What would you do if pt 2

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

nudge nudge wink wink, feel like you are writing letters do you?

...unfortunately...epitaths, seems more like it...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Im glad I cant better myself.. I'll leave that all up to the Lord. Too much pressure and way too much room for err..

Hmmm...

[Silas]

Originally Posted by wil

You are not following Silas,

My point is not who you were, but who you have stated you would be. I am amazed that you would go right back to your old lifestyle. If that is the case it seems that lifestyle still has a hold on you and the current one is temporary....

I have no desire to go back, I only said what I said because that is what I would do by default. If there was no God and my life was a cosmic accident, why in the world would I want to do anything of worth? Why would you want to?

[wil]

Originally Posted by Silas

I have no desire to go back, I only said what I said because that is what I would do by default. If there was no God and my life was a cosmic accident, why in the world would I want to do anything of worth? Why would you want to?

For the same reasons I did before I became a Christian. Because I am a human, and have a concern for humanity, because I matured from my youthful anarchist state of mind. Many folks save themselves from the material world before they find Christ.

Just like some alcoholics find a solution before they hit rock bottom. There are always other ways.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by wil

For the same reasons I did before I became a Christian. Because I am a human, and have a concern for humanity, because I matured from my youthful anarchist state of mind. Many folks save themselves from the material world before they find Christ.

Just like some alcoholics find a solution before they hit rock bottom. There are always other ways.

But why? If you were the result from a cosmic accident and came from no where and are headed no where, why act as if anything you do will matter?

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Silas

But why? If you were the result from a cosmic accident and came from no where and are headed no where, why act as if anything you do will matter?

Because...Being good is its own reward. It doesn't matter if it matters or not.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Prober

Because...Being good is its own reward. It doesn't matter if it matters or not.

OK, this is getting intersting. I have two questions for you:

1. Why would a person that believes that he or she is the product of an accident, who's life is vain, and who is going no where ultimately, choose to live oppossite to that belief and do good?

2. You mentioned that being good has its own reward. Like what?


Thanks bro!!

[wil]

Originally Posted by Silas

But why? If you were the result from a cosmic accident and came from no where and are headed no where, why act as if anything you do will matter?

Namaste Silas,

Darn good question! I'm hoping you can provide an answer. You posit that humans are sinful and wicked by nature, or have repeatedly for about 600 posts...

And without G-d permitting them (you also say that we don't choose G-d but G-d chooses us) And that without Jesus saving them...we are destined to be true to that evil nature.

So why, since you've repeatedly told me I am not a Christian, and that I do not love Jesus, and that I will reap G-d's wrath...

Why, why do I donate my time to benefit others, why do I spend time teaching youth, why do I donate to charity, why do I try to raise moral children? Now I ain't no saint, but why do I do these things...the fallen human that I am?

Why do I spend time here, and in real life on interfaith and learning, why not spend it chasing women in bars? Why does this inherently evil being do this Silas?

[Tariki]

I must admit to admiration of the sheer honesty of Silas. I must admit myself that though virtue is indeed its own reward - or at least should be - often I still seek something just a little more tangible .

We all seem to have various perspectives on this. (Just as a quick aside, for anyone who has not yet read it, Dostoyevsky's "Crime and Punishment" is a great novel that explores the themes that this thread opens up. The young student Raskolnikov, influenced by certain nihilistic arguments - if there is no God, then all is permitted - justifies to himself the killing of a "worthless, stupid and grasping" old women for her money in order to further his own career, which he considered would be of greater worth to the world than anything the old woman could have done. The novel plays out the result of the deed and its consequences. Well worth a read.)

Reflecting upon the original questions set by Silas, I did feel that to consider the reality that "this was it", and to know it for fact, could actually provide an opportunity for a true deepening of our experience and understanding. Rightly or wrongly I have for a long time considered the idea of "eternity" as endless time beyond the grave, as a mere extension of egoic existence - though imagined "perfect" - to be more a description of hell than of anything else. Ulitimately, the present has no extension but intensity, eternity is a deeper dimension of time, more timelessness than endless time. To seek for genuine reconciliation both within ourselves and between ourselves within such a context and understanding, beats striving to earn a place in some imagined heaven hands down! Well, at least it seems so to me. How does it go? "Ear hath not heard, the eye hath not seen, nor the heart of man conceived what the Lord has prepared for them that love Him" (sorry, my NT is little rusty) That being so, why spend too much time reflecting upon it?

Hopefully, though being on the Christian section, I might be able to quote a few words attributed to the Buddha on this theme, which seem to me to have relevance (irrespective of creed........ if we allow our minds just a little leeway, and seek the "yes" rather than the impulse to "refute")

With his heart thus unhostile and unafflicted by ill will, thus undefiled and unified, a noble disciple here and now aquires these four comforts. He thinks: "If there is another world and there is fruit and ripening of actions well done and ill done, then it is possible that on the dissolution of the body, after death, I might be reborn in a heavenly world." This is the first comfort aquired. "But if there is no other world and there is no fruit and ripening of actions well done and ill done, then here and now in this life I shall be free of hostility, affliction and anxiety, and I shall live happily." This is the second comfort aquired. "If evil befalls one who does evil, then since I have no evil thought of anyone, how shall evil deeds bring suffering to me, doing no evil?" This is the third comfort aquired. "But if no evil befalls one who does evil, then I know myself to be pure in this life on both these counts." This is the fourth comfort aquired. (Anguttara-nikaya 3:65)

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Silas

1. Why would a person that believes that he or she is the product of an accident, who's life is vain, and who is going no where ultimately, choose to live oppossite to that belief and do good?

Well, without a G-d I don't know what would make that person want to take another look at their life, but being good just works better than being bad. Taking just what you need works better than taking more than you need. Being friendly works better than being unfriendly, etc.

2. You mentioned that being good has its own reward. Like what?

Thanks bro!!

There's a peacefulness that comes from being good. Like you're teflon-coated and nothing can hurt you and it wouldn't matter if it did anyway.

I know that the term "good" is a subjective thing. I'm not trying to get mixed up in semantics. I'm just saying...

The reward of a good life is a good life!

Then if you put G-d in the mix, that's an extra bonus.

my 2 cents...

Love,
Mark

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Tariki

With his heart thus unhostile and unafflicted by ill will, thus undefiled and unified, a noble disciple here and now aquires these four comforts. He thinks: "If there is another world and there is fruit and ripening of actions well done and ill done, then it is possible that on the dissolution of the body, after death, I might be reborn in a heavenly world." This is the first comfort aquired. "But if there is no other world and there is no fruit and ripening of actions well done and ill done, then here and now in this life I shall be free of hostility, affliction and anxiety, and I shall live happily." This is the second comfort aquired. "If evil befalls one who does evil, then since I have no evil thought of anyone, how shall evil deeds bring suffering to me, doing no evil?" This is the third comfort aquired. "But if no evil befalls one who does evil, then I know myself to be pure in this life on both these counts." This is the fourth comfort aquired. (Anguttara-nikaya 3:65)

Very well said Tariki (and The Buddha)!

I'm printing this out and keeping it in a conspicuous place.

This is what I was trying to say but for which really couldn't find words.

Many thanks!
Mark

[wil]

Originally Posted by Tariki

Hopefully, though being on the Christian section, I might be able to quote a few words attributed to the Buddha on this theme, which seem to me to have relevance (irrespective of creed........ if we allow our minds just a little leeway, and seek the "yes" rather than the impulse to "refute")

Namaste Tariki,

I ditto Prober, and in regards to your question since the OP wonders if there weren't a G-d, a Buddhist response seems entirely appropriate. As I understand Buddhis thought (which seems to be verified in your quote) is you don't worry whether their is or isn't a G-d...not that it is a trivial issue, but that it is one steeped in conjecture and faith and there are plenty of things to contemplate regarding this incarnation...

The four comforts are wonderful, perfect conclusions once one decides to sit and think about it. Could be accomplished previous to bumping against the material world but often after....

[Prober]

Also works with the "kingdom of Heaven is within you" thing.

[Paladin]

Tariki,

As always you come in with the most appropriate works! "Crime and Punishment" is an excellent reference for this thread, and the words of Buddha confirm what Wil alluded to earlier. It is only a particular v-meme that believes the essential nature of man is evil and that there is even a transcendent figure that sets things right.
In Silas' model God is "out there" somewhere directing us by an objective law or principle to which we ultimately must surrender and integrate into our being. All well and good of course, but it dismisses out of hand the notion that the Buddha and others pointed out that "being good" to put it simply aligns us with our original nature and therefore the nature of suchness. When this alignment takes place there is great merit, peace, joy and happiness.
I think the problem is delving too far into what is known as a "what if" fallacy of logic in order to propagate a particular world view. Ultimately the motivation for that behavior could only be self aggrandizement.

Peace
Mark

[Tariki]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste Tariki,

As I understand Buddhis thought (which seems to be verified in your quote) is you don't worry whether their is or isn't a G-d...not that it is a trivial issue, but that it is one steeped in conjecture and faith and there are plenty of things to contemplate regarding this incarnation...

Wil,

Yes, there is a very "pragmatic" side to the Dharma, deriving from various suttas. The Buddha is often recorded as speaking of that which he "declares" and that which he does not "declare", and the importance of understanding why. He once likened his own teaching to just a handful of leaves.............and of that which he knew, yet did not teach, to the leaves of the entire forest.

Our own speculations can be important, yet are often irrelevant - perhaps no more so than when deep suffering strikes.

As far as Buddhist/Christian dialogue is concerned there is much ground to be covered! Speaking for myself, it would revolve around the meaning of the Person (as opposed to the "ego-self")..........but let's not deflect this thread................