When does a baby count as a living being?

I, Brian · 07-22-2003, 03:37 PM

I've seen this issue raised - when does a baby count as a living being? - for discussion elsewhere, and usually the answer can vary to anywhere between the moment of conception to the moment of birth.

However, recent experience has me re-evaluating this issue.

We have two young children already - Hannah Rhiannon, who's 4, and Skye Caitlin, who's 18 months. Personally, I really wanted a vasectomy (even on the NHS!), but my girlfriend wasn't keen.

Then, for the past three months, I've had a feeling that another one was on its way. I even had a name decided: Maya. During this time I remember distinctly waking from a dream, and thinking that there was someone missing from our family.

And now my long-term partner, Julie, is pregnant. Maya is coming!

Or is she? There's always the possibility that the coming child is a boy - and we're both agreed that Torrin is a good boy's name.

OMG - hope it's not twins!

So on the issue of when does a baby count a living being I have to say that I still couldn't say to a date. But if you ask me when does a baby have a "soul" - I'm now left thinking: three months before conception!

Oh - and I'm allowed a vasectomy now!

bgruagach · 07-22-2003, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I've seen this issue raised - when does a baby count as a living being? - for discussion elsewhere, and usually the answer can vary to anywhere between the moment of conception to the moment of birth.

One joke that I've heard which gives an answer to this question is:

"A fetus/baby/infant counts as a person with rights of its own when it graduates from medical or law school."

; )

Ben

Vajradhara · 07-22-2003, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I've seen this issue raised - when does a baby count as a living being? - for discussion elsewhere, and usually the answer can vary to anywhere between the moment of conception to the moment of birth.

However, recent experience has me re-evaluating this issue.

We have two young children already - Hannah Rhiannon, who's 4, and Skye Caitlin, who's 18 months. Personally, I really wanted a vasectomy (even on the NHS!), but my girlfriend wasn't keen.

Then, for the past three months, I've had a feeling that another one was on its way. I even had a name decided: Maya. During this time I remember distinctly waking from a dream, and thinking that there was someone missing from our family.

And now my long-term partner, Julie, is pregnant. Maya is coming!

Or is she? There's always the possibility that the coming child is a boy - and we're both agreed that Torrin is a good boy's name.

OMG - hope it's not twins!

So on the issue of when does a baby count a living being I have to say that I still couldn't say to a date. But if you ask me when does a baby have a "soul" - I'm now left thinking: three months before conception!

Oh - and I'm allowed a vasectomy now!

Namaste Brian,

very interesting thread topic...

you can imagine that from the Buddhist point of view, the answer is a bit different than one might ordinarly give. in our view, the child is a continuation of a previous existence, so the question becomes, then... ... when is a child not considered a living being?

now, if what you are asking is "when does a child aquire human rights" that would be a different answer altogether

that answer, it seems to me, would be more of a political one than a spiritual one. i think the answer to this question would be very dependent on one's politicial climate and so forth. i tend to feel that children are given lesser rights within a society until they reach an age of maturity (whatever that might be) and can then assume additional responsiblities.

[tangent] that seems to be one of the strangest logical disconnects that i've been a witness too.. the severing of responsilbility from rights. if you have a right to vote, for instance, it is conversely your responsibility to exercise that right. [/tangent]

Dave the Web · 07-22-2003, 09:33 PM

Quote:

when is a child not considered a living being?

Now that is interesting and I had not thought of that? Perhaps that is why Brian felt like the life was coming through?

I, Brian · 07-24-2003, 09:30 AM

It is certainly an interesting idea.

However, I wonder how much our reliance on the perception of time flaws our general attitude to the entire question of asking "when" life begins? I have a sneaking suspicion that a proper answer to the question of "when" would be on the lines of "always, will be, and is!"

Vajradhara · 07-24-2003, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I, Brian

It is certainly an interesting idea.

However, I wonder how much our reliance on the perception of time flaws our general attitude to the entire question of asking "when" life begins? I have a sneaking suspicion that a proper answer to the question of "when" would be on the lines of "always, will be, and is!"

Namaste Brian...

are you sure you're not a Buddhist?

I, Brian · 07-24-2003, 10:24 PM

LOL! I've never been good with titles.

Maybe I should delve more into general Buddhist thinking.

petertdavis · 08-08-2003, 06:33 PM

Good way to dance around the abortion issue. To me, the most logical answer is that we count as humans when we can survive outside of the womb. However, the issue is far too complicated for any one-liner answer to do justice. A hundred years ago, for example, the point which a fetus could survive as a baby outside the womb was very different than the conditions that exist today. A hundred years from now, I expect it to be very different again. The root of the issue is religious, which again makes it very difficult to apply logic to the question. Since when was religion based on logic? LoL If one religion regarded canibalism as a sacred right, would we discuss the question 'at what point is it okay to eat someone?"

petertdavis · 08-08-2003, 06:36 PM

BTW, congratulations for the pregnancy.

mee · 11-15-2005, 02:13 PM

from conception i would say,

the Bible makes it plain that God recognizes and respects a life even in its early embryonic development. (Ps. 139:13-16; Jer. 1:5)

Tao_Equus · 11-15-2005, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I've seen this issue raised - when does a baby count as a living being? - for discussion elsewhere, and usually the answer can vary to anywhere between the moment of conception to the moment of birth.

However, recent experience has me re-evaluating this issue.

We have two young children already - Hannah Rhiannon, who's 4, and Skye Caitlin, who's 18 months. Personally, I really wanted a vasectomy (even on the NHS!), but my girlfriend wasn't keen.

Then, for the past three months, I've had a feeling that another one was on its way. I even had a name decided: Maya. During this time I remember distinctly waking from a dream, and thinking that there was someone missing from our family.

And now my long-term partner, Julie, is pregnant. Maya is coming!

Or is she? There's always the possibility that the coming child is a boy - and we're both agreed that Torrin is a good boy's name.

OMG - hope it's not twins!

So on the issue of when does a baby count a living being I have to say that I still couldn't say to a date. But if you ask me when does a baby have a "soul" - I'm now left thinking: three months before conception!

Oh - and I'm allowed a vasectomy now!

Congratulations Brian and Julie !!! and hello Maya/Torrin

I dont really have any answer to your question but shared similair 'presight' with my firstborn. The other thing I would say is that you think twice about the snip. Do a bit of research....as there seems to be mounting evidence that it greatly increases certain nasty cancers.

Regards

TE

wil · 11-15-2005, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Personally, I really wanted a vasectomy (even on the NHS!), but my girlfriend wasn't keen.

Then, for the past three months, I've had a feeling that another one was on its way. I even had a name decided: Maya. During this time I remember distinctly waking from a dream, and thinking that there was someone missing from our family. I'm now left thinking: three months before conception!

I think that is the strict catholic thought yes?? no contraception as all is stopping life.

I'm sort of starting to agree, a combination of the buddhist and the catholic...life always is...it is just a matter of when we stop it.

Quote:

OMG - hope it's not twins!

I can tell you mine are nothing but a joy!

The funny thing here in the states is that the liberals think life doesn't occur unitl the child is born...but they buy intro utero headsets so they fetus can learn while in the womb! And the conservatives think it is at conception, but they'll put 8 kids in a car w/o seatbelts....now that is what I call a potential for late term abortion...

taijasi · 11-15-2005, 06:13 PM

It has been stated in the esoteric (Ageless Wisdom) teachings, and confirmed repeatedly by various clairvoyant investigators, that the Soul makes its connections with the fetus at approximately 4 1/2 months, i.e., in the middle of the 2nd trimester. Interestingly (if by pure coincidence), this just happens to be what we would get if we "split the difference" in the ongoing debate between conception and birth.

One important point might be stated: The (re-)incarnating Soul always maintains the karmic right, up until birth, to refuse its new vehicle - if, for example, the vehicles having been built for it do not match up to its karmic merits/requirements. If one thinks about it, this makes perfect sense, and it accounts for instances of still-birth of otherwise healthy babies. The sutratma - or `silver cord' - in such instances, has been attached and maintained for the last 4 1/2 months of gestation, but at the last moment the Soul exercises its right to refuse incarnation (into an unsuitable vehicle) ... and the disconnection of the sutratma results in immediate death. Sad as this seems from an external viewpoint, it is the best possible move for the Soul in question, lest it become subject to the unnecessary additional burdens of an unwarranted karma.

If this is the case, why on earth would a Soul go through with birth into babies with physical or mental deformities, one might ask? Because that is the karma of the particular incarnating Soul, is such cases! The "veto power" does not apply in most instances. Only rarely is a vehicle produced that cannot serve the needs of the supervising Soul.

And further, in many instances where a vehicle is beneath the karmic requirements of the Soul in question, the choice is made to go ahead and incarnate regardless. This is because there is such a tremendous desire for experience on the part of Souls at this time, and sacrifices are made almost as a rule. Perhaps this is partially due to trishna/tanha (and thus a personality pull), but it is also the conscious choice of the Soul to make such a sacrifice.

As to whether the fetus is a living organism for the first 4 1/2 months ... of this there is no question, and certainly no debate. The issue concerns the scale or type of entity we're considering. Esoterically, the `builders' (lesser, devic lives) begin their work at the moment of conception, and it is safe to say that a vast amount of work goes into the organism from start to finish, during all 9 months. What is being produced, after all, is not just a collection of cells, organs, and so forth - but an entire physical organism, a delicate, comlicated vital mechanism (etheric body) with its force-centers (chakras), and the infinitely more complex astral and mental bodies that each incarnating soul has created for it afresh, per incarnation ... except in certain exceptions.

And people wonder why we don't remember previous lives. Hell, I don't even remember what I did two Tuesdays ago - and that information IS stored in my current brain/mind!!!

Science will one day be able to corroborate the teachings of Esotericism, and to verify the observations of (trained) clairvoyants. Many ethical questions certainly remain, and the abortion debate is not the false dichotomy that is usually presented ... just as the `creation/evolution' debate is similarly - a false dichotomy. But of course, for the unthinking, life's little mysteries really do boil down to choosing between one of two popular, ready-made viewpoints ... and the implications remained unquestioned (like religious beliefs), as we swallow our choice whole-hog. Yick, what a terrible case of indigestion!

What did Winnie-the-Pooh say? Think think think ...

protokletos

juantoo3 · 11-15-2005, 08:09 PM

Thank you for resurrecting this thread. On Brian's behalf, his beautiful little girl was born some time ago, over a year now I think. The remaining details I will leave for him.

As for the original question, "When does a baby count as a living being?," has anybody here from the states actually taken a look into Rowe v. Wade? What the judges decided, and why, including the English law precedent they based their decision on? Anybody here familiar with the term "quickening?" Or how abortion was not intended, per Rowe, beyond the condition of the quickened fetus?

Hmmm?

But let us not turn this thread into a commentary on abortion. The question remains as when does a baby count as a living being?

bob x · 11-15-2005, 08:26 PM

The question is badly phrased. The unfertilized egg and the sperm cell are already "living", in the biological sense. Life doesn't "begin", either at conception or birth, it continues. The embryo does not count as a "sentient" being until the ability to sense and react is present, about 4 months as our Hindu friend pointed out (the "quickening" in the old English common law).