When the next prophet comes?

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by barefootgal9

Greetings & Welcome Kurt!

I think we're pretty much in agreement with the spirit of the essay you posted.

How do you believe unity among the religions can be accomplished?

Here is a response from the Baha'i Faith at Beliefnet with which I agree.
http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?boardID=5608&discussionID=317607
Kurt, the Baha'i teachings agree with you on several points. As I see it, they are:

- religion should be rational
- science (one of the aspects of rationality) and religion are two ways of looking at truth. They should agree
- God is one
- The major religions of the world are have been given to humanity in a progressive format (like grades in school) to educate humanity about God. As humanity has passed through childhood and adolescence, its ideas about God have matured. Today, as humanity enters its maturity, it is ready for the message that God has been preparing us for.
- Since the messengers of each major religion were sent by God, they are all in agreement on the basics. Where they usually differ is in the rules for society at the time to protect the people. Most other differences are due to interpretation or misunderstanding of what the messengers said.
- The characteristics that we develop in order to follow the teachings of the messengers are the same: kindness, love of one another, care for the poor, etc.
--------------
If the medieval practices and the medieval beliefs of Christianity, Judaism and Islam that are based on superstitions were eliminated, then we could start building a rational and logical belief system that is based on truth and an understanding of spirituality. This is the value of truthfulness and rationality.

As time passes and when people eventually transcend their religious prejudices they will no longer say, “I am a Jew, a Muslim, a Christian”; then they will say “I am a Jewish Transcendentalist, a Muslim Transcendentalist, a Christian Transcendentalist”; and thereafter they will say “I am a Transcendentalist”.

IMHO, Bahaism could be the uniting force between religions if they would be open to a more modern concept of who/what God is. God is spiritual and will not interfere in the affairs of mankind. This is God's new message. Can mankind accept this? Eventually man will also understand that God NEVER has interfered with anything in this physical universe. Then rationality & logic can prevail in religions.

[ADMIN EDIT: link removed]

Namaste,
Kurt

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by arthra

kkawohl wrote:

Messengers of God are often spurned unless that messenger claims to be a member of THEIR religion. Islam, Bahaism, Sikhism and the Ahmadiyya Muslim Communities could combine their resources and be the leaders of a new vision of unity. Yet it is ironic that these four faiths who have been founded by the latest messengers of God battle amongst themselves for the right to be the correct one.

Reply:

Just thought I'd comment briefly a few things you wrote....

The Baha'is are not battling with Sikhs, Ahmadis or Moslems... There are no pamphlets attacking these religions from Baha'is.

- Art

Hi Art, it is not that they are attacking each other, but each insists that their messenger was more correct than the others. ALL must realize that the Ultimate Truth is indecipherable by the human mind and can only be divulged to the spirit which also often misinterprets its meaning, hence we have various religions and beliefs.

Namaste,
Kurt

[I, Brian]

kkawohl -

Could you please explain why you have linked to a a Google search for your alias name in post #11?

[arthra]

Originally Posted by kkawohl

Hi Art, it is not that they are attacking each other, but each insists that their messenger was more correct than the others. ALL must realize that the Ultimate Truth is indecipherable by the human mind and can only be divulged to the spirit which also often misinterprets its meaning, hence we have various religions and beliefs.

Namaste,
Kurt

I think Kurt what defines a prophet from our view would be an important consideration... People can have visions and intimations and are seers or they can also be inspired by their spiritual traditions to express beautiful poetic and sometimes philosophic writings that can have a lot of merit.... I think in some ways the Sikh Gurus fall in this category for us... Kabir for instance had a spiritual and poetic vision not unlike many Sufi masters such as Rumi and Attar and so on... We Baha'is applaud these efforts and actually you will find Rumi, Hafiz and Attar among those quoted in the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

What defines a Manifestation of God for us is a different matter from someone who maybe inspired or have visions... as important as these may be... The next Manifestation of God for us has certain criteria which includes innate knowledge... and has unique teachings which will be critical for the advancement of humanity in the age to come. We believe a world civilization based on spiritual principles will be the ultimate outcome of many of teh struggles we see today... So there is along with the expected future dispensation important social and spiritual principles that will unite the human race...

A few additional comments might be also in order here because you referred to the Ahmadiyyih movement in your previous post:

The Ahadiyyih movement is or at least claims to be still within Islam and hopes to reform it although it is viewed as heretical by many Moslems.

I have not seen any official Baha'i position regarding the Ahadiyyih movement. While I've corresponded from time with some Ahmadis, as Baha'is we don't recognize the writings of Gulam as authoritative for us.... as they have differing views of prophecy and interpretation of the Qur'an.

Our views on Jesus having survived the crucifixion vary with them as they believe Jesus died in Kashmir.

Baha'is work with Sikhs and Ahmadis at Inter-faith gatherings and on those areas where we agree, we support the same things. But I also believe that Sikhs and Ahmadis have their own cherished perspectives just as many Christians, Buddhists and Jews do.... The challenge is finding ways we can all work together to build strong communities and appreciate our unique qualities. Baha'is don't believe that the future of religion will be monolithic, locked step or coerced... rather we accept diversity and pluralism.

- Art

[BruceDLimber]

Originally Posted by kkawohl

Messengers of God are often spurned unless that messenger claims to be a member of THEIR religion. Islam, Bahaism, Sikhism and the Ahmadiyya Muslim Communities could combine their resources and be the leaders of a new vision of unity. Yet it is ironic that these four faiths who have been founded by the latest messengers of God battle amongst themselves for the right to be the correct one.

This is untrue.

While I can't speak for all the groups you mention, I know that the Qur'an restricts warfare to defensive warfare only (though some followers ignore this), and the Baha'i Faith prohibits aggression and waging war outright!

So for example, I don't think you can properly speak of Baha'is "battling" anyone!

Peace,

Bruce

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

I don't think you can properly speak of Baha'is "battling" anyone!

Bruce

Hi Bruce, the "battling" I was referring to was meant to be "mental confrontation". See #17.

Kurt

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by arthra

We believe a world civilization based on spiritual principles will be the ultimate outcome of many of teh struggles we see today... So there is along with the expected future dispensation important social and spiritual principles that will unite the human race...

.. The challenge is finding ways we can all work together to build strong communities and appreciate our unique qualities. Baha'is don't believe that the future of religion will be monolithic, locked step or coerced... rather we accept diversity and pluralism.

- Art

Art, within your words lies the rationality & logic that will eventually prevail, but not in our lifetime.

Spirituality shoud be the basis of all religions rather than their own interpretations of their particular messenger.

Kurt

[arielmessenger]

Originally Posted by kkawohl

Art, within your words lies the rationality & logic that will eventually prevail, but not in our lifetime.

Spirituality shoud be the basis of all religions rather than their own interpretations of their particular messenger.

Kurt

I have read Kawohl's experience with great interest as I too am one who has had encounters with God, the first one being my original religious conversion experience which concluded three days of experiencing continuous synchronicity events, one right after the other. This happened at Easter of 1979 and converted me from near atheism to an unshakable belief in the reality of the spiritual world underlying our world of the senses. Since that experience I have periodically had visions, revelations, and God-guided religious research that over the past 25 years have produced a new modern form of Gnostic Christianity, one that follows a Solitary Path because only the Solitary Paths are capable of retrieving believers in God from the abuses of organized religions which have perverted God's calling again and again, making God into tribal war deities of one self-chosen group or another, each claiming knowledge of God for itself alone.

God does choose prophets however, those people called upon to carry on the updating of spiritual evolutionary guidelines necessary for becoming truly humane beings as this is the only way God has "hands" and "eyes" in the world which others can see whether or not God is actually Present in our world and is backing or not backing the particular hands and eyes at any given historical moment.

This being the case, a religious challenge is automatically set in motion whenever a new prophet appears with a new vision. Do people automatically accept new religious visions? No. The established ones cloud everyone's minds with ancient visions never allowed updating because the new prophet with the power to do so never appeared, except, of course Mohammad for the Abrahamic religions with a few other lesser contenders like Joseph Smith or Mary Baker Eddy. With thousands of people experiencing religious visions, many bundled away in mental institutions, how is one to judge new religious visions for authenticity from God?

For myself, because I am one of those people who do get the religious visions, I can only judge by the way I judge all of God's imput into my personal life--I judge by Signs given, i.e., synchronicity events that spiritually reinforce my belief in the truth of the visions. If the visions are true then they will have outward effect on others besides myself--they will be "seen" by others besides myself. For me, this has happened and is happening now which is one of the reasons I am here on these discussion boards. Not only to proclaim the New Gnosis as it were but also to enter into religious dialogue with people who can talk about spiritual experiences and religious doctrines from a broader educational background or so I hope at this point not knowing for sure what to expect on these boards.

Anyway, without further beating around the Burning Bush, I am a prophesy bearer for a very radical gnostic Christian religion with one practitioner but who claims prophesy bearer for the whole Abrahamic religious tradition. I am currently involved in a religious challenge to the Muslim steward of the Dome of the Rock following a long vision quest that began 15 years ago, involved the creation of a truly "magic" sword of peace, and an experience at Easter of last year in Nazareth, Israel that confirmed something truly remarkable was going on here, perhaps God really has stepped into the works again producing prophets with actual spiritual power. Time and history will tell. But in the meantime, you poor people are stuck with a person who is convinced God is working through him and he's not in any funny farm. At least not yet..

Please go to http://www.************** which takes you to my homepage, New Gnosis. Listed there are two Books. Please go to Book I, Biomystical Christianity, note the radical Johnine Gnostic Christian index of subjects, scroll down to the Story of ********** and go to those pages to read a true story that is happening now as this particular Vision just will not seem to stop. It is linked to the Canaan Peace Plan, and the ********** Peace Challenge which is being arranged now between Shaykh Mohammed the Muslim steward of the Dome of the Rock and myself as God has handily arranged our meeting here in California next month. Also linked is another vision that is unfolding in tandem with the Pax Story. This is the Vision of Christ Josephine that is uniting my anachronistic counterculture community here in redwood country of northern California with the Lakota Sioux people. Very interesting stuff for those willing to see how God is uniting Old and New World spirituality.

-Ari

[arthra]

Welcome Ariel...

Ariel wrote:

"But in the meantime, you poor people are stuck with a person who is convinced God is working through him and he's not in any funny farm. At least not yet.."

For a spiritually advanced being does this convey some condescension?

Just curious to know who you were referring to?

I have no problem with people exploring spirituality and finding truth for themselves but it seems at times we can lose a sense of persepective and suggest that our experience must be so much more enlightening and complete than that of other "poor people".

- Art

[I, Brian]

Hi arielmessenger and welcome to CR.

As for the comment - I read that as condescending at first, then realised that it was self-depreciation.

As for being a prophet - IMO, such titles are best earned, never claimed. But perhaps that my English sense of modesty.

[arielmessenger]

Hi Brian,

Thank you for the welcome and re-reading of my post that informed you if not others that I do have some sense of proportion about my claims of prophesy bearer...some sense if not sensibleness..

You see, I have no choice but to issue the claim as to claim I wasn't a prophet would be to lie. I have been given prophetic visions and revelations to share with the world that sorely needs them. Because I follow a Solitary Path no one is compelled to believe me, no one will be excommunicated from my church which I carry around on my shoulders, no one will be condemned to hell if they don't believe. Yet what I have to relay from God is very important spiritual information, especially the Biomystical interpretation of Yeshu-Jesus' sacrificial death. That alone makes Biomystical Christianity unique in the Christian sects as well as giving Christianity the means to withstand rational criticisms about its Pauline Mystery Religion belief system which requires suspension of critical thinking in order to be accepted. But the proof is in the pudding and history will judge the likes of me and my spiritual gifts or mental delusions.

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by arielmessenger

I have no choice but to issue the claim as to claim I wasn't a prophet would be to lie. I have been given prophetic visions and revelations to share with the world that sorely needs them....But the proof is in the pudding and history will judge the likes of me and my spiritual gifts or mental delusions.

Hi Ariel, I do believe that your spirit has had intense spiritual experiences as mine has. There will always be future messengers of God as long as mankind exists. I was wondering if your mind has eliminated ALL religious conditioning and superstitions in order to clearly receive the so-called unadulterated truth.

IMHO, I have a problem agreeing with the words visions, revelations, prophesies. I do know that spiritual interaction by our spirit is a possibility.

I do not believe in visions unless they conform to the laws of nature. Visions are seeing with the eye. Spiritual visions are what the spirit envisions, which is a possibility.

Physical revelations of anything spiritual is impossible.

A prophet is one who predicts the future, seer; forecaster, fortuneteller. Predictions are correct by chance or via an educated guess. Messengers of God, in the past, were called prophets. They should correctly be called messengers.

Namaste,
Kurt

[barefootgal9]

The Baha'i Faith (not "Baha'ism- as the 'i already means roughly "ist") offers a view of the Messengers of God which unifies the great Revelators of the past.

The Revelator behind the Baha'i Faith, Baha'u'llah, announced unequivocally that these Holy Ones are in a very real sense all the "returns" of the same "Spirit" or "divine station." Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and many others throughout history all have advanced Their allotted chapter in the book of God's guidance. Each "Manifestation of God" is endowed with the fullness of Divine power and innate knowledge; all the Divine attributes are perfectly expressed in Them. We believe these "returns" are ordained and animated by God His progressive plan of providing guidance to mankind. Each Manifestation inaugurates a major cycle of human civilization and history, and, Baha'u'llah has stated, They appear only once every 500-1000 years or so. It takes multiple generations for mankind to respond to a new revelation and encompass its teachings, for it to reach its full fruit - there then follows a decline in its power as the changes, languages, reinterpretations, etc. inevitably dissipate the initial purity and power of the teachings.

To get a sense of the unique greatness and power of this station, I invite you to read what Baha'u'llah has written on the subject:

http://www.ibiblio.org/Bahai/Texts/E...tml#Page%20206

The generality of mankind also may receive glimpses and spiritual insights, and can also play a role in helping to carry forward the purposes of God. Among these are many of great power and impact, like Isaiah in the OT. Baha'is distinguish between lesser "prophets" and "seers" based on the evidence that their teachings and powers are partial and sporadic -- "happening to them," rather than commanded at will, and generally purpose to purify and call back to the teachings of a former Manifestation.

Thus the Baha'i revelation does not "compete" or "war ideationally" with the revelations of the past, but rather encompasses their spiritual teachings, expands the depths of those teachings, extends our reach, and also provides a body of social teachings and laws uniquely fitted to the needs of an age speedily building a global, united human community.

Individuals will also find Baha'u'llah's revelation an incomparable source of spiritual awakening and transformation.

I invite you to investigated it if you wish - or, if you prefer (as you may) - see if you can create a "better" revelation on your own!

;-)

[barefootgal9]

Why this teeeeeny print? Did you want us to miss it?

As time passes and when people eventually transcend their religious prejudices they will no longer say, “I am a Jew, a Muslim, a Christian”; then they will say “I am a Jewish Transcendentalist, a Muslim Transcendentalist, a Christian Transcendentalist”; and thereafter they will say “I am a Transcendentalist”.

IMHO, Bahaism could be the uniting force between religions if they would be open to a more modern concept of who/what God is. God is spiritual and will not interfere in the affairs of mankind. This is God's new message. Can mankind accept this? Eventually man will also understand that God NEVER has interfered with anything in this physical universe. Then rationality & logic can prevail in religions.

[ADMIN EDIT: link removed]

Namaste,
Kurt[/quote]

Well - before you can prescribe for us "a more modern concept of who/what God is" - methinks it might be useful to start by understanding what the Baha'i concept is/is not. Don't you think? You'll find many of His writings at the site given in my previous post. Or for a general overview of what the Baha'i community is actually doing to help bring about unity, I recommend baha'i.org

It's quite possible we don't believe in the same "God" you don't believe in.
;-)

As for God not interfering. Oh, but He does! Just giving a "new message" is an intervention, wouldn't you agree?

[I, Brian]

arielmessenger -

You would be surprised at how common the experience is. I've been through it myself and I know others on this forum have, too. In fact, I'd love to see bob x post up some of his experiences of travelling the Middle East in the 1970s.

But claiming titles for the self IMO is a meaningless act. It is our actions in the span of our lives that define us, and it is on that basis that titles are awarded, rather than claimed.