What's wrong with the Jewish God?

[dauer]

Dondi,

rabbinical Judaism goes by the Talmud, which contains the Oral Torah, and rabbinical Judaism comprises almost all of Judaism today. There is a very tiny group, called the karaites, which formed that ignores the Talmud and tries to only go by the Torah. Their practices can vary a bit too, because the Torah isn't always clear on what to do. At other times it is clear that they have their own minhagim, their own customs, which they carry out that go beyond the words of the Torah.

Of course, I would dispute with you that the written Torah hasn't changed. It certainly hasn't changed since the masorites got to it, at least in the way it's written, but then again our understanding of it has changed based on the way we understand the world.

And in the sense that the Torah hasn't changed, we can say the same about the Talmud, after its compilation ended, besides for one point in history (after the invention of the printing press I believe) when there was a censorship that happened of some material.

How can we determine which are the clear commandments of God?

It's not so much about what's a commandment and what's not as it is about how the commandment is understood and put into action. That's what the later texts do. These are the 613 mitzvot:

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

And just in response to something earlier there are a few (although it's very very rare) mitzvot that come from the Oral Torah. One that comes to mind is the lighting of candles before shabbos. Strictly according to the Torah, nothing should even be burning on Shabbos. Then when we get to Nach, to the prophets and writings, Shabbos is already being reinterpreted as a much more joyous event. So when we get to the early rabbis, to hazal, they interpret the language as only meaning we shouldn't light fires on Shabbos. In order to enhance the joy, there is a commandment in the oral Torah to light candles before Shabbos, which, before electric lighting, would essentially allow people to see and celebrate into the night. So you can see the type of change that happened, and one that was actually started not with the rabbis, but in Nach.

Dauer

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by aburaees

So when a Muslim challenges a Jew over the changes that have taken place in Judaism, in most cases it's like the pot calling the kettle black.

*claps loudly*. and, furthermore:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/...pted-5265.html

b'shalom

bananabrain

[inhumility]

Originally Posted by Dondi

As a Christian, I've talked to and debated with Muslims over my faith and understand that Muslim does not embrace the concept that Jesus is the Son of God or God in the flesh, nor is God a Trinity.
But the Jews worship One God (Deut. 6:4) and do not believe in Jesus as God either.
So I'm a bit confused. Can you point out what contentions you have with believing in the Jewish God? Thank you.

Dondi! You are right that Jewish God and the Muslim God are one and the same. The apparent nomenclature does not matter much. The Zoroastrians are also monotheists as also the Sikhs. All the above believe in ONESNESS of God. The difference is not here; the difference is in the attributes of God of these religions.
If God is one and there is no doubt about that and God does have personal relationship with his pious and righteous men called Prophets or Messengers and He talked with them and sent his messages of love to mankind through them for guidance of them and let Himself known through them. Talking with his pious men for greater benefit of the human beings is a permanent attribute of God that cannot be changed. If one denies even one of His prophets who has been sent by God; this arrogant behavior of that person, tantamount to denying God and is not acceptable to God. Since all the attributes of God are interlinked; denial of one attribute results in denial of other attributes one by one. Say if God does not listen to prayers, then God is devoid of hearing. If He does not hear for a long time and does not speak to His pious men then probably He is dead for all practical purposes and God cannot be born as He cannot die. So on and so forth.
Sending his prophets is His permanent attribute. God sent Jesus according to this attribute of Him for guidance of the Jews. They did not accept him rather put him on Cross and rebuked his mother. This is neither acceptable to God nor to Muslims. Jews must accept truthful prophet-hood of Jesus. It is not a prerogative of Jews to accept or deny Jesus and punish him for being a messenger of God, if God sent him he has to be accepted. All Muslims therefore accept all the prophets of God including Jesus in whatever part of earth the prophet may be, past or present, dead or alive, he has to be accepted.
Similarly God sent Muhammad for guidance of the humans, it is not their choice to accept or refuse him. The Jews and Christians have to believe in his prophet-hood. It does not mean that whoever rejects him is to be killed or forcibly converted to Islam. That is against the clear verdict of Quran. Also this is only a difference of faith and not necessarily a cause of enmity. If one does not believe in God, if at all he will be punished by God, so if one does not believe in the prophet-hood of Jesus or Muhammad he cannot be punished by any human being, if at all mere non-acceptance of a prophet does not entail any punishment from men but from God. But the opponents of prophets, alas, never believed in the democratic norms and freedom of speech. They opposed the prophets chosen by God, tooth and nail, tried either to kill them or to expel them from their lands if they do not bow to their wishes and showed utmost animosity. This is what they did to Moses, Jonah, Jesus and Muhammad and they spared none. Thus they wrought wrath of God. Some hardened, stiff necked radical Muslim clergy may believe forcible conversion of the non-believers into the fold of Islam; just like the hardened, stiff necked and radical Jewish clergy of the time of Jesus but that is equally wrong. The same is the case of those Christians who opened the door of a holocaust against the Jews.
Present strife among the Jews, Christians and Muslims is more political and economic rather than religious. What the religion has to do with the political boundaries of the countries? Religion wins hearts and souls not the lands.
Wel this is the view of an Ahmadi a faith in Islam,others may differ with it.But truth and peace should prevail.
Salam and thanks

[Dondi]

Ok. So, what is the fundamental difference between the teachings of Moses, Jesus, and Muhammed? If God is unchanging, wouldn't the message be the same for all His prophets?

[bananabrain]

God sent Jesus according to this attribute of Him for guidance of the Jews. They did not accept him rather put him on Cross and rebuked his mother. This is neither acceptable to God nor to Muslims. Jews must accept truthful prophet-hood of Jesus. It is not a prerogative of Jews to accept or deny Jesus and punish him for being a messenger of God, if God sent him he has to be accepted.

excuse *me*, but i don't actually give a flying arse. jews don't have to accept jesus's prophethood, or messiahship, or anything other than him having existed at around that time. we are not obliged to agree that G!D sent him and, frankly, whether we were rude to his mother or not is neither here nor there. our relationship with G!D is not conditional upon our relationship with christianity, islam or their respective founders. we do not require rectification, confirmation, legitimisation or anything else from them, except that they leave us alone and STOP TRYING TO CONVERT US AND OUR CHILDREN. is there any part of this that is less than clear?

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Karimarie]

Originally Posted by inhumility

God sent Jesus according to this attribute of Him for guidance of the Jews. They did not accept him rather put him on Cross and rebuked his mother.

The Romans recorded who they executed pretty thoroughly. There was never a person named "Yeshua". Moreover, the "Jews" that appear in the Christian scriptures typically are gross parody or satire of what Jews are and what their behaviours are as a group of people.

Originally Posted by inhumility

This is neither acceptable to God nor to Muslims. Jews must accept truthful prophet-hood of Jesus.

OK... Why?

Originally Posted by inhumility

It is not a prerogative of Jews to accept or deny Jesus and punish him for being a messenger of God, if God sent him he has to be accepted.

Therein lies a different question: Did God send him? Considering that he apparently advocated a number of Jewish and non-Jewish things, I'm inclined to believe the answer is no.

Originally Posted by inhumility

All Muslims therefore accept all the prophets of God including Jesus in whatever part of earth the prophet may be, past or present, dead or alive, he has to be accepted.

Not all 'prophets' can be accepted as legitimate. In principle, anyone can have a vision and claim to be a prophet. Many 'prophets' have aspired to this title, for example:

Aleister Crowley
The Oracle at Delphi
Joseph Smith
David Berg
Sun Myung Moon
Jehovah's Witnesses
Nostradamus
And many, many others...

The fact is, a person cannot be legitimately termed a 'prophet' based on his or her own testimony. Several people, claiming the title of 'prophet' argued to the Jews the Messiahship of one Shabbatai Tzvi... He ultimately converted to Islam and accomplished none of the Messianic prophecies. Are the 'prophets' actually worthy of that title? No, their prophecy was false, thus they were false prophets.

In the case of Jewish prophecies regarding the Messiah and his role in the world, acceptance thereof is based on faith in God and God's providence. They could have made it all up I suppose, but that is, indeed, a matter of faith to trust that it is valid.

Conversely, adding Jesus or Mohammed to the list of Prophets is simply a matter of faith without basis in any verifiable set of facts. Prooftexts are bupkis because they presume existing belief--That is, they are circular logic. Thus, the only way to determine a faith and qualify it for a particular person is to examine its teachings and decide whether or not they are rational.

The teachings of Christianity were and are not rational in the context of Jewish thought and thus were rejected. Conversely, Christian thought was mainly based on Greek and Roman thought, which explains why it seemed rational to those peoples. Islam was presented to be rational to Muslims, so it was adopted by them. Interpreting religions and their validity or lack thereof requires a relative amount of context. Without context, the religion's essential concepts are just slightly beyond the grasp of the learner's mind.

Thus, for Jesus to have been a legitimate prophet, his prophethood would have to have existed within the context of Jewish history, tradition and law. Perhaps it did... But Pauline Christianity didn't and thus was nonsense to the Jews, leading to most Jews not converting.

[Zaakir]

kaimarie, you said something about along the lines about the characteristics of jesus. lets say that what the jews were expecting from the messiah is true, when i was looking into judaism, and islam as my futre religion, i came across an amzing fact, the jews said their messiah would be a warrior and lead them to victory, and that people would return to their homeland (i think tehy used egypt in their prophecies) but anyway in islam we know and beleive jesus a.s will return and these qualities will be in him. he will lead the beleivers into victory, as a warrior.

also pauline christianity was nonsense, to me anyway, and did not come about till many many years after jesus ascended into the heavens

[Zaakir]

dondi, you said soemthing about god unchanging and messages from the messengers will not change, it hasnt, god brought to people always the message, there is no god but god. certain aspects of life were brought down at varying times, because god knows what is right. just as you might not have kids for years even though trying, god does what He does for a reason. also in christianity it seems taht your point can be taken sarcastic, becasue, the messege you have of jesus a.s is different form every other prophet. all the poepel before jesus therefore jews, as tehy called themselves, beleived in one god and one god only, never would they blaspheme Him by using partners, whereas christians beleiev jesus is god, so in this case the message has done a U turn

[bananabrain]

the jews said their messiah would be a warrior and lead them to victory, and that people would return to their homeland (i think they used egypt in their prophecies)

actually, zaakir, it's a bit more complicated than that. however, the homeland that we were always going to return to was the land of israel. any metaphorical use of "egypt" must depend on the context. it might refer to somewhere we had to leave, or somewhere we were enslaved or oppressed, or it might refer to egypt as a powerful enemy, usually in terms of what "pharaoh" might be described as doing.

jewish eschatology is notoriously complex, contradictory and controversial. it is very difficult to say much about it that is beyond debate.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Zaakir

dondi, you said soemthing about god unchanging and messages from the messengers will not change, it hasnt, god brought to people always the message, there is no god but god. certain aspects of life were brought down at varying times, because god knows what is right. just as you might not have kids for years even though trying, god does what He does for a reason. also in christianity it seems taht your point can be taken sarcastic, becasue, the messege you have of jesus a.s is different form every other prophet. all the poepel before jesus therefore jews, as tehy called themselves, beleived in one god and one god only, never would they blaspheme Him by using partners, whereas christians beleiev jesus is god, so in this case the message has done a U turn

What do you consider Jesus' message that differs from Moses?

[inhumility]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Ok. So, what is the fundamental difference between the teachings of Moses, Jesus, and Muhammed? If God is unchanging, wouldn't the message be the same for all His prophets?

I am an Ahmadi a faith in Islam, which is the centre of all Revealed Religions. I believe that all Revealed Religions were truthful in their origin but with the passage of time when humans forgot the pristine message from God, the message was revived by God. So in this way logically and morally there is no difference between a true Jew, a true Christian, and a true Muslim or with any other label.Fundamentally teachings of Moses,Jesus and Muhammad are the same with no difference altogether. Truth has to be respected and believed whatever its name.The message is the same for all prophets,right,to believe in One God and to follow prophet/s chosen by God, in short.
Thanks

[inhumility]

Originally Posted by Karimarie

Did God send him (ie Jesus)?
Considering that he apparently advocated a number of Jewish and non-Jewish things, I'm inclined to believe the answer is no.
Not all 'prophets' can be accepted as legitimate. In principle, anyone can have a vision and claim to be a prophet. Many 'prophets' have aspired to this title, The fact is, a person cannot be legitimately termed a 'prophet' based on his or her own testimony. Are the 'prophets' actually worthy of that title?
Thus, for Jesus to have been a legitimate prophet, his prophethood would have to have existed within the context of Jewish history, tradition and law. Perhaps it did... But Pauline Christianity didn't and thus was nonsense to the Jews, leading to most Jews not converting.

Did God send him (i.e. Jesus)?
This is a valid question, true, which has to be researched truthfully, sincerely and God-fearing arguments given to prove that Jesus was a true prophet of God. In Old Testament God revealed several criteria to verify a true prophet. Yes, verification in principle would and should be made from the words spoken by God and revealed to Moses and not from the writings of the clever clergy who never received even a word from God and also it should not be judged from the manmade sources of Jewish history, tradition and law which could be interpreted ambiguously. God’s men must be judged by the word of God.
It is true that when Jesus disappeared from the scene of crucifixion, Paul self-appointed himself as his epistle and traded pristine teachings of Jesus with pagan Greco-Roman mythology but that is not Jesus’ fault. Jesus remains truthful prophet of God chosen by Him when verified from the principles as mentioned above. It is sinful not to believe Jesus as true prophet of God.
Thanks

[inhumility]

Originally Posted by Zaakir

the jews said their messiah would be a warrior and lead them to victory, and that people would return to their homeland

The Jews who in the time of Moses refused to fight on his side with the enemy,later when they tasted the rule of David and Solomon ,when that liesure time was lost they dreamt that the Mosiach would return them their lost glory.This was their wishful thinking and not Word of God.Prophets of God are not chosen by God on wishful thinking of a people,they come for guidance and not to wage wars.This is a mistake of the Jews needs to be corrected.
Thanks

[bananabrain]

in this way logically and morally there is no difference between a true Jew, a true Christian, and a true Muslim or with any other label.

except that you appear to think that you have the right to define this truth for the rest of us.

God-fearing arguments given to prove that Jesus was a true prophet of God.In Old Testament God revealed several criteria to verify a true prophet.

but jesus does not meet these criteria - or at least we have no way to know if he did because we have no reliable reports of things he actually said and did apart from manifestly partisan sources.

This is a mistake of the Jews needs to be corrected.

i find it actually quite chilling that you think you are in a position to identify our "mistakes" that need "correcting". this is nothing but arrogant, self-aggrandising nonsense.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Zaakir]

thyanks inhumility, and what you said before where you mentioned your ahmadi...as a sunni muslim, i think the same, word changed, as i beleive was a test, and we were all given the glorious Quran as perfection, an the prophet s.a.w