What's happened to Islam? - Page 12

Muslimwoman · 10-17-2007, 02:08 AM

It lasts 3 days, of course when it starts depends on the phases of the moon.

bob x · 10-17-2007, 02:44 AM

Thanks.

flowperson · 10-26-2007, 11:36 PM

Here is something to think about. If you were the King of Saudi Arabia would you do this thing in this
way?

This institutiion will be effectively physically and spiritually separated from the rest of the nation in which it will reside and operate. Do you believe that to be necessary for it to operate effectively in the development of science and technology ?

Finally, since the King is placing his authority on the line, do you see this as a backhanded challenge to the authority of Wahabi Islamic Imams in the functioning of Saudi governance ? And, might this all foment some sort of primal division in the national governance of Saudi Arabia ?

Lots of questions there folks...and now for some answers ?

flow....

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/26/wo...6saudi.html?hp

Muslimwoman · 10-27-2007, 03:28 AM

Hi Flow

Very interesting piece, thank you. My opinion is that the Saudi's have little choice but to move forward and open up a bit. It has been easy to live in the closed society with billions in oil revenues coming in every day but now the oil is due to run out they have to make a decision, to open up and find new ways to fund their society or stay closed and fall back even further.

The King has shown himself to be a forward thinker on a number of projects but he will need to tread carefully, change will not come quickly to one of the most closed societies in the world. I really hope this project takes off, it may ring some changes for Islam as well as Saudi. Muslims need to concentrate on science and regaining their wealth of knowledge, without giving themselves over to western lifestyles.

I think it is a really positive move, inshallah it will succeed and find middle ground.

Salaam

flowperson · 10-27-2007, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Muslims need to concentrate on science and regaining their wealth of knowledge, without giving themselves over to western lifestyles.

I think it is a really positive move, inshallah it will succeed and find middle ground.

Salaam

Salaam indeed Sal... But it's all about that "tribal" mindset that I was talking about on another thread. (I'm sure CPi still 'believes' that he's a nomad, I''ll let him). I agree that a middle ground must be sought and reached by the people there.

The ordinary people, not the elites, need to be made aware of the rich heritage that their ancestors gave to them relating to the preservation of much of the technical knowledge that the west has done so well in developing to it's economic advantage. Right now the Imams have control of the "tribal mindset" of the people. How might the King overcome all of that? Excluding their input won't do it. That will only make them dig in their orthodox heels all the more.

I'm like you, it needs to happen, but these sorts of cultural changes take many years, and the people have been put to sleep by the oil revenues and the goodies it's all been buying. It's very difficult to separate cultural realities from the economic pursuits of a nation, especially one as tradition bound as Saudi Arabia.

I'm kind of pessimistic about outcomes, but I do wish the King well with this.

flow....

Muslimwoman · 10-27-2007, 01:37 PM

Have a read of this when you get a minute Flow, it is from early last year but shows some of the changes that have been happening in Saudi. Okay to us they sound crazy but for them they are quite amazing, the fact that the Imams haven't gone nuts about some of these changes is a small step forward.

Veil power | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited

The secret, imo, will be change at a slow pace, if they try to force changes and opening up of society too quickly then the Imams will close ranks and cause mayhem. They need to water things down over a few generations, so the upcoming Imams are used to more open ideas. The day for a world wide party will come when they get rid of the bloody religious police, they are the scurge of hell.

flowperson · 10-27-2007, 04:59 PM

Hi MW...Salaam

Thanks for the article, very informative. Like I said, it will take many years, and as you said it must be done in baby steps. But the exclusion of the religious clothing cops from this new institution that the King is building is a positive step forward I think.

Of course you do realize that men ARE uncontrollably attracted to women, and women ARE natural temptresses. And both of these realities are the baggage that comes with our primal directive, "Be Fruitful and Multiply".

I think one of the greatest accomplishments of the western mindset over the centuries is that these individual and societal urges have been subsumed into development philosophies aimed at the common welfare. Modern media image infiltration into our lives is countering this somewhat, but the incidence of violent sex crimes seems to also be receding in most industrialized nations.

Stay well....flow....

bob x · 10-27-2007, 05:02 PM

I don't think they have "many years", certainly not "a few generations", to accomplish the changes.

flowperson · 10-27-2007, 05:08 PM

And should we all now address you as "Prophet Bob x" or perhaps "Great and Munificent Seer Bob x"?

Don't try to incite unproductive arguments so obviously.
It should insult your intelligence. I'm quite sure that it does ours.
But hey, I really can't speak for others, nor should I....

Go 'haid an' do yo' thingy Michigander.

flow....

bob x · 10-29-2007, 03:15 AM

I stated my opinion, prefaced by "I don't think that..." not "In the name of GAWWWUUDD I prophesy..." If you disagree with my opinion, then disagree with it. I think that Saudi Arabia is very poorly served by advice to move slowly; the time to start a gradual program of change lasting a couple of generations would have been a couple of generations ago.

Muslimwoman · 10-29-2007, 10:15 AM

But they did not start a couple of generations ago Bob and if they try to make sweeping changes the backlash will rid them of the small changes and advancements they have already made. This world doesn't need another civil war or revolution, it needs steady progress with each nation supporting and helping each other.

bob x · 10-29-2007, 03:57 PM

I know they didn't start a couple generations ago. That is why if they do not move quickly now, it will be too late for them. You think that moving quickly will cause upheaval, and I cannot doubt that you are right, but the alternative will end even worse.

Muslimwoman · 11-06-2007, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob x

I know they didn't start a couple generations ago. That is why if they do not move quickly now, it will be too late for them. You think that moving quickly will cause upheaval, and I cannot doubt that you are right, but the alternative will end even worse.

What is this dreadful alternative you speak of? Living in the dark ages? They have done that for centuries another one isn't going to wipe them off the face of the earth.

I would suggest the other alternative is worse still, push them too fast and the place would be a blood bath (even more so than it is currently).

bob x · 11-06-2007, 07:18 PM

Quote:

What is this dreadful alternative you speak of?

A sheet of radioactive glass where Mecca used to be (or maybe two sheets: I don't think the US would dare unless Russia was in agreement, but another 9/11 close in time to another Beslan schoolhouse, and I can see, "We'll take responsibility for Mecca if you slag Medina").
They used to live in the dark ages in relative isolation from the rest of the world: that is not possible any more. They cannot continue to be a breeding ground for dangerous lunatics, and a funder of lunatics elsewhere: it won't be tolerated. There are many people whose attitudes toward Islam are angrier than mine, though a lot of them are too polite to express themselves as openly as I do.

Muslimwoman · 11-06-2007, 08:55 PM

Bob you must have a better understanding of world politics than that (I know you do). Last week the King of Saudi was in the UK having dinner with the Queen and all the loud opponents of the Saudi regime attended the dinner. OIL is the name of the game and while they have oil our countries will talk a good game but not play one.

Quite frankly I would love the Saudi's to be brought to task for their misuse of my faith. My husband goes red in the face every time I say Islam and Saudi in the same sentence. But bombing them achieves nothing more than creating a whole new generation of terrorists. This is what our countries need to understand, our actions, our policies are helping to create more of these lunatics. It is like punching a baloon, deal with one place and others pop up somewhere else.

Saudi does breed these nutters but hatred will not re-educate them, it will feed their hatred. There are also people in Saudi that have no thoughts beyond their daily lives and these are the people we should support and help, not push into a corner so they have to come out fighting.