What's the real measure of checking a Holy Book?

[dailogue is the best]

Originally Posted by nativeastral

hello

Hello

infallibility of the 'sacred word' inevitably did lose credibility with the rise of western science ironically begun by believers trying to prove the rationality of the faith based religions;

yeah, you are right. There were rise in interpreting Holy Books on the basis of Western Science in order to prove its divine source.

nature was still described as g#ds handiwork and science still operated under the 'divine' paradigm

The question is: Can science (reason/mind) get to God? Is science (visual proof) the right tool for getting to the truth?


yet as 'the age of reason' spawned the reaction of romanticism and transcendentalism, and liberalism spawned fundamentalism, so scientific materialism is meeting the challenge of pan-psychists and others studying the enigma of consciousness. yin must eventually turn yang, and back again. neither scriptural writings nor scientific theories are absolute, are they?

It is up to faith, I think, brother. For me, scriptual writing are absolute. What I think reinforces that feeling is to undergo a spiritual experience. Then, the experience revives one's spirit/heart and he/she begins to recieve guidance and light that cant be presented by other means...

pquote] it would not surprise me that most physicists and mathematicians dealing in the 'magic of numbers' have an inkling of something other than our usual sense of 'natural'.

Could you explain more, nativeasrtal?

religion has always been involved with metaphysics, science cannot help but be too despite early protestations to the contrary. A.N. whitehead, a process theologian in the 1920's worried how the evolving relationship between religion and science may determine the future of the human race [after WW1 before WW2, extreme materialism, consumerism and lack of love and stewardship of Gaia or 'mother earth'].

I think science and religion can live together but obly if science admits its limitation and shortness to know the divine. It is sufficient for scientists to examine man, earth, and heaven to prove the existence of an amazing creator....

theism has been both a cloak and dagger of warfare no more or less than athiesim eg communism; it was about power over, justified belief in exclusivity of truth so called over the 'other' as 'other'.

The difference is very big,nativeastral.

While athiesm and communism skin man from spirituality and does him a horrible unjustice by limiting him in bare pysical needs, and prevent him from achieving perfection, and connecting God, theism works to purify man from the animalistic whims inside him, and works by him to spread justice and love inside and outside.

Those who think that they are created in vain and for no purpose are not as the same as those who believe that God's wisdom exists everywhere...

so reading holy books outwith the context that it was written and calling it fixed immutable truths which glorified killings of other humans is not holy in my book

Nor is it in my Holy Book (unless it is for self defense). And I dont think that one of your knowledge believe in stereotypes and make prejudices...

[dailogue is the best]

Originally Posted by GlorytoGod

I think you are talking about good science, which I am all for, however not all science is good, bad science really sucks and there is a lot of it about !

Well, Gloryto God, now you are up to a task. I ve found out many Biblical statements that are contardicting science. I can give you examples if you want. By the way, it is good science. Now what are you going to do?

well faith and hopefully revelation, but its all purely subjective.

That's why, it is very special for one to undergo spiritual experience to strenghten his/her faith, and keep praying for God to lighten for us the right path..

Faith is for those who truly see. Those who plainly meditate in God's creation: man, earth, and heaven..Those who truly see, they know there is a god behind all that. And here starts one's mission towards Him. And God will never ver let down anyone who looks for Him. Just sincercely pray, and you will see...

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

The question is: Can science (reason/mind) get to God? Is science (visual proof) the right tool for getting to the truth?

No. Science cannot reveal what is not there to find. Science can however test the claims of faith, and does. There is as yet no physical evidence for god.

But neither can Faith find that truth. Faith can only find faith. Faith requires science to prove truth for it to be truth. Hence the desperately clumsy efforts of those in religion that realise this to tack on scientific credibility.

[GlorytoGod]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

Well, Gloryto God, now you are up to a task. I ve found out many Biblical statements that are contardicting science. I can give you examples if you want. By the way, it is good science. Now what are you going to do?

I have already told I'm not that fussed, science will eventually catch up

I am not great scholar of the Bible but I can read it in english and attempt to comprehend and apply the wisdom and truth it contains, as for science I have no in depth scientific knowledge so anything beyond rudimentary science I have to take in faith

That's why, it is very special for one to undergo spiritual experience to strenghten his/her faith, and keep praying for God to lighten for us the right path..

Amen to that

Faith is for those who truly see. Those who plainly meditate in God's creation: man, earth, and heaven..Those who truly see, they know there is a god behind all that. And here starts one's mission towards Him. And God will never ver let down anyone who looks for Him. Just sincercely pray, and you will see...

You might want to look at Pslam 19

1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

BibleGateway.com - PassageLookup: Psalm 19

[dailogue is the best]

Originally Posted by GlorytoGod

I have already told I'm not that fussed, science will eventually catch up

I am not great scholar of the Bible but I can read it in english and attempt to comprehend and apply the wisdom and truth it contains, as for science I have no in depth scientific knowledge so anything beyond rudimentary science I have to take in faith..

I dont know what to consider it: a good answer or a way to avoid confrontation...I am joking..it is a good answer..Yet, we cannot deny that when science contradicts our Holy Book, it arises in us discomfort...

I think that verses which talk about God's creation be it man, earth and heaven should be examined by science so that science conforms the divine source of the Books...

The verses you provided, GlorytoGod, is an invitation by God to meditate, examine and anlyze (even with science) His creation. That's why, scientists, and those who know are more aware of the presence of God, and more attached to Him. God says: "

[35:27] Do you not realize that GOD sends down from the sky water, whereby we produce fruits of various colors? Even the mountains have different colors; the peaks are white, or red, or some other color. And the ravens are black.
[35:28] Also, the people, the animals, and the livestock come in various colors. This is why the people who truly reverence GOD are those who are knowledgeable. GOD is Almighty, Forgiving.

[dailogue is the best]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

No. Science cannot reveal what is not there to find. Science can however test the claims of faith, and does.

Do you mean that we can use science to examine what is there in the Books?

There is as yet no physical evidence for god.

How?!! Cant we consider His creation a physical evidence of God?! Your posts are physical evidence of you (your characteristics mainly). Do you you get what I want to say, Tao?

But neither can Faith find that truth. Faith can only find faith.

Well, Tao, this is not the issue. It is rather a question of what leads one to faith. Or, in other words, what deepens one's faith. Some has faith that is inherited from ancesstors. A shallow, taken for gratnted faith...

The issue, Tao, is that the spiritual experience one undergoes to deepen his faith and meets the divine/the world of unseen...to remove the clouds from one's heart, and recieve inspiration.. In other words, Tao, to revive, purify and cleanse heart...

Heart can find faith.. That's why, sufis who undergo spiritual experiences are called "the knowledgebale of God"..Their hearts are purified from any other attachment to anybody/anything.. Their hearts are present with God all the time...They are sincere lovers...Hence, their hearts recieve pure truth that cant be achieved by another way...

What I want to say is that: Can heart replace mind in order to get to God and connect Him?! Mind is a tool to prove the existence of an amazing creator, and heart is the right tool to get to that creator, know about Him, and connect Him...

Faith requires science to prove truth for it to be truth.

yeah, I agree, mainly truth related to God's creation in all its manifestation...

[Radunzel]

Well id say the Nobel Quran has science down to a T so ermmm
id say chronology.. The Pentauch then Torah, The Gospels then Quran. im sorry for my weasel words

it makes sense that Jews wouldnt want to believe in Yehoshua PBUH.. if you put all your money on black, its easier to say i was right all along if you dont like the message, then the glaring omission that 80% of world religions believe in Jesus/Isa. PBUH

Christians Made him better than he was and christianity is preferable to most people because of its is the easiest of the abrahamic fold because of the faith over actions viewpoint.. The Quran is well aware of this fact.

Then you could argue why then am i not bhahi.. because im not a shia occultist and am a hadith rejector =P