When does a baby count as a living being?

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Thank you for resurrecting this thread. On Brian's behalf, his beautiful little girl was born some time ago, over a year now I think. The remaining details I will leave for him.

As for the original question, "When does a baby count as a living being?," has anybody here from the states actually taken a look into Rowe v. Wade? What the judges decided, and why, including the English law precedent they based their decision on? Anybody here familiar with the term "quickening?" Or how abortion was not intended, per Rowe, beyond the condition of the quickened fetus?

Hmmm?

But let us not turn this thread into a commentary on abortion. The question remains as when does a baby count as a living being?

Baha`i's are told that the soul is part of the body at conception. Abortion is not allowed as a means of birth control, but when the health of the mother is the question then it is a personal choice to be soberly evaluated and the decision is between the mother and the doctor.

Regards,
Scott

[Tao_Equus]

[quote=taijasi]

Many ethical questions certainly remain, and the abortion debate is not the false dichotomy that is usually presented

On that vein could you give me a brief insight into what the Bhuddist veiw is on abortion and how it effects the waiting spirit please?

[truthseeker]

Why would one not be a living being until born? Would it be because the fetus is dependant on the mother for nourishment? If that is the case, then I would have to agree with bgraugach's joke about one not being a living being until graduated from med or law school. Bob X had a really good point that I had never considered, which puts the Buddhist view right on the nail. Strange how it takes different perspectives to bring a full picture to light.

[taijasi]

Regarding a more conventional, or exoteric view on spirits waiting for incarnation - whether Buddhistic or Christian - I'm not sure there are any clear teachings on this subject. I'm sure someone can dig up a sutra somewhere, and possibly there could be some Old Testament quotes ... but I come at things from the perspective of an esoteric Buddhist, if at all.

From that angle - and as verified by clairvoyant research - the fetus grows from the moment of conception, and the Soul takes hold of the new physical, astral & mental bodies at approx. 4 1/2 months, or in the exact middle of pregnancy. However, even until the moment of birth there is not a full "appropriation" of the vehicles, and esotericists maintain that technically the next 21 years are spent continuing (or recapitulating) this appropriation (~7 years per vehicle).

The way the subject of this thread is worded, it's almost a no-brainer .... certainly a baby is a living organism at the moment of conception - during the combining of egg & sperm. These, separately, are also living; they're just single cells. Even individual cells, esoterically, are ensouled, in the sense that there is an `animating principle,' albeit very, very simple (and certainly not a soul in the sense of an individual, or individualized entity). Since this is what I think we mean by "living being" when referring to the baby, I'd have to stick with the esoteric view as related.

Buddhists speak of skandhas, or `personality attributes' - which is certainly what esotericists believe as well, maintaining that the physical, astral & mental bodies have gradually dissolved and been vacated following the end of the last incarnation (the passing through the Bardo). Some Buddhist sects, such as the Pure Land folks, emphasize birth (technically as a Deva) in what Theosophists (and Hindus) call Devachan ... but this is only an interval between lives - and esoterically it signifies the Soul out of incarnation, and closest to its Divine Parent, or source.

After visiting Devachan, which could equate with a few moments of "time," or last several years ... the Soul returns to birth by the gradual descent through denser & denser matter (something science can one day verify), associating itself with its future personality vehicles from even before the moment of conception, under the guidance or parameters of the Lords of Karma (Lipika). An actual physical connection may not be made for several more months, and finalized until birth, but the Soul has its prior existence in the Heaven-worlds before & apart from birth, as maintained by Neo-Platonists and the Eastern doctrines alike. From a certain spiritual perspective it could even be said that several future incarnations are foreseen (in broad brushstrokes, though not in every minute detail), although there is less clarity as a soul progresses spiritually, since a given lifetime can vary greatly in how much spiritual work is accomplished.

These are just some things that occur to me before my morning cuppa joe. After that, who knows what crazy sequence of neurons might - or might not - fire.

andrew

[Tao_Equus]

Thanks Andrew,
So does that mean the the physical vehicle is unimportant and thus expendable? And so abortion no real sin?


Regards

TE

[wil]

So does that mean the the physical vehicle is unimportant and thus expendable? And so abortion no real sin?

I think that is really the interesting part. If most of those that believe that are pro life believe that our souls are headed to a better place and this is a lesser place...than what is the issue? Seems it may just be a short cut.

Of course that would include murder of all kinds not to be 'evil' meerly sending one to ones God. 'Course that is a 'nother thread.

[Tao_Equus]

Cool new avatar Wil

[DrFree]

The biological process that leads to a human being goes through many stages that might be appealed to in defining a legal person with moral or legal rights:

1. Formation of the egg in the mother's ovaries when the mother herself is in her own mother's womb. At this point it is a living individual that can in principle be tracked to the person it might become.
2. Fertilization by the father's sperm (i.e., conception).
3. Formation of enough of the nervous system to enable sensation.
4. Viability, i.e., sufficient development to enable survival outside the mother's womb.
5. Birth.
6. Acceptance by parents.
7. Acceptance by society.

Modern civilizations accord personhood no later than birth. Ancient civilizations allowed the infant to be killed if the parents or the tribe were not satisfied.

After conception, the normal process will product a living person. Right-to-life advocates believe that this should confer a right to be born. Right-to-choose advocates claim that at conception, the blastula is just a collection of cells.

It seems to me that the difference between a fertilized and unfertilized egg is morally arbitrary. A fertilized egg will become a person through normal processes without further intervention on the parent's part; it takes action to terminate the pregnancy. An unfertilized egg requires an action to be put on course. However, if it is morally wrong to commit an act that will keep an individual fertilized egg from becoming a person, is it not also morally wrong to omit an act that will enable an individual unfertilized egg to become a person? In other words, if it's wrong to abort a fetus, is it not also wrong not to fertilize the egg? To put it another way, there is no moral difference between abortion and birth control!!!

I suspect that the consequences of this reasoning for both family and world populations will cause us to resist this reasoning. But that introduces the question of economic trade-offs into the equation, and most right-to-life advocates resist such reasoning.

My own inclination is that it is the existence of an integrated nervous system that brings sensation and awareness into being. So I would draw the line of personhood at that point.

[bob x]

It used to be taken for granted that it was a woman's duty to become pregnant as often as possible.Of course, in those days most children died young, and population barely kept even from one generation to the next.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I've seen this issue raised - when does a baby count as a living being? - for discussion elsewhere, and usually the answer can vary to anywhere between the moment of conception to the moment of birth.

However, recent experience has me re-evaluating this issue.

We have two young children already - Hannah Rhiannon, who's 4, and Skye Caitlin, who's 18 months. Personally, I really wanted a vasectomy (even on the NHS!), but my girlfriend wasn't keen.

Then, for the past three months, I've had a feeling that another one was on its way. I even had a name decided: Maya. During this time I remember distinctly waking from a dream, and thinking that there was someone missing from our family.

And now my long-term partner, Julie, is pregnant. Maya is coming!

Or is she? There's always the possibility that the coming child is a boy - and we're both agreed that Torrin is a good boy's name.

OMG - hope it's not twins!

So on the issue of when does a baby count a living being I have to say that I still couldn't say to a date. But if you ask me when does a baby have a "soul" - I'm now left thinking: three months before conception!

Oh - and I'm allowed a vasectomy now!

When my wife conceived we both knew it, both times. I said the first one was blond with steel blue eyes and his name was Blake James. When the second one was conceived she told me he was red haired with hazel/green eyes and we named him Ryan Daniel.

While the kids were in the womb, I would put my stereo ear phones up to her abdomen and softly play Eidleweis as a lulaby.

Well they were both born exactly as we pictured them, but here is the kicker. Once when they were teens they heard Eidleweis, they both kind of stared off into somewhere else, like they are in another world. Almost trance like. Then one of them turned and asked "Didn't you use to sing that when I was a baby?"

Yeah, I guess you could say I did...

v/r

Q

[Bandit]

To Quahom & Brian-

i enjoyed both of your stories a lot. you both gave interesting thoughts to ponder that i never really considered & thanks for that

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Bandit

To Quahom & Brian-

i enjoyed both of your stories a lot. you both gave interesting thoughts to ponder that i never really considered & thanks for that

Brian...
So on the issue of when does a baby count a living being I have to say that I still couldn't say to a date. But if you ask me when does a baby have a "soul" - I'm now left thinking: three months before conception!

Psa. 139:13 "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb."


Psa. 139:14 "I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well."
Psa. 139:15 "My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,"
Psa. 139:16 "your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."

Jeramiah 1:5 "Before I stitched you together in the womb, I knew you."

I think Brian, we are in good company...


v/r

Q

[bob x]

What Jeremiah 1:5 says is that God knew him before he was conceived.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by bob x

What Jeremiah 1:5 says is that God knew him before he was conceived.

Yes, and a repeat (re-inforcement) of what Psalms say on the same issue...can't have one verse without the others...

v/r

Q

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, wil!

Originally Posted by wil

If most of those that believe that are pro life believe that our souls are headed to a better place and this is a lesser place...than what is the issue? Seems it may just be a short cut.

Of course that would include murder of all kinds not to be 'evil' meerly sending one to ones God. 'Course that is a 'nother thread.

True. Could we call the new thread simply "War"?

Murder, in my humble opinion, is the taking of a human life without consent. Sure, the victim may indeed return to his / her Maker, but that return is premature. And the perp? S/he has to deal with the karma or sin of prematurely ending a life. I do not say this in judgement, any person with a touch of morality left would feel some remorse in making such an awesome and aweful decision, that of taking another human life. Even soldiers.