What's happened to Islam?

[Muslimwoman]

Bob another question for you regarding the 'accidental' killing of children in the process of defending Israel.

We both agree that there are strong parallels between the Palestinian situation and that of the IRA. Correct?

Bearing in mind that weaponry is rather more sophisticated these days than in the 60's - 80's, please consider the following. Given your view that these things happen when a country defends itself, can you please try to explain the following to me:

July 2006 (1 single MONTH) number of Palestinian children killed by Israel = 36 (figures reported by UNICEF)

1969 - 1999 (30 years) number of Irish children (under 16) killed by British Army = 7 (and that includes 2 known to be in the IRA Youth Section).

The IRA and Hamas do not have 'war offices' they both fight from within the community. So how come in 30 years the British Army accidentally killed 7 children but filled the prisons to overflowing with terrorists, yet in just 1 month Israel 'accidentally' killed 36 children? What do you believe can account for the huge difference in these numbers?

You can check the numbers of children killed, may G-d protect their souls, here:

Articles re: Attacks on Children

IRIN Middle East | Middle East | OPT | OPT: Number of children killed doubles | Children Conflict | Breaking News

In 2002 192 Palestinian children were killed - againt 7 in 30 years. Both terrorists groups used bombings, both worked inside communities and both were strongly supported by the community.

As an ex serviceperson, regardless of religon, I have to ask what the hell is going on. Does it not make you wonder?

Of course I accept that Israeli children are killed by the Palestinian terrorists - that is why they are terrorists.

[bob x]

We do not know these people, we have no communication with terrorists or hate mongers and we do not attend these mosques

According to you, you are married to one of the hate mongers. According to the Hardline Takeover thread, half the mosques in England are run by those people. You cannot find them? I do not believe you.

Oh and while we are individually fixing the world you can get Bush to withdraw his troops from the occupation of Iraq.

I opposed the war in Iraq from before the beginning, demand immediate withdrawal, and support candidates who work for that with my money and time. One thing I would never do, however, is tell anybody that the war in Iraq has nothing to with what "real" America teaches; obviously it reveals a moral problem with America, that this occurred.

And I am frightened of what would happen to me, personally, if I set foot in one of the Muslim countries.
If I were a racist I would be afraid to step foot in Africa...

Obviously you were not catching my meaning. I would be subject to lengthy harsh imprisonment in Egypt, public flogging in Malaysia, or summary execution in Iran if I were insufficiently careful about concealing what I am. That is why I do not go to any of those places.

Do you mean like electrocution of people - you still do that in the US don't you? Or maybe you prefer the firing squads or the hangings.

If you want to start a thread on Capital Punishment, you will find I oppose it. I oppose evil in my own country, and I oppose evil elsewhere. All you are doing, despite your denial, is 'saying you do it so why shouldn't we or pointing the finger away from Muslims'.

I would suggest having your head cut off cleanly is rather less painful or frightening than having electricity pumped through your body.

THere is no such thing as committing such an act "cleanly"; and the suffering is far longer-lasting. I am appalled and disgusted that you would defend such a thing.

You can suggest that the Palestinians are the only nation to have turned to terrorism

I have never said such a thing. I have pointed out that others have turned to terrorism and called them evil too. I have ALREADY POINTED OUT TO YOU that I did not say this, and so at this point I cannot consider it "misunderstanding", rather "dishonesty".

fortunately it had Nelson Mandela also.
Would that be the same Nelson Mandela that helped to plant the bombs in Church Street?

He did not.

The Palestinians will realise very soon that Israel is not going to go away

People have been saying that for decades.

At some point the two sides must accept their wrongs and come together to talk - that is if the US ever allows it.

We have dragged them together and forced them to talk, often.

So what are you suggesting, the Palestinians should rise above it and just accept their fate?

If they stop their policy of pointless murder, it will become practical to grant them independence. If they will not, then their fate will remain as it is.

Oh look, then you suggest that Israel is simply defending itself against Palestinian attacks so the evil they do is in response to evil therefore justified.

No, not in *response* to evil (I condemn it when Israelis act out of sheer vengeance; I overthrew the Israeli government once over this). To *prevent* evil they ought to be more careful not to hurt those not involved, but they must take out the perpetrators.

I do not in any way defend suicide bombings or rockets fired into residential areas but I also do not defend shooting children for throwing rocks

You shouldn't train your children to throw rocks. That ought to go without saying, but apparently it doesn't.

You shriek at me about things I never said: isn't it about time you asked yourself why you keep doing that?
Perhaps for the same reason you keep incorrectly telling me what I think

I, at least, read the words you actually say, which is more than you do. You fabricate a quote from me, for example, here: "I am pleased we have gone from 'it is insane to suggest they even existed' to accepting that a handful may have done evil things toward their own people." *I* was the one who mentioned the "Elder Councils" first: we have not "gone from" calling it insane to recognize the handful of collaborators, because "we" were never at any such point. What IS insane, sick, and twisted, is saying that Jews were "prominent" among the perpetrators of the Holocaust and perhaps orchestrated the whole thing: THAT is the sick position which you endorsed. If you want to say you are sorry for endorsing such a thing, that you did not mean anything so extreme, that would be one thing; but your dishonesty in pretending you did not say it is unacceptable.

For you to suggest that Palestinians are continuing this behaviour is offensive, incorrect and not just a little insulting to the Palestinians and the Jews that died. I also feel that it belittles what the Jews went through in the holocaust.

The Palestinians were allies of the Nazis. The Palestinian leader trained SS units. They were active participants, and the institutional continuation of the Palestinian Nazis has just been elected as their official leadership. If they are not managing to kill 500 or 1000 at a time anymore, that is only because the Israelis have been effective in keeping them weak, not because their ill-will has ever lessened.

That depends what you call neo-Nazi propaganda

The worldwide Jewish conspiracy, the blood-drinking Jews, and yes, the garbage about how the Jews set up the whole Holocaust.

[bob x]

"Friend", since you obviously have no clue why I find what the Qur'an says vile and disgusting, let me explain it to you:
Violence has no justification except to prevent other violence. If a wife is unfaithful to her husband, of course he is entitled to a divorce, and she loses her rights to any support or to custody of any children they might have. But if the husbands murders her, or commits gross violence, that is a crime. Such "crimes of passion" may be punished less heavily because it is recognized that not everyone can control their baser emotions. But to kill, or commit such savage violence as the Qur'an calls for, not in the heat of passion but cold-bloodedly, as an act of the whole society? That is deliberately feeding the baser emotions, calling mercy bad and cruelty good. To do such in the name of God is a profound blasphemy.

DO you feel these testament verses represent your religion?

Absolutely not. They represent the Middle Eastern sickness about sexuality and violence which is found throughout the Abrahamic religions.

do you reject them?

Utterly and completely.

[Abdullah]

My dear Bob

Please take a few minutes to read this message which is sent to you with love.

You can allow yourself to remain to be blinded by hate, and that will only lead you to earn the wrath of God in this world and the hereafter, for God dont like people who allow blind hatred to overlook the crimes of one side and to blame all the evil on the other.

So if you do ever choose to be impartial and unbiased about this issue at all, then I will just give you the 'lowdown' of the reality which your own subconscience will attest to...:

The Jews immigrated to Palestine uninvited by the Palestinians, and their leaders enticed them there with lies such as that the land of Palestine is uninhabbited. The reason for them lies were, the leaders reached a secret deal with the British for them to immigrate there and for the British to help them make Palestine into a Jewish state...; now there is nothing wrong with that plan if the land had belonged to the British; but it didn't for it belonged to the Palestinian people and they had no right to give away other peoples land.

Now if there were any friction and the occasional incidents of violence between the Palestinians and Jews before the 'occupation', then any friction from the Palestinian side may have been due to them catching drift of the plan of the Jews to confiscate their land. the troubles may have even been flared up by, and instigated by the Jews so who are we to judge about who was wrong and who was right in that somewhat troublesome period [without the facts?].

And no matter what happened before the occupation, it does not give the Jews right to occupy the Palestinian land and kick out the Palestinians from their own home land and thereafter keep on opressing them for the next 50 years.

Say for example, the Jews were subjected to a bit of hostility and racism by the Palestinians prior to the occupation and the Palestinians were totally at fault for this [not saying that that was indeeed the case, but just giving an example], then if that is your justifcation for the occupation and opression, then that is just like saying that the asians and blacks in Britian have a right to forcefully takeover power and occupy and opress the indigenous people of britian for the reason that they had been subjected to hostility and racism [and many racist murders]; I'm sure you wouldn't agree with the latter so why agree with the former?

Now after the occupation, it is documented in history of how the Palestinians have been subjected to continuous opression and even a concerted effort to wipe out any aspirations of a Palestinian homeland/state, for the first few decades of the occupation. And the opression of the last 15 years or so, which involved zioinst forces battering Palestinian [demonstrating and stone throwing] youths with sticks and breaking their bones [a specific order from rabeen], to massacreing down the Palestinian women and children and other innocents with mahine guns, bombs, missiles and bullets.

Yes the Palestinians have reacted by commiting atrocious terrorist acts which there is no justifciation for, but the casualites on the Palestinian side is about 5-7 times greater then on the Jewish side. [and the Jews make sure they keep it that way].

So if you are a religious person at all, then do you not have a heart?; how can you, after all the opression and the dehumanising conditions that the Palestinians have been and are being put through, express such strong hatred and malice for them and overlook all the great crimes against humanity coming fom the zionist side?

Any hatred for Palestinian Terrorist acts is understandable, but why all the hatred for the Palestinians in general, and for the religion that they are associated with, when their religion does not condone terrorism?

Peace and guidance

ps: this is not to say that killing from the Palestinian side should be overlooked, for killing, no matter who it is from, should be adressed and a solution for it's end should be sought, but lets all be fair and consistent in denouncing violence, by acknowledging and condemning the violence of ALL parties involved.

Peace.

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by Abdullah

...And the opression of the last 15 years or so, which involved zioinst forces battering Palestinian [demonstrating and stone throwing] youths with sticks and breaking their bones [a specific order from rabeen], to massacreing down the Palestinian women and children and other innocents with mahine guns, bombs, missiles and bullets, has been seen by by the worldwide community with their own eyes, on their telivision screens.

The above excerpt has been edited with the additional bit at the end of it

Peace

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

According to you, you are married to one of the hate mongers. According to the Hardline Takeover thread, half the mosques in England are run by those people. You cannot find them? I do not believe you.

I am married to an anti-Semite yes but he is far from a terrorist. I have said that and I have pointed out that I am teaching him, with history, to see the errors in his thinking, in making the huge mistake that an entire nation of people are bad - so I wonder who will teach you not to be a bigot?

The nearest mosque to me in the UK is over 2 hours drive away so I do not attend the mosque here - so you know what you can do with your disbelief.

My question was a general one, what can 'we' the moderate Muslims do - I see you chose not to make any suggestions/comments. So what are your suggestions for what ordinary Muslims can do about the terrorists?

Originally Posted by bob x

I opposed the war in Iraq from before the beginning, demand immediate withdrawal

You obviously missed my point. It is as easy for you personally to get Bush to withdraw from Iraq as it is for me to stop Osama bin Laden - neither is possible.

Originally Posted by bob x

Obviously you were not catching my meaning. I would be subject to lengthy harsh imprisonment in Egypt, public flogging in Malaysia, or summary execution in Iran if I were insufficiently careful about concealing what I am. That is why I do not go to any of those places.

And if I held extreme Islamic views I could easily be held in guantanamo or one of the US secret interrogation prisons throughout the world, where no doubt I would be tortured - so your point is?

Originally Posted by bob x

If you want to start a thread on Capital Punishment, you will find I oppose it. I oppose evil in my own country, and I oppose evil elsewhere. All you are doing, despite your denial, is 'saying you do it so why shouldn't we or pointing the finger away from Muslims'.

I just feel that when you deal with the same problems in your own country you then have the right to point the finger outside your borders, it just smacks of hypocracy otherwise.

Originally Posted by bob x

THere is no such thing as committing such an act "cleanly"; and the suffering is far longer-lasting. I am appalled and disgusted that you would defend such a thing.

Where did I defend it???? What I suggested is that one is a cleaner death than the other and if I was going to be executed I would rather have my head cut off cleanly in Saudi than be fried for 10 minutes in the US.

Originally Posted by bob x

I have never said such a thing. I have pointed out that others have turned to terrorism and called them evil too. I have ALREADY POINTED OUT TO YOU that I did not say this, and so at this point I cannot consider it "misunderstanding", rather "dishonesty".

Why do you always turn to personal insults when you get frustrated?

This is a direct cut and paste from your post (of course as I am such a dishonest person in your view you might want to go back to your post and check it):

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']The question is not why they feel anger, but why they express anger in such an insane and counterproductive manner, unlike other nations who have experienced occupation.[/font]

You do not say some other nations. In anyone’s use of the English language that means other nations who have experienced occupation have not expressed their anger in this way.

Originally Posted by bob x

He did not.

I consider any person that 'signs off' on a terrorist bombing to be as culpable as those that physically plant the bomb. As Mandela states in his own book that he signed off on the bombing I consider him to be the one that planted it, as without his agreement it would not have happened. That makes him a terrorist.

Originally Posted by bob x

We have dragged them together and forced them to talk, often.

So when Bush says "do not speak to Hamas" (a democractically elected government) he actually means ....... what exactly?

Originally Posted by bob x

If they stop their policy of pointless murder, it will become practical to grant them independence. If they will not, then their fate will remain as it is.

And if they are given their independence and the occupied territories returned to them then they will stop the pointless murder - sort of a circular argument don't you think. As it is the Palestinians that are being occupied why in your view should they be the ones to make the first move?

Originally Posted by bob x

To *prevent* evil they ought to be more careful not to hurt those not involved, but they must take out the perpetrators.

Perhaps then you can answer my question regarding the number of children killed buy the Israeli's in comparison to the number killed by the British army during the Irish troubles?

Originally Posted by bob x

You shouldn't train your children to throw rocks. That ought to go without saying, but apparently it doesn't.

Just when I think your attitude can't get any worse .......

Firstly I do not have any children so I teach my non-existant children nothing (or would that be your insidious attitude that all Muslims are alike?).

Secondly you do not respond to my post about the numbers of children killed and now you justify killing children because they throw stones. Children in the UK throw stones at police cars, do you suggest we shoot them? I suppose they would no longer throw stones. And you call me insane, sick and twisted!!!

Originally Posted by bob x

What IS insane, sick, and twisted, is saying that Jews were "prominent" among the perpetrators of the Holocaust

I suggest you read this article, you will see that it is written and researched by an historian with no axe to grind.

David Irving's Action Report On-line

There are comments by other historians at the bottom of the page.
The Jewish historian quoted says that he does not consider people with one Jewish parent to be Jewish but I do wonder then what constitutes a Jew? Is it only if you follow the faith or if both parents are Jewish? If you are Jewish and your wife is Christian, are your children Jewish or not?

[Muslimwoman]

The reality for people living in Israel is that lunatics like Armadinajad wants to wipe them off the map (if you accept that translation) and terrorists are going to try to kill you with rockets.

The reality for the Palestinians is not so different I would suggest:

"We killed them out of a certain naive hubris. Believing with absolute certitude that now, with the White House, the Senate, and much of the American media in our hands, the lives of others do not count as much as our own..." Ari Shavat. Reproduced in the New York Times, May 27th, 1999

"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994

It seems both sides have their lunatics.

[bob x]

I am married to an anti-Semite yes but he is far from a terrorist.

"There are the extremists who actively perpetrate the violence, the larger group who actively fund and support them, the still larger group who spew supportive hate-speech"

And if I held extreme Islamic views I could easily be held in guantanamo or one of the US secret interrogation prisons throughout the world, where no doubt I would be tortured - so your point is?

That my fear about personal safety if I set foot in Muslim countries is a realistic one.

I just feel that when you deal with the same problems in your own country you then have the right to point the finger outside your borders, it just smacks of hypocracy otherwise.

Right, like you would never ever consider denouncing the Burmese junta until the Muslim world is perfect?

What I suggested is that one is a cleaner death than the other and if I was going to be executed I would rather have my head cut off cleanly in Saudi than be fried for 10 minutes in the US.

My mistake: I thought you said "have your hand cut off cleanly" and were in favor of that.

I have ALREADY POINTED OUT TO YOU that I did not say this, and so at this point I cannot consider it "misunderstanding", rather "dishonesty".

Why do you always turn to personal insults when you get frustrated?

I am frustrated that you continue to lie about what I have said: the first time, I could take it as a "misunderstanding", but after I pointed out to you that I had said the opposite of what you claimed, and then you repeat it, I can no longer believe it is anything other than deliberate. In "The question is not why they feel anger, but why they express anger in such an insane and counterproductive manner, unlike other nations who have experienced occupation." I did not say "unlike any other nations": I have pointed out that some others have resorted to terrorism, while most do not; those who resort to terrorism are in the grip of sick ideologies. Was the Irish version of Catholicism a sick ideology? Certainly. Is the Tamil version of Hinduism a sick ideology? Certainly.
"In anyone’s use of the English language that means other nations who have experienced occupation have not expressed their anger in this way." Exactly. I gave you the examples of Germany, Lithuania, and Poland. Tibet and Japan also come to mind.

As Mandela states in his own book that he signed off on the bombing I consider him to be the one that planted it

I did not know that. This destroys his respectability in my sight, if true.

We have dragged them together and forced them to talk, often.
So when Bush says "do not speak to Hamas" (a democractically elected government) he actually means ....... what exactly?

Bush is not the only President there has ever been. I am sure I do not need to cite the history to you. I am sure you will have your own slant on why all prior talks have broken down, but please remember who it was that made talks happen in the first place.

Perhaps then you can answer my question regarding the number of children killed buy the Israeli's in comparison to the number killed by the British army during the Irish troubles?

DON'T TEACH YOUR CHILDREN TO THROW ROCKS! What the hell is the matter with you people? If a bunch of children were throwing rocks at me, I would certainly take a baseball bat to them if their parents would not discipline them; if their parents actually encouraged it, they belong in jail. I would not favor shooting at them, but to beat them as they deserve requires catching them first.

Children in the UK throw stones at police cars, do you suggest we shoot them?

Their parents, first of all, should discipline them, or be imprisoned. If the parents are encouraging it, the children must be disciplined by the law. Are you suggesting this kind of behavior is cute or endearing?

If they stop their policy of pointless murder, it will become practical to grant them independence. If they will not, then their fate will remain as it is...
And if they are given their independence and the occupied territories returned to them then they will stop the pointless murder

REALLY? I don't believe that. They were engaging in pointless murders for many decades before 1967.

What IS insane, sick, and twisted, is saying that Jews were "prominent" among the perpetrators of the Holocaust
I suggest you read this article, you will see that it is written and researched by an historian with no axe to grind.

DAVID IRVING???? You might as well cite Goebbels.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

"There are the extremists who actively perpetrate the violence, the larger group who actively fund and support them, the still larger group who spew supportive hate-speech"

The point being that we can only change things by education, by being honest about the rights and wrongs of both sides. While each side is folding their arms and saying we are right and they are wrong we are getting nowhere fast. Both sides believe they are superior beings and until that changes, on both sides, nothing else will. Just look at our discussion on this thread, neither of us lives in Israel or Palestine, neither of us is directy affected on a daily basis by the troubles but we both have very strong views about it. So how do you think the people there are feeling, is their anger and feelings of being on the 'right' side not going to be stronger?

As you are no doubt researching and re-evaluating your views on Mandela, my husband is having to do the same with the Jewish history. If I can change his thinking by just a couple of degrees that will filter down to his young brother, then to his children, etc. If I just shout at him and say the history he has been taught is biased, how receptive do you think he would be.

I recently saw a newspiece that interviewed an ex-Jihadist. It took 6 years and a group of 20+ Muslim scholars to re-educate him. This 'brand' of Islam cannot be erradicated with hatred, only with education and to provide that education we have to get the scholars on board, not alienate them and make them feel cornered or they will come out fighting on the wrong side.

Originally Posted by bob x

That my fear about personal safety if I set foot in Muslim countries is a realistic one.

I would say your fears are well founded but that is based on your attitude to a given group of people. I doubt you would fair any better if you had the same feelings for Communist China and went there or were racist and went to Africa. However if you were to visit the Middle East with an open mind and a willingness to talk and learn, I believe you would be treated with the utmost respect.

Originally Posted by bob x

"Right, like you would never ever consider denouncing the Burmese junta until the Muslim world is perfect?

Very good point, I shall accept that one.

Originally Posted by bob x

"Was the Irish version of Catholicism a sick ideology? Certainly. Is the Tamil version of Hinduism a sick ideology? Certainly

And I agree that the terrorist version of Islam is a sick ideology but we are still left with the problem of how to deal with it. I believe Ireland has shown us the way. It is only by opening talks with terrorists/freedom fighters (depending which side you are on) that you achieve anything. By listening to their grievances with an open mind, people do not take up terrorism because thay had nothing to do last week, they begin with a genuine feeling of grievance in their opinion.

"In anyone’s use of the English language that means other nations who have experienced occupation have not expressed their anger in this way."

Originally Posted by bob x

Exactly. I gave you the examples of Germany, Lithuania, and Poland. Tibet and Japan also come to mind.

The occupation of Germany lasted just 2 years and if you read the history you will see that they were treated very differently from any other major country that has been occupied. The circumstances wersomewhat different.

Lithuania had the LLA, DKR, WSBE, etc. The guerilla war against the Russians carried on until 1952. Of course there were also the Bretheren of the Forest that you dismissed as insignificant (it is estimated that between 12,000 - 15,000 men in 700 groups formed the Bretheren and fought the occupation).

I believe Poland had the Polish Peoples Army, sponsored by the Russians to fight Nazi Germany. In 1970 their veterans society had 330,000 members.

To one side all of these groups were freedom fighters but to the other they were terrorists that killed without mercy. Strange how history keeps repeating itself. I think you will find it very hard to find any country that has been occupied that has simply shrugged and said oh ok then.

Originally Posted by bob x

I am sure you will have your own slant on why all prior talks have broken down, but please remember who it was that made talks happen in the first place.

How could I forget that, it was our countries that created this bloody mess in the first place.

Originally Posted by bob x

What the hell is the matter with you people?

You are being offensive again.

Originally Posted by bob x

"If a bunch of children were throwing rocks at me, I would certainly take a baseball bat to them if their parents would not discipline them; if their parents actually encouraged it, they belong in jail. I would not favor shooting at them, but to beat them as they deserve requires catching them first.

So you are there in your body armour, helmet and bloody big machine gun and you would take a baseball bat to children. Says a lot about you Bob.

Are you really trying to justify shooting children dead for throwing stones at TANKS?:

Palestinian children have suffered disproportionately in the uprising. Many of them have been shot by the Israeli army while throwing stones at tanks or at soldiers.

Tawfiq Salman, a psychiatrist in Bethlehem who works with children and carried out a survey, said: "Ninety per cent of Palestinian children suffer from post-traumatic stress syndrome as a result of the Israeli closures and the shootings."

Children become the new martyrs of Gaza | Israel and the Middle East | Guardian Unlimited

That is quite a disturbing story if you have time to read it.

Originally Posted by bob x

"Their parents, first of all, should discipline them, or be imprisoned. If the parents are encouraging it, the children must be disciplined by the law. Are you suggesting this kind of behavior is cute or endearing?

You talk as though we are discussing some sleepy little town in the US where a bunch of kids have gone a bit rebellious. No it is not cute or endearing, it is desperate.

I wonder what you make of these rock throwing children and the adults that stand by and do nothing?

YouTube - Teaching Israeli Children Hate=

Please watch this video, start at 3 minutes if you cant be bothered to watch the whole thing. This is a group of Palestinian children and their teachers trying to go to school - then tell me the parents should discipline them. This is the reality of life for children over there, if you were a parent of one of these children what would you do?

YouTube - Hebron School Patrol=

The key here is to educate ourselves as best we can about the conditions people are living under over there, on both sides - then we can make informed comments and decisions.

Originally Posted by bob x

DAVID IRVING???? You might as well cite Goebbels.
[/i]

So because it is on a website you do not like that makes Cambridge University studies invalid?

What about the Kansas Press would you believe them?

Hitler's Jewish Soldiers

or

the Holocaust Teacher Resource Centre?

Hitler's Jewish Soldiers by Bryan Mark Rigg

the Yale Bulletin?

Yale Bulletin and Calendar

The Jewish Journal?

JewishJournal.com

Are they all Nazi's too? At some point in your life you are going to have to open your mind a little and accept reality, it may not be pretty but it is real and simply denying it doesn't make it any less real.

[Muslimwoman]

It won't let me edit. The comment about coming to the ME and being treated with respect - that would be unless you are a Jew and dress as one, in which case unfortunately these days you would not. Or a Nazi and dress like one.

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

The difficulty for both Muslims and Jews is that it is very difficult to draw the line between what is a religious matter and what is a political one, because in both Israel and Palestine faith is used by political parties to win the backing of the people but that does not mean they speak for or are a demonstration of that faith.

ain't that the truth.

any discussion that does not support every aspect of the Jewish version of history is met with accusations of anti semitism and that is very hurtful.

not by me. however, the allegation of jewish complicity with the holocaust (naturally, for nefarious zionist reasons) has, in my experience, always, always, always been both a holy grail and a cause celebre for anti-semites, so you'll forgive me if i give it the short shrift it so absolutely deserves.

Of Iran Yes, of Islam No.

and of shi'a generally. the majority of iraqis are shi'a, too. i thought i was being quite clear about what i consider representative and who of what. and, frankly, like bob says, 10% of a billion muslims (or however many it is) is enough to be seriously, seriously worrying - to call it "small" smacks of rhetorical fidgy-widginess. like he says, it is "far from negligible", just like the 130K muslims in the *UK* who want me dead. and they live in my neighbourhood!

We need both sides to stop all this "you did a & b in 1920"

quite. perhaps abdullah and friend would like to acknowledge this as well?

Simon Wiesenthal said "We have done very little to condemn Jewish collaboration with the Nazi's. When, after the war, I demanded that those who had abused their office in the ghettos or concentration camps be removed from Jewish committees, I was told that 'this would diminish the guilt of the Nazis'".

and that's *precisely* what's happening in the arab world and right here on this thread. certainly what he wanted should have been done, i would agree with him - but i am 1000% certain that he would be as appalled as i to discover their putative actions being used to delegitimise the state of israel and transform jewish victimhood to jewish culpability. only in a universe as twisted as that of the anti-semites could such a thing occur.

Have we not discussed before that unless the Muslim nation holds its hand up and is honest about it's past and current views and actions that there is no hope for interfaith dialogue? I do hope I have misunderstood you and you are not saying it is ok to examine every history, in its true light, except the Jewish one - or that makes people anti semitic!

i think you'll find that the difference is that in one case you are talking about the actions of 20-30 people being extrapolated into an international conspiracy that has little basis in fact and in the other you are talking about a systemic, ongoing refusal to take responsibility for demonstrable views and actions that continues to perpetuate a cycle of violence and vainglory which causes each and every one of us personal grief and considerable inconvenience.

try saying that Britain was on the side of right and good during WWII and see what comes back.

if they weren't, then i don't know what the side of right and good actually was.

Or perhaps skip the political animals and make a committee of ecomonists and strategists from around the world, 50% chosen by Israel and 50% chosen by Palestine?

an interesting idea, but like you yourself have said, a committee that lacks the wherewithal to devise a religiously acceptable solution will also lack the ability to make it acceptable to the substantial minority to whom these are the only real solutions. hence previous ceasefires have had to be reinforced with the islamic concept of "hudna".

The court case dates back to 2004, when Arab citizens were barred from bidding on an Israeli government tender for housing in Carmiel, northern Israel.

Arab Israelis were excluded for the tender on the grounds that the land in Carmiel belonged to the JNF and was intended only for Jewish use.

I assume this is JNF owned land? Where does the JNF fit into the structure of Israel?

oh yes, the carmiel case. i remember this. it caused a massive hoo-hah. the jnf is a charity that owns about 10% of the land in israel, like the national trust in the UK. it's a jewish charity which predates the state of israel and its purpose is to "hold the land in trust for the jewish people". you can see where there would be a problem; the jnf is a private organisation (not a governmental one) that doesn't have helping arabs to get on the housing ladder on its list of priorities. on the other hand, israeli law should make it illegal to discriminate in the allocation of *government* housebuilding. i think that's what the case was about. you may be interested to know that there is an islamic waqf that owns about 5% of the land in trust for muslims - it is not, obviously, interested in getting jews housed. the community-based structure does back to the ottoman "millet" structure. anyway, both are controversial in their own ways. i personally don't see a solution until jewish and arab neighbourhoods are mixed, but the trend, as you know, is for the communities to separate, unfortunately.

i'm pleased to hear about this palestinian human rights monitoring group if it does focus from the palestinian side on these sorts of problems; certainly the palestinian christians are on the receiving end from their muslim co-citizens often enough, not just jews. i've heard of bassem eid, too.

I suggest you look at the type of weaponry the Israeli's possess. They have rockets that can literally turn left at the end of the main street but they seem to keep accidentally killing children sitting in classrooms.

ok, there are two explanations for this:

1. the rockets are not as sophisticated, reliable and accurate as the israeli military make out
2. the israelis deliberately set out to kill children

same goes for the US and UK's "technological superiority" in iraq, actually. you must surely concede that 1. is likely to be true, given that the military know how to spin and exaggerate as well as anyone else and that 2. is at best counterproductive in terms of actually settling anything for good.

Originally Posted by flowperson

Sorry...I can only take so much obtuse, hardheaded, narrow visioned, reactionary, biased, twisted reasoning.

flow, i can't believe you're actually aiming that comment at bob when friend and abdullah are also posting in this discussion.

Originally Posted by Friend

DO you feel these testament verses represent your religion?do you reject them?

once again, we seem to be unable to discuss the failings of islam without reference to how much worse the jews are. how typical.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

And if I held extreme Islamic views I could easily be held in guantanamo or one of the US secret interrogation prisons throughout the world, where no doubt I would be tortured - so your point is?

if you held extreme islamic views, you could, in the UK, talk about them at length in the street, in your mosque, at home, on TV, on the web and in print, because of free speech. goodness knows i hear enough of them. on the other hand, if you were extreme enough to travel to afghanistan or iraq or somewhere with a view to sticking it to the "crusaders" or happened to be captured in one of these places without a *very* good reason for them to believe you weren't one of these nutters, that might very well happen. now i happen to think guantanamo bay is counterproductive, but those guys aren't just there for talking - they're there for doing or at least appearing to be doing; if they didn't, of course they should be released but the point remains - you cannot be seized off the street in the UK and sent to belmarsh for merely shooting your mouth off.

Where did I defend it???? What I suggested is that one is a cleaner death than the other and if I was going to be executed I would rather have my head cut off cleanly in Saudi than be fried for 10 minutes in the US.

oh dear, that argument simply isn't going to help.

I consider any person that 'signs off' on a terrorist bombing to be as culpable as those that physically plant the bomb. As Mandela states in his own book that he signed off on the bombing I consider him to be the one that planted it, as without his agreement it would not have happened. That makes him a terrorist.

that's what the israelis locked up barghouti for. however, they'll still need to let him out in the long run, the same way they needed to deal with gerry adams and martin mcguinness.

And if they are given their independence and the occupied territories returned to them then they will stop the pointless murder - sort of a circular argument don't you think.

hmm. i think given the conduct of hamas in gaza since they got their territory returned to them (and hizbollah in south lebanon) you might forgive the israelis for not finding this argument terribly convincing nowadays.

Children in the UK throw stones at police cars, do you suggest we shoot them?

i don't think that's the point. the point is that their parents should not allow them to act in such a way, nor for others to encourage them to do so. if i encouraged my children to do so, i would expect to face some kind of legal sanction, i would have thought.

We are poles apart mentally and are therefore likely to read into each others comments what we expect to find there. We are also both rather fond of generalising - which doesn't help.

ok, this i think you can both agree on. so agree on it and let's have a more productive discussion. MW, for example, does not teach her children to throw rocks, because a) she is sensible and b) doesn't have any. i would certainly encourage both of you to read each others' posts very carefully and encourage you not to post in anger.

but, as to the david irving link... "no axe to grind"?

WHAT? ARE YOU FECKING KIDDING ME? DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHO THIS GUY IS? i mean, seriously!!

b'shalom

bananabrain

[bob x]

I would say your fears are well founded but that is based on your attitude to a given group of people.

No, I am talking about the sexuality issue. You seem to be obtuse here. I would be in grave danger even if I thought Islam was reety-neet-and-neety-peechy-keen.

The occupation of Germany lasted just 2 years

I thought you actually came from there??? The Russians were there for 44 years, which I thought was world-famous.

Lithuania had the LLA, DKR, WSBE, etc. The guerilla war against the Russians carried on until 1952. Of course there were also the Bretheren of the Forest that you dismissed as insignificant (it is estimated that between 12,000 - 15,000 men in 700 groups formed the Bretheren and fought the occupation).

Did they hijack Russian planes, blow up schoolbuses and dance clubs? Or did they actually try to damage the Russian capacity to injure Lithuanians.

"Their parents, first of all, should discipline them, or be imprisoned. If the parents are encouraging it, the children must be disciplined by the law. Are you suggesting this kind of behavior is cute or endearing?
You talk as though we are discussing some sleepy little town in the US where a bunch of kids have gone a bit rebellious.

Actually I am thinking more of Detroit, where thuggish little kids are a considerable problem. I do not advocate shooting them on sight, but when one of the gangbangers does get shot for whatever reason, I do not mourn overmuch.