When does a baby count as a living being?

[Quahom1]

Murder is the taking of human life, without consent. There is no doubt about it.

When does a baby count as a living being? The instant the potential blueprints are made real, put into effect. When zygote meets egg, and they agree to become one...kind of like marriage...you have no say over that, the z and the e do. LOL

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Q

[truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Murder is the taking of human life, without consent. There is no doubt about it.

So when does it become a human being? The sperm and the egg are a human byproduct. of human. The zygote appears to be a metamorphisis of the byproduct. At what precise point does this thing become a human being? You see, if it is not yet a human being, abortion should not be considered murder.

[wil]

Murder is the taking of human life, without consent.

What the heck is taking human life with consent? I'm with you though, capitol punishment, war, etc. is murder.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Truthseeker!

Originally Posted by truthseeker

So when does it become a human being? The sperm and the egg are a human byproduct. of human. The zygote appears to be a metamorphisis of the byproduct. At what precise point does this thing become a human being? You see, if it is not yet a human being, abortion should not be considered murder.

I guess one way to look at it, is when the potential mother can lose the zygote without feeling remorse. Presuming an otherwise normal, healthy, mentally stable, caring, considerate and morally inclined individual. Easy enough, I suppose, while the zygote is inactive. Once the zygote starts kicking around inside the womb on its own, once it is quickened, it is considered (legally) to be a human being.

If women want to go to war, really, then they command a battlefield no man can enter. And their opponents are completely at their mercy.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I guess one way to look at it, is when the potential mother can lose the zygote without feeling remorse. Presuming an otherwise normal, healthy, mentally stable, caring, considerate and morally inclined individual.

Wow, that's a can of worms Jt3. 'Course this whole topic is.

peace,
lunamoth

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by truthseeker

So when does it become a human being? The sperm and the egg are a human byproduct. of human. The zygote appears to be a metamorphisis of the byproduct. At what precise point does this thing become a human being? You see, if it is not yet a human being, abortion should not be considered murder.

The egg is the sum total of the DNA of the mother. The sperm is the sum total of the DNA of the father. What do you mean they are byproducts?

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[truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

The egg is the sum total of the DNA of the mother. The sperm is the sum total of the DNA of the father. What do you mean they are byproducts?

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The eggs that you eat for breakfast are the sum total of the DNA of a chicken. But you are still frying eggs, which is an animal (chicken) byproduct.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by truthseeker

The eggs that you eat for breakfast are the sum total of the DNA of a chicken. But you are still frying eggs, which is an animal (chicken) byproduct.

It is also unfertilized, hence the potential has not be realized. The "spark" if you will, has not been added to the equation.

Funny thing you mention chicken eggs. I have no problem eating eggs, but once I opened one that had the tell tale "red" dot attached to the yolk, and my appetite waned quite quickly.

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[seattlegal]

now, if what you are asking is "when does a child aquire human rights" that would be a different answer altogether that answer, it seems to me, would be more of a political one than a spiritual one. i think the answer to this question would be very dependent on one's politicial climate and so forth. i tend to feel that children are given lesser rights within a society until they reach an age of maturity (whatever that might be) and can then assume additional responsiblities.

[tangent] that seems to be one of the strangest logical disconnects that i've been a witness too.. the severing of responsilbility from rights. if you have a right to vote, for instance, it is conversely your responsibility to exercise that right. [/tangent]

When is justice extended to a child? [/tangent] It brings to mind the phrase, "miscarriage of justice" [/tangent]

[bob x]

Again, the term "human life" is somewhat misleading. If you bleed, all the blood cells are "human" (certainly not canine, or elephantine), and "alive" (and could be kept alive in a Petri dish), but no-one thinks wiping up a bloodstain is "murder". We are asking when the embryo becomes "personal", not when it "becomes" human, or alive (even before conception, the cells were never anything other than human, and alive). Certainly "personality" does not start at fertilization. But equally certainly, there is something "personal" well before birth. We would prefer black/white lines, but life has a lot of grey in it.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by bob x

Again, the term "human life" is somewhat misleading. If you bleed, all the blood cells are "human" (certainly not canine, or elephantine), and "alive" (and could be kept alive in a Petri dish), but no-one thinks wiping up a bloodstain is "murder". We are asking when the embryo becomes "personal", not when it "becomes" human, or alive (even before conception, the cells were never anything other than human, and alive). Certainly "personality" does not start at fertilization. But equally certainly, there is something "personal" well before birth. We would prefer black/white lines, but life has a lot of grey in it.

Excellent points bob x.

cheers,
lunamoth

[suanni]

Congratulations Brian to both you and your partner. Hope all goes well

I go with from the quickening. Up until that point, the baby isn't viable outside the womb and although the foetus is unlikely to survive out of the womb at the commencement of the quickening, there is no doubting that there is a live baby growing within.

[truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

It is also unfertilized, hence the potential has not be realized. The "spark" if you will, has not been added to the equation.

There is a spark just for the egg to be created. For it to evolve into a chicken (or a human, hence the conversation) requires additional elements.

Bob X raises an excellent point.
If I can respect my own ability to reproduce, not even considering the sperm that is needed to get the baby process rolling, then my production of a human life becomes so much more important and issues surrounding the consideration of when it actually is a living being sounds a bit numb. A plant is a living being though it is dependant upon soil and/or water. My skin is not only an organ but a living being, which shall soon die if I break off a piece. So once I discover what is important to me - what my values are - and where my 'self' lies, then whether I give birth to the child or not if I don't feel any value of self beit in me or that being, it shall not have life in my view. Maybe that is why it is so easy for us to eat meat.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by truthseeker

There is a spark just for the egg to be created. For it to evolve into a chicken (or a human, hence the conversation) requires additional elements.

Bob X raises an excellent point.
If I can respect my own ability to reproduce, not even considering the sperm that is needed to get the baby process rolling, then my production of a human life becomes so much more important and issues surrounding the consideration of when it actually is a living being sounds a bit numb. A plant is a living being though it is dependant upon soil and/or water. My skin is not only an organ but a living being, which shall soon die if I break off a piece. So once I discover what is important to me - what my values are - and where my 'self' lies, then whether I give birth to the child or not if I don't feel any value of self beit in me or that being, it shall not have life in my view. Maybe that is why it is so easy for us to eat meat.

You seem to forget the importance of a life coming from the woman, while the man "observers". And with few exceptions my friend, you can't create life without the male. And the male is ultimately the protector. Hence we go around the grid again. Men are not needed, women can do everything...

Guess so. But once a child is born, man can do anything and woman is not needed. Point is that the importance in the "perfect upbringing of a child". Mom and Dad are needed, and as far as kids are concerned, Mom and Dad in Love with eachother is "OPTIMUM".

Finally, only women can give birth to man. The moment woman considered man as an inconvenience, is the moment this world began to "check out". When a woman considers the life inside them as "inconvenient", then the end is near...and that is a natural fact.

America's time is short lived I'm afraid. China as well.

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[truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

You seem to forget the importance of a life coming from the woman, while the man "observers". And with few exceptions my friend, you can't create life without the male. And the male is ultimately the protector. Hence we go around the grid again. Men are not needed, women can do everything...

Guess so. But once a child is born, man can do anything and woman is not needed. Point is that the importance in the "perfect upbringing of a child". Mom and Dad are needed, and as far as kids are concerned, Mom and Dad in Love with eachother is "OPTIMUM".

Finally, only women can give birth to man. The moment woman considered man as an inconvenience, is the moment this world began to "check out". When a woman considers the life inside them as "inconvenient", then the end is near...and that is a natural fact.

If this comment is in retort to my comment, then you misunderstood what I was saying. Unless I misunderstood what Bob X was saying, then my comment was an afterthought of his post.

America's time is short lived I'm afraid. China as well.

I agree.