then you may have a problem.

I mean, if we end up in heaven, what are we to do with those who make it to heaven who have done us wrong. Would we have the grace to forgive them then? If we didn't forgive them during our time on earth, what will make us forgive them when we get to heaven?

Contrition. A repentant heart. Hypothetically, if this person were to arrive in heaven after I do, and I were to understand that they sincerely regretted their action, and did what they could during the rest of their life to make some form of retribution, I would be swayed to forgive them. Not knowing, I must presume the worst. If they have murdered once, and got away with it, they are just as likely emboldened to commit murder again.

[Quahom1]

I think, the truth is that we don't know what we would do, until we are put in the position to make a choice.

Forgiveness is like training. We are taught to do so, and then drilled on it until we have the routine down pat.

But then we leave the class room and enter life. Time goes on and so do our days, until one day, a situation arises and we must act, or choose.

They say that in a panic situation we revert to our most basic training, but I'm inclined to believe that we only have that training as a tool, and we must choose whether to use that training or not. (and is heavily influenced by whether we have the heart/courage/will, for it or not for it).

Forgiveness, is not an emotion IMO, but rather a decision. When forgiveness is on the table between two people, and it is given (and received), both parties benefit, but one party benefits more than the other.

He who forgives releases the other from a soul debt, and releases himself from something even worse...being a slave to the one that wronged him.

However, as the Bible states, to everything there is a season...forgiveness also has its season.

my thoughts

v/r

Q

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Brian!

I'm curious - if it's not departing from the original question, but who can actually forgive the transgressions against another?

I remember a few years back there was a story in the UK of someone breaking into a church and raping one of the female parishioners while the priest was bound and present (or something along those lines).

The priest publically forgave the man - but I remember thinking even at the time, that wasn't it for the woman to forgive - or not - the crimes against herself?

In my understanding, it is G-d who forgives *overall*. As Christians, we are to promote the spirit of forgiveness. It is up to the individual that has been wronged to forgive.

How can we realistically seek forgiveness for ourselves, if we are unwilling to forgive others? With the caveats that intent and degree are to be considered. Accidents happen. Slights that are unintended rightly should be quickly forgiven. When there is intent, forgiveness is a bit more difficult. Degree, meaning depth and breadth of the slight, also bears. It *should* be easy to forgive the stolen popsicle, especially if the perp knew no better. It is less easy to forgive the stolen bicycle, but in the spirit of forgiveness, a bicycle is "just" a thing, and can be replaced. A stolen wife...there you have intent and degree. A stolen wife is much less easy to forgive, but possible...

A human life taken, deliberately, with torture and intent, and ended much too soon, leaving behind grieving loved ones...for some like me that is way beyond intent and degree, and not worth casually forgiving, not without some evidence of contrition and repentence. Justice is not to be forgotten, for without justice, mercy has no meaning.

In other words, back to the original story - was the man really in a position to forgive in the first place, if he had not suffered directly at the actions of the individual SS man?

There is something to be said for systemic hate, like mass murder with government sanction. The wrong was so pervasive, in some way it could be said that all under Nazi rule were guilty, and all those persecuted were in some way wronged. I can only guess what may have gone through the mind of the Nazi soldier, what repentence, what remorse, what contrition. Allowing the benefit of the doubt, perhaps he did realize on his deathbed the mistakes he made. Perhaps he realized them for some time, but was only free to express those thoughts with the knowledge he could not be "legally" held responsible for them. Who knows, but G-d?

I think when we get to heaven we are going to be suprized. There will be people there we never thought would make it, and there will be people missing we were sure would make it.

And genuinely sorry to hear about your own situation, juantoo3 - my best hope that you can find a way to find peace in this adversity.

Thanks. It is a burden I choose to carry out of the love for my step-father. I suppose I could lay it down and forgive this person anonymously, but I feel it would not be sincere, that it would in some way tarnish my love and memory of my step-dad. That is just my view, I have no scripture to back me up, or to chastise me for that matter.

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Back to the OP. A thought occurred to me. If this man really wanted forgiveness, it would have been little good to have just one person come to his deathbed. He would have hoped that every single person he wronged or the families of everyone he wrong would have had to lined-up outside his hospital room to forgive him.

Yeah, this occurred to me after I made my original reply. Perhaps his position as SS officer would have made this impossible but if he genuinely felt sorry he should have made a public apology to the whole camp or, as you say, have everyone line up outside.

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Ultimately, I chose to forgive because it freed me.

This made me remember a cultural practice I read about, I don't recall if it was fact or fiction but that is, arguably, unimportant.

If somebody killed somebody else then the victim's family could either adopt the killer, or a family representative could go out on a river and die with them.

Excuse the haziness of my memory. I'm really hoping someone has heard of this and is able to shed a bit more light on the issue.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, Dondi!

You have written a wonderful response to path of one, and it is well to console and comfort.

I do have one little issue though,



Perhaps this is better taken to another thread if it develops, would not want to derail this one. But I tend to agree with Ayn Rand in this matter:

I do not want anybody's pity.

I see no connection between love and pity. On occasion, I might appreciate a little help to pick myself up off of the ground, but I do not need and do not want anybody to carry me. Pity is a crutch. Pity is condescending. Pity implies "there, there, you poor little devil who is so much lesser than I..." Pity enables self-destructive behaviors and thoughts. Pity is bondage.

Pity is not to be confused with mercy. Mercy and forgiveness are entirely different than pity.

Actually, I wasn't meaning pity on the victim, but the one who committed the crime.

Perhaps pity is not the correct word. I don't mean pity in the sense of feeling sorry for them, but in the sense that you see in the criminal more than just a murderer or rapist, or whatever. Like path_of_one feels for the one who did her wrong. In wanting the person to change. That is not being condescending. That's wanting someone to be better than they are. Like the mother I mentioned who developed a relationship with the murderer of her son.

Forgive me for not being more clear. Is there a better word to describe this?

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Dondi!

I hope I did not come across adversarial. That was not my intent.

Perhaps pity is not the correct word. I don't mean pity in the sense of feeling sorry for them, but in the sense that you see in the criminal more than just a murderer or rapist, or whatever. Like path_of_one feels for the one who did her wrong. In wanting the person to change. That is not being condescending. That's wanting someone to be better than they are. Like the mother I mentioned who developed a relationship with the murderer of her son.

Forgive me for not being more clear. Is there a better word to describe this?

Mercy, and forgiveness, are the two concepts I think best suit what you describe. Perhaps I am mistaken, but the word "pity" evokes such well-intended but misguided actions and reactions from people. I think a lot of people confuse pity with love, mercy and forgiveness. Perhaps best for another thread at another time.

Mercy and forgiveness *do* look beyond the deed, to try to find something better in a person, and love compels us to want to bring what is better out of them. Mercy is having justice on your side, and choosing to forego the penalty. Usually there should be some mitigating factor, such as repentence and contrition from the perp.

Actually, I wasn't meaning pity on the victim, but the one who committed the crime.

As was I. Perhaps this is a bit difficult to see, as in this thread I seem the victim. I too have offended others, although not nearly in the same degree, and seldom in the same level of intent. So in some sense I identify with the sinners, more so than the saints.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards again, Dondi!


I noticed that after I posted. It kinda makes me wonder just where the minds of the people in the crowd were that called for Jesus to be crucified.

Yeah, just the week prior they were worshipping Him with Palm Leaves

Just as it is written that for those who are truly in the will of the Father, "what is bound on earth is bound in heaven, what is loosed on earth is loosed in heaven." My paraphrase, I forget chapter and verse.

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." - Matthew 16:18-19

Some would regard these verses in the aspect of passing down authority, rather than forgiveness of sins.

But I am assuming that your meaning is that we can bind someone to their sin (hold them accountable) or release them from their sin.

Perhaps I am rationalizing, but I do think it is a matter of degree. If someone will not forgive you because you took their popsicle when you were three and didn't know any better, I don't think that is going to be a problem. If you steal their wife...then you may have a problem.

Agreed.

Contrition. A repentant heart. Hypothetically, if this person were to arrive in heaven after I do, and I were to understand that they sincerely regretted their action, and did what they could during the rest of their life to make some form of retribution, I would be swayed to forgive them. Not knowing, I must presume the worst. If they have murdered once, and got away with it, they are just as likely emboldened to commit murder again.

That must be one of the hardest parts in dealing with this, juantoo3. Not knowing if the guy gives a damn in this life. Or if he has changed in any way. I hope and pray that you would at least find out what ever happened to him.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Dondi!

Busy thread today!

Originally Posted by Dondi

Yeah, just the week prior they were worshipping Him with Palm Leaves

Well, not having been there, I am not prepared to say it was the exact same people who did both.

It does speak volumes towards human nature though. In that much perhaps Nietzsche is correct; people are (or can be) cattle. Easily led any which way the wind blows.

I am assuming that your meaning is that we can bind someone to their sin (hold them accountable) or release them from their sin.

Yeah, something like that. How many of us can truthfully and genuinely say we are in the full will of G-d at any time, let alone every time? I think G-d supercedes our desires, whether or not we know or acknowledge this fact. Unanswered prayer comes to mind. It is when we are in the full will of G-d that the concept of binding and loosing is in proper working order. (MY! How strangely pagan that seems coming out of me...almost sounds like what I understand as "magick") Yet, if we are not in the full will of G-d, how can we expect otherwise? Satan? Therein "lies" a rather dubious expectation, and the rewards for same are just not worth it (to me anyway).

That must be one of the hardest parts in dealing with this, juantoo3. Not knowing if the guy gives a damn in this life. Or if he has changed in any way. I hope and pray that you would at least find out what ever happened to him.

I appreciate your concern. I trust it will work out in the end, whether in this life or in the next. In the meantime, I must focus primarily on myself. I cannot waste my life worrying about this person. I have my own crosses to bear, and my own forgiveness to seek, and my own life to live in the best manner I know how.