What's happened to Islam?

[Friend]

Originally Posted by Eclectic Mystic

Someone needs to bomb this thread.

Ok...

As I'm muslimah...then I'm terrorist as your perceptions about us

I will do

.
.










I'm sorry...it Just attic wit

[bananabrain]

hilarious.

and you're muslimah as well, are you? well that explains a lot. i remember *your* views pretty well from this thread:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/...jews-6108.html

it's people like you that make it possible for the terrorists to claim that what they do is supported by muslims.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

not by me. however, the allegation of jewish complicity with the holocaust (naturally, for nefarious zionist reasons) has, in my experience, always, always, always been both a holy grail and a cause celebre for anti-semites, so you'll forgive me if i give it the short shrift it so absolutely deserves.

Okay lets get this sorted. I am not, I repeat, I am not an anti-semite but can understand that they exist even here on CR which would make a discussion on this issue difficult. I do however find that if I have read something that is incorrect it is better to explain and correct my kowledge than to make personal insults and simply say you are wrong. So either we need to agree that the issue is off limits, bearing in mind that opens the door to all sorts of subjects being off limits, or we need to engage in constructive discussion and ignore any posters that do not engage in constructive discussion.

One of the reasons I spend so much time posting on CR and other forums is to try to correct, politely, incorrect things that people believe about my faith. So rather than name call tell me where my knowledge is wrong, point me at reliable information that can possibly change how I see things. This is not directed solely at you BB just a general remark.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

frankly, like bob says, 10% of a billion muslims (or however many it is) is enough to be seriously, seriously worrying - to call it "small" smacks of rhetorical fidgy-widginess. like he says, it is "far from negligible", just like the 130K muslims in the *UK* who want me dead. and they live in my neighbourhood!

Go back through the posts. When I was talking about an insignificant number I was talking about terrorists I believe - 0.01% is an insignificant number to me. Their actions are not insignificant by any stretch of the imagination but their numbers are in comparison to the whole - as a representation of our faith. As for Shia being 10% of the whole I have to agree to disagree, 10% to me is a small percentage -it may be a large number of people because of the number of Muslims worldwide but as a percentage it is small. If you said Zionists make up 10% of the Jewish nation I would also call that a small percentage.

As for people wanting you dead for your religious belief or something happening in countries most of us have never been to is sheer insanity. Of course it is worrying for you and if you have children more so I should think. I cannot explain their views any more than I can explain why people turn to terrorism, I cannot speak for those people as I am not one of them but I will object if anyone suggests my faith has taught me their views.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

quite. perhaps abdullah and friend would like to acknowledge this as well?

You're not holding your breath are you?

Originally Posted by bananabrain

but i am 1000% certain that he would be as appalled as i to discover their putative actions being used to delegitimise the state of israel and transform jewish victimhood to jewish culpability. only in a universe as twisted as that of the anti-semites could such a thing occur.

I have a problem with your use of the words anti-semite here BB, not everyone that tries to get to the truth of this matter is an anti-semite. Not everyone is trying to turn this into 'the Jews did it to themselves'. One issue for me is whether these people went to work in the Israeli government and therefore shaped Israeli policy. I accept that anti-semites will jump on this information and use it for their nasty minded purposes but does that mean it should be ignored? There are bigots everywhere and sometimes we have to stand up and be counted even if that is painful to do. Perhaps it would even pull the rug from under some of them, if people stood up and said this is the truth of what happened (maybe I am doing my niave bit there?)

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i think you'll find that the difference is that in one case you are talking about the actions of 20-30 people being extrapolated into an international conspiracy that has little basis in fact

Clearly I believe it is more than 20 or 30 people and that there are facts to support it. As I say above my issue is whether some of these people ended up in a government.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

and in the other you are talking about a systemic, ongoing refusal to take responsibility for demonstrable views and actions that continues to perpetuate a cycle of violence and vainglory which causes each and every one of us personal grief and considerable inconvenience.

Oh no you don't, I am always the first on CR to say that we Muslims are stuck in the dark ages and must reinterpret the Quran in light of modern knowledge and morals. And for those that think I am one lone fruitcase voice I suggest you do some research, millions of Muslims feel the same way. The vast majority of Muslims do not agree with terrorist activities (until it comes to Palestine then the Arab Muslims get all political and their thinking goes wonky). I nearly fell off my seat when a Saudi cleric wrote to bin Laden to tell him he was acting in an unIslamic way after the 9/11 attacks - a Wahabbi - blow me down with a feather.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

if they weren't, then i don't know what the side of right and good actually was.

Are you joking? That is way off topic but the British have a lot to answer for during WWII both in actions but particularly in lack of actions at time. In the end we did the right thing but not for the reasons people like to think. Hell we invented concentration camps long before the Nazi's introduced them.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

an interesting idea, but like you yourself have said, a committee that lacks the wherewithal to devise a religiously acceptable solution will also lack the ability to make it acceptable to the substantial minority to whom these are the only real solutions. hence previous ceasefires have had to be reinforced with the islamic concept of "hudna".

Well it will have to be the aliens then because I am out of ideas.

Oh now come on BB 'islamic concept of "hudna"'. Find me the word hudna in the Quran. If I can work out it isn't there I would think Israel could do the same.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i personally don't see a solution until jewish and arab neighbourhoods are mixed, but the trend, as you know, is for the communities to separate, unfortunately.

Bravo, see that is all it takes, I now understand the issue of 'Jewish only' or 'Arab only' land - thank you for the explanation. Much better than finger pointing.

I agree re the mixed community but I have no idea how the clock could be turned back that far. Without it though there will be seperated communities and the 'hatred' will just be passed from generation to generation. You can just see the day trips now 'see kids, we used to own that bit of land over there but now 'they' have it'. The whole situation is so sad.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i'm pleased to hear about this palestinian human rights monitoring group if it does focus from the palestinian side on these sorts of problems; certainly the palestinian christians are on the receiving end from their muslim co-citizens often enough, not just jews. i've heard of bassem eid, too.

There are a number of such organisations I believe but they tend to record the wrongs of both sides, not just their own. To be fair if they only listed their own they wouldn't exist for very long. However they are out there, they may have a small voice but they do speak out and I take my hat off to them for their bravery under the conditions they are living.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

1. the rockets are not as sophisticated, reliable and accurate as the israeli military make out
2. the israelis deliberately set out to kill children

I am ex military BB, I know what these weapons can do. My concern is the children that are dying on both sides. I do not deny Palestine target civilians and I in no way attempt to defend this policy. But for Israel when you look at the numbers for the dead children in just one year compared to the number that died by accidental fire in Ireland over a 30 year period I am left with serious questions. I would not suggest they set out to kill children specifically but clearly they do not care about avoiding them - sorry but the statistics just do not support any other view.

Personally if was possible I would go and take every child out of the area, they could stay in Disneyland until the bloody 'grownups' either sort themselves out or kill each other. I do not want to see one more dead child on my tv screen, be they Muslim, Jew, Christian or whatever.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

same goes for the US and UK's "technological superiority" in iraq, actually. you must surely concede that

once again, we seem to be unable to discuss the failings of islam without reference to how much worse the jews are. how typical.

Erm are you not doing the same thing above BB? I talk about the number of children killed by Israel and you talk about the US & UK in Iraq. Perhaps it is a natural reaction when faced with something unpleasant to say yes but look at that?

Originally Posted by bananabrain

if you held extreme islamic views, you could, in the UK, talk about them at length in the street, in your mosque, at home, on TV, on the web and in print, because of free speech.

Doesn't the new law state that I could be arrested and imprisoned for inciting hatred and violence?

Originally Posted by bananabrain

goodness knows i hear enough of them. on the other hand, if you were extreme enough to travel to afghanistan or iraq

Now be fair, even as a Muslim in Afghanistan or Iraq I would be fair game to be kidnapped and killed, I am British and a woman So suggesting that it is because of Islam that it would be dangerous to go and shout anti Islamic cr*p in those countries is just utter nonsense. They hate everyone not in their gang with equal avengence.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

hmm. i think given the conduct of hamas in gaza since they got their territory returned to them (and hizbollah in south lebanon) you might forgive the israelis for not finding this argument terribly convincing nowadays.

Wow I must have missed the news report where Israel returned the occupied territories and retreated back to the agreed lines.

Neither side trusts the other and quite frankly neither side have shown themselves to be trustworthy. However Bob's comment that if Palestine stop the killing Israel will GRANT them their independence sort of smacks of the arrogance of the Israeli government. They are the occupiers so who are they to GRANT anything? Yes Palestine should stop the killing but Israel should get off their land and get back to the original land they were granted. Two wrongs are never going to make a right.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i don't think that's the point. the point is that their parents should not allow them to act in such a way, nor for others to encourage them to do so. if i encouraged my children to do so, i would expect to face some kind of legal sanction, i would have thought.

Both sides have kids that throw stones BB. I posted a video of Jewish children throwing stones at peace workers and the Israeli soldier doing nothing about it except watching and laughing but I did not suggest the children be beaten with a baseball bat. AND I didn't post it to say 'well Jewish kids do it', my suggestion is that the environment these children live in is creating this behaviour. Yes in the UK we would face legal action but we don't live in a war zone. The idea of defending killing or breaking bones of children that throw stones at tanks and soldiers is quite frankly outrageous.

Stop the bloody killing, stop teaching children to hate and have a football match in the street.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

but, as to the david irving link... "no axe to grind"?

WHAT? ARE YOU FECKING KIDDING ME? DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHO THIS GUY IS? i mean, seriously!!

LOL never heard of him, it was just a site that had the book on I was talking about. I have posted the same info from other sites including a Jewish one. It was a serious study and had some very good information and imo reliable. I obviously just picked the wrong site to link to So who is he?

Salaam
MW

[bob x]

When I was talking about an insignificant number I was talking about terrorists I believe - 0.01% is an insignificant number to me.

The polls that were cited showed 13% of British Muslims supporting suicide bombings. Of course it is far higher in other countries.

I cannot explain their views any more than I can explain why people turn to terrorism, I cannot speak for those people as I am not one of them but I will object if anyone suggests my faith has taught me their views.

What we are saying that THEIR faith has taught THEM their views. When you keep insisting that Islam has nothing to do with it, I tell you Islam has everything to do with it. Islam lacks any ethical core beyond "Do whatever you are told", and this is why it is so easily twisted.

not everyone that tries to get to the truth of this matter is an anti-semite

You don't show any signs of "trying to get to the truth": you look desparate to find somewhere else to point fingers, preferably at the Jews.

I would not suggest they set out to kill children specifically but clearly they do not care about avoiding them

I would agree with that.

However Bob's comment that if Palestine stop the killing Israel will GRANT them their independence sort of smacks of the arrogance of the Israeli government. They are the occupiers so who are they to GRANT anything?

Israel already has a state. Palestine does not. They are asking to be GIVEN what they have made themselves too weak to take. They chose the path of violence, and I will not hear them complain that the violence has gone badly for them, particularly when their violence has largely been pointless violence that could not possibly advance their own purposes in any way. If they are ever to have self-governance, it will be because they have finally shown some capacity to govern themselves. Preventing their citizens from attacking the neighbors is the very minimal responsibility of any government that wants recognition by other nations: when Baruch Goldstein started shooting at Palestinian worshippers, he was shot down and killed by Israeli soldiers, naturally, this being what any decent person would do; so, when someone tries to lob a rocket over the border, do the Palestinian security forces shoot him? Of course they should.

I posted a video of Jewish children throwing stones at peace workers and the Israeli soldier doing nothing about it except watching and laughing but I did not suggest the children be beaten with a baseball bat.

I would.

LOL never heard of him

You just happen to read neo-Nazi websites and cite them first?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

The polls that were cited showed 13% of British Muslims supporting suicide bombings. Of course it is far higher in other countries.

And the number of people that actually commit acts of violence is 0.01%. If people are to be arrested for their views the prisons are going to fill up very quickly. Even so that means 87% do not agree - that I would suggest is a significant number. I accept it doesnt make the 13% right but you can't blame our faith for teaching this if 87% do not agree.

The polls show that the British Muslims that support suicide bombings was with regard to Palestine, the same people do not agree with suicide bombings in general and objected to the 9/11 attacks etc. Even Saudi clerics have come out speaking against suicide bombings - until it comes to Palestine, because of the political situation. I am not trying to distance the faith from the issue, I accept a majority of Muslims support Palestine defending itself any way it can on a moral and religious basis (ie our faith grants us permission to defend ourselves against aggressors).

Now if Palestine had the weaponry to attack purely Israeli military positions I would support that very strongly, as I strongly disagree with the actions of the Israel government in recent years and the holding of the occupied territories. And I would support it both politically and religiously but only if it was army against army. My views have nothing to do with the religious beliefs of the people in Israel, this is what you seem to fail to understand.

Originally Posted by bob x

What we are saying that THEIR faith has taught THEM their views. When you keep insisting that Islam has nothing to do with it, I tell you Islam has everything to do with it. Islam lacks any ethical core beyond "Do whatever you are told", and this is why it is so easily twisted.

And I disagree with you very strongly. I read the Quran every day and see a strong ethical core, I also see nothing that incites me to violence unless in self defense. What I do see are the verses that forbid me from killing rom aggression, the verses that say if I kill one person it is as though I have killed all of mankind - you call that unethical? Any scripture can and has been used to fuel and incite hatred, that doesn't make the scripture wrong or unethical, it makes the followers that twist the faith wrong and unethical.

So why don't the other 87% agree? Are they lacking in faith or lacking in undersnding of that faith?

Originally Posted by bob x

You don't show any signs of "trying to get to the truth": you look desparate to find somewhere else to point fingers, preferably at the Jews.

Paranoia - interesting.

To point the finger for what? The Palestine/Israel situation - that is political and fault is on both sides as I have said repeatedly. The terrorists outside Palestine - that is a bunch of nutcases with a political agenda and a very twisted version of our faith. So what am I desperately trying to blame anyone else for?

If you choose to read the Torah and use the verses that speak of horrific violence to kill people, do I assume the Torah has no ethical core or do I accept you are a nutcase with an agenda?

Originally Posted by bob x

Israel already has a state. Palestine does not.

And why do Palestinians not have a state? Who are the occupiers? Isn't that sort of the point of this whole part of the debate?

Originally Posted by bob x

They chose the path of violence, and I will not hear them complain that the violence has gone badly for them, particularly when their violence has largely been pointless violence that could not possibly advance their own purposes in any way.

Unlike the violence of Israel which has given them exactly what they want. Yet now they complain that the other side are still using violence and won't shut up and go away quietly. Are you really so one sided in your views of the political situation or so devoid of feeling for humans not in your 'gang'.

Originally Posted by bob x

so, when someone tries to lob a rocket over the border, do the Palestinian security forces shoot him? Of course they should.

Yes they should but no they don't because they feel it is unfair to be kicked off their land, have people threatening to cut off their electricity and water, breaking multiple international laws and generally being a bloody bully. I do not defend rocket attacks on civilians but to dismiss the rights and grievances of the Palestinian people just adds to their feelings of isolation and desperation.

Originally Posted by bob x

You just happen to read neo-Nazi websites and cite them first?

No I just google a book I have read and post the link for the first site that comes up. Never seen the site before and never likely to see it again. When you pointed out it was an anti-semitic site I searched and posted alternative sites.

I apologise that I posted such a site and would not have done so had I known anything about its origins or views.

[Tao_Equus]

TABLE II: MILITARY AID TO ISRAEL
YEAR FMF ESF SUPPLEMENTALS
NADRATA
TOTAL
2001 $1,975,644,000 $838,000,000 -- -- $2,813,644,000
2002 $2,040,000,000 $720,000,000 -- $28,000,000 $2,788,000,000
2003 $2,086,350,000 $596,100,000 $1,000,000,000 -- $3,682,450,000
2004 $2,147,256,000 $477,168,000 -- -- $2,624,424,000
2005 $2,202,240,000 $357,120,000 $50,000,000 $210,000 $2,609,570,000
2006
(estimated)
$2,257,200,000 $273,600,000 -- $526,000 $2,531,326,000
2007
(requested)
$2,340,000,000 $120,000,000 -- $320,000 $2,460,320,000
TOTALS
2001-2007
$15,048,690,000 $3,381,988,000 $1,050,000,000 $29,056,000 $19,509,734,000

What percentage of this would allow the people of Gaza a standard of living decent enough to accept the "west" did have their interests at heart?

APPENDIX I: U.S.-SUPPLIED WEAPONRY IN
ISRAEL’S MILITARY INVENTORY
WEAPONS SYSTEM
NUMBER IN
INVENTORY
MANUFACTURER*
F-16 combat aircraft
236
110 fighters and 126
ground attack versions
Lockheed Martin (formerly
by General Dynamics)
F-15 combat aircraft 89 Boeing (formerly by
McDonnell Douglas)
A-4 attack aircraft 39 Northrop Grumman
(formerly Grumman)
C-130 transport plane 5 Lockheed Martin
C-47 cargo helicopter 11 Boeing, Allied Signal
Gulfstream G-550 transport 8 Gulfstream (now owned by
General Dynamics)
B-707 transport 7 Boeing
Cessna 206 utility aircraft 22 Cessna
TA-4 training aircraft 26 Northrop Grumman
AH-1 Cobra attack 55 Bell/Textron helicopter
AH-64 attack helicopter 40 Boeing, Lockheed
Martin/Northrop Grumman
(for AH-64D)
CH-53 Sea Stallion
attack helicopter
41 United Technologies
(Sikorsky unit)
Black Hawk support
helicopter (S-70 and UH-
60A)
48 United Technologies
(Sikorsky unit)
Utility helicopters
(Bell 206 and Bell 212)
77 Bell/Textron
Stinger man-portable air
defense missile
390 Raytheon (formerly by
General Dynamics, Hughes)
Redeye surface-to-air
missile
1,000
General Dynamics
Tactical Air-to-Ground
missiles (AGM)
Hellfire, Walleye,
Maverick, Standard
(numbers unknown)
Lockheed Martin/Boeing
(Hellfire); Raytheon
(Standard, Maverick);
Martin Marietta – now
Lockheed Martin
(Walleye);
Tactical Air-to-Air
Missiles
AMRAAM, Sparrow,
Sidewinder (numbers
Raytheon (AMRAAM,
Sparrow, Sidewinder)Air-to-Surface missiles,
PAC-2
48 Lockheed Martin/Vought,
Raytheon
Bombs (Joint Direct Attack
Munitions)
Numbers unknown Boeing
M-60 main battle tank 711 General Dynamics
M-113 armored personnel
carrier
6,131
United Defense, joint of
FMC and Harsco
(Purchased by BaE systems,
mid-2005)
M-109 self-propelled
155mm artillery
350 United Defense (purchased
by BaE systems, mid-2005)
MLRS multiple rocket
launcher
60 Lockheed Martin/Vought
Harpoon missiles sea-to-sea 444 Boeing (formerly by
McDonnell Douglas)

Remember this dont include anything they make themselves or buy elsewhere, (China, UK, Holland, France etc).

I can see why Israel feels so threatened by a few guys in a pick-up with a home-made rocket.

Apologists for Israel's treatment of the Palestinians need forced to live in Gaza for a year or 3.

Tao

[Muslimwoman]

OMG Tao if that is true it is totally outrageous and unacceptable. Do you have a link I can see where the info came from and try to verify it?

Okay don't both I found it, I checked on the authors of the report and they appear to have no particular axe to grind that I can find.

http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/...non.FINAL2.pdf

America - be ashamed, be very ashamed.

Something I have been looking up is the number of times the US has used it's veto to stop UN resolutions critical of Israel - shocking really and so blatant and our countries all sit back and go 'oh okay then Sir'.

[bob x]

And the number of people that actually commit acts of violence is 0.01%. If people are to be arrested for their views the prisons are going to fill up very quickly.

I didn't suggest imprisoning them all. All I am saying is that there are a lot of those supporters, even in Britain (they are a majority in many Muslim countries), and of course, that 0.01% could not exist at all without this huge support group.

I accept it doesnt make the 13% right but you can't blame our faith for teaching this if 87% do not agree

Yes I can. 13% is still a large number to have such views, and we only find percentages as small as 13 when what they are being "taught" is a mixture of Western ideas and Islam: when people are only taught Islam, the percentage is higher.

The polls show that the British Muslims that support suicide bombings was with regard to Palestine, the same people do not agree with suicide bombings in general

Yes, yes, you only hack babies into pieces and feed them to the dogs on very special occasions.

I accept a majority of Muslims support Palestine defending itself any way it can

What the Palestinians do does not "defend" any Palestinian in any manner whatsoever. This is a very basic point here.

I read the Quran every day and see a strong ethical core

Then show me. Way back when we started, you were going to tell me what positive things the Qur'an had to say to you, and never got around to it.

I also see nothing that incites me to violence unless in self defense

Or retaliation.

To point the finger for what? ...what am I desperately trying to blame anyone else for?

For the Holocaust.

And why do Palestinians not have a state?

The Egyptians suppressed the "Government of All Palestine" in 1951 because of the Palestinians' manifest incapacity for self-governance, and no Arabs ever considered letting the Palestinians have a state after that.

Who are the occupiers? Isn't that sort of the point of this whole part of the debate?

Israel controls, now. That is why there will be no Palestinian state until Israel accepts it. Before 1967 it would have been up to Egypt and/or Jordan.

Yet now they complain that the other side are still using violence and won't shut up and go away quietly.

They don't just "complain" about it, they act to minimize the chances of the Palestinian violence injuring Israelis. That is, of course, what a government's job is, to protect the citizenry. They built a wall because the wall saves Israeli lives, and they are not particularly interested, or interested only to much lesser extent, in whether it inconveniences or damages the lives of Palestinians. When Palestinians, similarly, start to act in such a way as to minimize the damages to Palestinians, instead of just to maximize damages to Israelis, there will be hope that they can be trusted to govern themselves. Until that point, they cannot. And who is to judge when it is that the Palestinians can be trusted? Not me, and not you: the only opinion that matters is the opinion of the Israelis, because they are the ones who control the territory at present.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

Yes I can. 13% is still a large number to have such views, and we only find percentages as small as 13 when what they are being "taught" is a mixture of Western ideas and Islam: when people are only taught Islam, the percentage is higher.

So ends our discussion. When you cannot accept that if 87% of people (who are mainly from Arabic and Indian cultures and about half of which do not even speak the english language to any degree beyond basic conversation) do not learn this from our faith, then your bias and bigotry is beyond comprehension to me.

Salaam

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

So rather than name call tell me where my knowledge is wrong, point me at reliable information that can possibly change how I see things. This is not directed solely at you BB just a general remark.

a good point well made.

When I was talking about an insignificant number I was talking about terrorists I believe - 0.01% is an insignificant number to me. Their actions are not insignificant by any stretch of the imagination but their numbers are in comparison to the whole - as a representation of our faith.

i think we've got an issue with statistics here. there are 1bn muslims, right? so, if as you say, 0.01% is the number of terrorists, that translates into 100,000 actual people worldwide. how many iraqi insurgents, taleban fighters, iraqi revolutionary guard, mahdi army, hizbollah commandos and so on would you say there are? i suspect that just the taleban have more people in their army than that. so, for a start, i think your percentage is questionable. secondly, a percentage is a comparative tool. there are 1,000,000 muslims (as far as i know) in the UK. if, as has been reliably attested by reputable polling done on behalf of channel 4, 13% of them support suicide bombing and terrorism against jews, that's 130,000 people, as i have already pointed out. if only 0.01% of them actually *act*, that's 13 people. that number is almost certainly too small for the UK. even if it's 500 people, which is far less than has been suggested by the UK government, that's still 0.05%, which is *five times more* than you're saying. extrapolate that worldwide and you get 500,000 terrorists, against a *world jewish population* of 14,000,000, which means each terrorist has to kill 28 jews. with suicide bombing i reckon this is pretty possible. now, perhaps these numbers might be a bit silly, but you must be able to see from this just how un-comforting your statistic actually is considering i live in london in close proximity to large numbers of muslims, which means on any given day at least one of the 20 muslims i've come into contact with wouldn't object if one of their co-religionists killed me. now call me mr paranoid, but i think that's a little too much. and as bob puts it:

All I am saying is that there are a lot of those supporters, even in Britain (they are a majority in many Muslim countries), and of course, that 0.01% could not exist at all without this huge support group.

furthermore:

As for Shia being 10% of the whole I have to agree to disagree, 10% to me is a small percentage -it may be a large number of people because of the number of Muslims worldwide but as a percentage it is small.

ok, my objection to your use of percentages notwithstanding, if you look here:

Major Branches of Religions

you'll see that shi'ites make up 11.2% of world islam. you'll also see that there are about 8 1/2 times as many of them as there are of jews. considering that the largest shi'ite countries are both pretty anti-jewish i don't think that reassures me terribly much.

If you said Zionists make up 10% of the Jewish nation I would also call that a small percentage.

umph, i think that depends what you think a zionist is. there are lots of different types of zionism, from religious to secular, from right-wing to left-wing, from vague identification with other members of your ethnic group to utopian, messianic idealism. not all jews are zionists, some are downright anti (although almost none are as bad as neturei karta) - they're, ironically, almost exactly as representative of judaism as your 0.01% terrorists. i'd call myself a zionist, for example, but i would almost certainly mean something different by that from what most would assume, even other zionists. as it is i'll settle for "thinks there ought to be a jewish state of some sort in the general area of israel and doesn't want people to kill his auntie for living there, but doesn't see how this precludes a palestinian state, but frankly doesn't think much of nation-states as a concept in general, they're soooo C19th".

I will object if anyone suggests my faith has taught me their views.

i'm not suggesting that - but i would definitely suggest that someone's faith which claims (although it really substantively isn't) to be the same as yours has definitely taught them theirs.

I accept that anti-semites will jump on this information and use it for their nasty minded purposes but does that mean it should be ignored?

ah, there's the rub. i don't know. i'm for free speech, but i don't think that translates into the right to shout "fire!" in a crowded theatre.

And for those that think I am one lone fruitcase voice I suggest you do some research, millions of Muslims feel the same way.

ok, but very few of them appear to be influential clerics, unfortunately. irshad manji and ali eteraz do not make a "consensus of the scholars", hence my argument with you-know-who in which i was very much in your corner.

I nearly fell off my seat when a Saudi cleric wrote to bin Laden to tell him he was acting in an unIslamic way after the 9/11 attacks - a Wahabbi - blow me down with a feather.

indeed - and it only took him 6 years to leap into action, if it's the bloke i'm thinking of. and in any case, i think if this guy can get a letter to bin laden, it was his duty to humanity to give it to the americans to deliver.

Are you joking? That is way off topic but the British have a lot to answer for during WWII both in actions but particularly in lack of actions at time. In the end we did the right thing but not for the reasons people like to think. Hell we invented concentration camps long before the Nazi's introduced them.

i know all about the boer war *and* bevingrad, internment on cyprus, etc. goodness knows i'm not an uncritical admirer of anyone, but if it wasn't for the british - and the americans and russians - the nazis would certainly have won and where would cock BB be then, poor thing?

Oh now come on BB 'islamic concept of "hudna"'. Find me the word hudna in the Quran. If I can work out it isn't there I would think Israel could do the same.

er... just because a technical term isn't in the Qur'an doesn't mean it isn't valid. the term "prosbul" isn't in the Torah, yet it's perfectly valid.

I am ex military BB, I know what these weapons can do.

fair enough, but i am ex IT and i know what happens when "nothing can possibly go wrong with the system". certainly - as i think bob pointed out - the israelis aren't as concerned as they could be with accuracy. on the other hand (and without excusing them) from what i know of the israeli military their policy is "we'd rather someone else got killed than our own people".

But for Israel when you look at the numbers for the dead children in just one year compared to the number that died by accidental fire in Ireland over a 30 year period I am left with serious questions.

and the main question should be "did the irish use their own children as human shields and so-called martyrs?"

I do not want to see one more dead child on my tv screen, be they Muslim, Jew, Christian or whatever.

i don't want to see one more dead human on my tv screen.

Erm are you not doing the same thing above BB? I talk about the number of children killed by Israel and you talk about the US & UK in Iraq. Perhaps it is a natural reaction when faced with something unpleasant to say yes but look at that?

oh, you're probably right, but i was talking about supposed smart bombs and the only example i can think of is the US & UK armies going on about how "clinical" and "surgical" their "strikes" are when clearly the language is coming from PR and marketing. i object to that too, as well as ghastly euphemisms like "collateral damage".

Wow I must have missed the news report where Israel returned the occupied territories and retreated back to the agreed lines.

it was called a) the gaza disengagement and b) the withdrawal from lebanon. in both cases it suited hamas and hizbollah to fall back on, respectively, "every inch of palestine must be liberated" (which includes tel aviv, by the way) and "the sheba'a farms must be liberated" (when in fact according to the UN they actually belong to syria), so frankly, don't give me that. by any light that is getting something back that you wanted - and was there any corresponding change? noooooo, not one iota. just move the rockets up to the new border and off you go.

I posted a video of Jewish children throwing stones at peace workers and the Israeli soldier doing nothing about it except watching and laughing but I did not suggest the children be beaten with a baseball bat.

if the children you refer to were those of the settlers then they are perfectly happy to throw stones at the soldiers and call them nazis when it suits them. that's not a terribly good example i'm afraid. this is a pattern, you know, apparent behaviour that is supposed to show religious jews to be really great mates with muslims, or really mean to non-religious jews and it always turns out to mean something completely different to me than it appears to to you. the issue between the settlers and the state has yet to be resolved and it is my hope that this can be done with out a civil war, in case you were unaware of this.

Originally Posted by bob x

Islam lacks any ethical core beyond "Do whatever you are told", and this is why it is so easily twisted.

bob, this is way out of line. i suggest you moderate your tone, generalise less and avoid the condemnatory rhetoric, especially given you are not, unless i have been misinformed, a great authority on islamic jurisprudence. dial it down, or any hope of actual dialogue here is doomed.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[bob x]

Muslimwoman has already indicated that she wants no more dialogue. I will not continue to argue with her, but neither will I withdraw the statement "Islam lacks any ethical core beyond "Do whatever you are told" " which is entirely accurate: the Qur'an contains some good ethical advice, and some dubious advice, and some I consider very bad, but a Muslim cannot distinguish the good from the bad, because all of it is based on "whatever you are told, that is from God"; if someone comes out with a different interpretation of the Qur'an (which is easy to do, since it is written in an archaic dialect that no-one properly understands anymore), a Muslim cannot say "If the Qur'an says THAT, then the Qur'an is wrong".

[wil]

Originally Posted by bob x

a Muslim cannot say "If the Qur'an says THAT, then the Qur'an is wrong".

Namaste Bob,

What if I replaced Christian and Bible in your statement....what would most Christian churches /bible thumpers have to say?

[bob x]

I have an equally low opinion of Christians of that type.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by bob x

I have an equally low opinion of Christians of that type.

And me of Bob X's of that type.