When the next prophet comes?

[smkolins]

There is the matter of what a prophet is (in Christianity vs Judaism for example) but as to the topic of recognising a prophet there are some key differences between how such a person would be recognized in other religions and the Baha'i Faith.

For example there is nothing saying a Prophet should be male in the Baha'i Writings. Indeed many have spoken of the very thing.

However, more specifically the other religions have only vague or implied or limited references to future prophets at all except for some overarching Prophet with Whom the Last Days are associated. The Babi and Baha'i Faiths however speak much about future Prophets in general.

Abdu'l-Baha says: "The Messengers of God are the principal and the first teachers. Whenever this world becomes dark, and divided in its opinions and indifferent, God will send one of His Holy Messengers...." and "Therefore we must follow and adore the virtues revealed in the Messengers of God whether in Abraham, Moses, Jesus or other prophets but we must not adhere to and adore the lamp. We must recognize the sun no matter from what dawning-point it may shine forth, be it Mosaic, Abrahamic or any personal point of orientation whatever, for we are lovers of sunlight and not of orientation. We are lovers of illumination and not of lamps and candles. We are seekers for water no matter from what rock it may gush forth. We are in need of fruit in whatsoever orchard it may be ripened. We long for rain it matters not which cloud pours it down. We must not be fettered. If we renounce these fetters we shall agree, for all are seekers of reality. The counterfeit or imitation of true religion has adulterated human belief and the foundations have been lost sight of. The variance of these imitations has produced enmity and strife, war and bloodshed." Even more specifically "Future Prophets will bring us new laws suitable to our state of development and continue to educate us on this planet...."

However there cannot be just another day when this happens. As is hinted at above - the world must be in some danger, some disunity....

"As to the meaning of the quotation, 'My fears are for Him Who will be sent down unto you after Me', this refers to the Manifestation Who is to come after a thousand or more years, Who like all previous Messengers of God will be subjected to persecutions, but will eventually triumph over them. For men of ill-will have been and will always continue to be in this world, unless mankind reaches a state of complete and absolute perfection--a condition which is not only improbable but actually impossible to attain."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States and Canada, December 1, 1934, Baha'i News, No. 89, p. 1, January 1935)

So the problem may not be recognizing a Prophet but how those that do reject Him (purely an English third person generic pronoun) may cause trouble as has always been true anyway.

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by smkolins

There is the matter of what a prophet is (in Christianity vs Judaism for example) but as to the topic of recognising a prophet there are some key differences between how such a person would be recognized in other religions and the Baha'i Faith.

I am close to being in complete agreement with Abdu'l-Baha except that "prophet" was often used when the correct term should be "Messenger of God". Messengers should not be deified; the message has merit but also is open to misinterpretation by the messenger, hence we have religious divergence.

Prophecies were told by ALL who preached about God in the Middle Ages. It was a preacher's (called Prophet) way of making predictions that in this day and age is considered fraught by naught but superstition.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000 describes prophecies as: 1.Characterized by vision or foresight. 2a. Having the nature of fantasies or dreams; illusory. b. Existing in imagination only; imaginary. 3a. Characterized by or given to apparitions, prophecies, or revelations. b. Given to daydreams or reverie; dreamy. 4a. Not practicable or realizable; utopian: visionary schemes for getting rich. b. Tending to envision things in perfect but unrealistic form; idealistic. Inflected forms: pl. vi·sion·ar·ies 1. One who is given to impractical or speculative ideas; a dreamer. 2. One who has visions; a seer.

Baha'u'llah's message is, at its root, simple: God is one, all religions are one because they all were established by God's Messengers and humanity is one. Individually, our purpose in life is to acquire perfections, or spiritual qualities, so that when we die we might "ascend" to the next world in a state of purity and enjoy closeness with God. Collectively, this is the time for humanity to finally achieve the dream of world unity and world peace.

I agree 100%.

Kurt

[BruceDLimber]

Originally Posted by kkawohl

Baha'u'llah's message is, at its root, simple: God is one, all religions are one because they all were established by God's Messengers and humanity is one.

Hi!

One clarification: we Baha'is accept all the GREAT religions, but not "all religions" as the Baha'i scriptures do state that there are a few that were born of human perversity.

Regards,

Bruce

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Hi!

One clarification: we Baha'is accept all the GREAT religions, but not "all religions" as the Baha'i scriptures do state that there are a few that were born of human perversity.

Regards,

Bruce

Now that's an interesting statement - which religions would you class in that category?

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Now that's an interesting statement - which religions would you class in that category?

Would Voodooism & Wicca be in that category?

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by kkawohl

I am close to being in complete agreement with Abdu'l-Baha except that "prophet" was often used when the correct term should be "Messenger of God". Messengers should not be deified; the message has merit but also is open to misinterpretation by the messenger, hence we have religious divergence.

From my experience it's both simpler and more complicated than that. Baha'is use a variety of terms interchangably and Prophets and Messengers are an example (though we differentiate, for example, between Isaiah and Jesus.) So in that sense you should have no problem with Baha'is word choice.

However other religions use the term Prophet in far more meanings than are implied by the definition of prophecy you site.

Originally Posted by kkawohl

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000 describes prophecies as: 1.Characterized by vision or foresight. 2a. Having the nature of fantasies or dreams; illusory. b. Existing in imagination only; imaginary. 3a. Characterized by or given to apparitions, prophecies, or revelations. b. Given to daydreams or reverie; dreamy. 4a. Not practicable or realizable; utopian: visionary schemes for getting rich. b. Tending to envision things in perfect but unrealistic form; idealistic. Inflected forms: pl. vi·sion·ar·ies 1. One who is given to impractical or speculative ideas; a dreamer. 2. One who has visions; a seer.

So the New Testament speaks of prophets as confused and needing the Apostles to straighten them out. In the Old Testament, on the other hand, Prophets are leading or challenging nations - towering figures who appear over centuries. Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, even faiths/denominations like Sikh, Jain, Latter Day Saints and the like have terms for figures like Prophet but each have some twist or detail or expection which varies somewhat. I know little of Wicca or Voodoo terms of the kind and know of no specific mention of either in authorized guidance but here are my personal thoughts. Wicca strikes me as part of the movement of a rediscovery of possible ancient practices by modern people for modern ends with modern assumptions not alittle mixed up with simply popular culture. Voodoo I consider seperately - as a real and authentic tradition but with complications from a similar kind of discovery by white people other examples would be Native American religions or Australian aboriginal. However such cultures may have suffered so much over the last centuries that little of what is current may be recognizable to people just 50 or 100 years ago. But that isn't to say they don't have something authentic to offer or respect or some fascinating possible link to the Baha'i Faith (I know of some Hopi and Lakota prophecies which some natives ascribe to the Baha'i Faith for example.)

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Now that's an interesting statement - which religions would you class in that category?

In terms of what is said rather than is not said I have seen reference affirming the divine basis of: Christiantiy, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sabean (probably lost), Zoroastrian (almost lost.) Note this number alone accounts for some 85-95% of religionists.

By implication I speculate Sikh would be respected as a reform of Islam and Hinduism - Latter Day Saints and I think Christian Scientists and others are considered in a similar light. I've seen specifically supportive comments for Joseph Smith (if not considering him in the same light as LDS do.)

There are mentions of lost Prophets and whatever religion they may have founded - at least one of which may have something to do with ancient Egypt (cf mention of Hermes .)

Confucious' teachings Baha'is do not view as a religion or of Confuscious as a prophet. However some philosophers are considered "Great" - Socrates, Plato, Aristotle and Confuscious are mentioned in this context possibly with figures like Pythagoras as well.

Various partial endorsements are also to be heard for aboriginal faiths and I know leading figures of the Baha'i Faith have met with and shared respected dialogue among natives of various religions. Indeed I think there is a quote about every spot on earth has seen the sacrifice of a prophet. I read it years ago but have not been able to find it of late....

I did not place many citations of specifics as it is probably more than a paper to do so. This is just my understanding. No one is bound by it - not even myself - in the face of authentic citation and explanation of the Baha'i Writings.

In terms of modern non-religions how about Wicca, Star War's Force/Jedi, the Celestine Prophecy, modern attempts to reconstruct and worship as the Mayans, the Druids (if that's even the right word), turn of the century (last) Spiritualists (cf Houdini...)... even Communism was treated like a religion by some, even Capitalism....

[arielmessenger]

but actual events you or anyone can verify for themselves: In this case prophesy bearers, myself and my daughter, seem to be connecting links between Old World Holy Land spiritual traditions and New World Native American spiritual traditions, specifically, Canaanite-Judeo-Christianity linking up and uniting with the Lakota Sioux prophesy of the Return of White Buffalo Calf Woman. Please go to http://www.**************/visochrisjos.htm to read how this is being accomplished, an event that is continuing on now as my Lakota friend, Alex White Plume who raises horses and buffaloes and who has offered to supply the four buffalo horns that are to go on the new Altar of Peace as part of the ********** story which is also still in spiritual motion, waits for what results next month when I meet Shaykh Mohammad, the steward of the Dome of the Rock, here in California. This is how a prophet works in our times and the Biomystical Christian upgrading of the Christian tradition, makes it fairly impervious to the historical damage that is being done to traditional Abrahamic faiths whose foundational authors relied on Judeo-Christian mythology as if it were established historical facts. If the ancient men couldn't tell fact from fiction, where does that leave their teachings? Another reason God sends in a new prophet to remedy the "deficiency" as it is termed in Gnostic traditions.

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by smkolins

From my experience it's both simpler and more complicated than that. Baha'is use a variety of terms interchangably and Prophets and Messengers are an example (though we differentiate, for example, between Isaiah and Jesus.) So in that sense you should have no problem with Baha'is word choice.

So the New Testament speaks of prophets as confused and needing the Apostles to straighten them out. In the Old Testament, on the other hand, Prophets are leading or challenging nations.

How do you differentiate between Isaiah and Jesus? IMHO, they were both messengers of God.

The Old & New Testament speaks of prophets as being confused.
Examples:
Deuteronomy 18:20, But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name
anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in
the name of other gods, must be put to death.”
Deuteronomy 13:5, That prophet or dreamer must be put to death,
because he preached rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought
you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery.
Genesis 20:7, Now return the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will
pray for you and you will live. But if you do not return her, you may be
sure that you and all yours will die.”
1 Samuel 9:9, Formerly in Israel, if a man went to inquire of God, he would
say, “Come, let us go to the seer,” because the prophet is called a seer.
1 Kings 16:12, So Zimri destroyed the whole family of Baasha, in accordance
with the word of the Lord spoken against Baasha through the
prophet Jehu
1 Kings 18:4, While Jezebel was killing off the Lord ‘s prophets, Obadiah
had taken a hundred prophets and hidden them in two caves, fifty in each.
-----------

Why in these modern times should we not eliminate the need for any more prohets?

IMHO, there will be new messengers of God as long as mankind exists.

Kurt

[BruceDLimber]

Hi, Kurt! :-)

In the Baha'i view, there's a tremendous difference between an ordinary prophet and a Divine Messenger (aka "Manifestation of God")!

A prophet is an adherent and defender of an existing religion, and may also speak of new religions and Messengers yet to come. Isaiah and Micah, for example, were both Jews, and spoke as part of that religion and that tradition.

A Divine Messenger, in contrast, is far more than a mere human! He brings a major new Divine Revelation direct from God and founds a new religion (which religion is actually the next stage in a single ever-evolving faith, the Faith of God)! And indeed, while each Messenger has a human aspect, each is also the Face of God on earth for that Day.

And the Baha'i scriptures (specifically, the Book of Certitude (or Kitab-i-Iqan) <pages 152-4 & 176-80>) explain in detail how each exhibits these two aspects (or stations), and how all these Messengers, while remaining distinct persons, are spiritually one and the same!

Best,

Bruce

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by kkawohl

How do you differentiate between Isaiah and Jesus? IMHO, they were both messengers of God.

The Old & New Testament speaks of prophets as being confused.
Examples:
Deuteronomy 18:20, But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name
anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in
the name of other gods, must be put to death.”
Deuteronomy 13:5, That prophet or dreamer must be put to death,
because he preached rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought
you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery.
Genesis 20:7, Now return the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will
pray for you and you will live. But if you do not return her, you may be
sure that you and all yours will die.”
1 Samuel 9:9, Formerly in Israel, if a man went to inquire of God, he would
say, “Come, let us go to the seer,” because the prophet is called a seer.
1 Kings 16:12, So Zimri destroyed the whole family of Baasha, in accordance
with the word of the Lord spoken against Baasha through the
prophet Jehu
1 Kings 18:4, While Jezebel was killing off the Lord ‘s prophets, Obadiah
had taken a hundred prophets and hidden them in two caves, fifty in each.

While there may be isolated references consider that most of the Books of the Old Testament are from begining to end tales of Prophets. And above these stand indisputable figures like Moses and Abraham - who challenge and change the way everything is understood and done.

In Baha'i terms one speaks of Greater and Lesser Prophets along these lines. Isaiah is considered a Lesser Prophet - one who lives and works within the context of Moses' Laws and paradigm. On the other hand Jesus comes with a Revelation meant to not be encompassed by but to be an extension of, that the adminstrative structure raised up to support it should be eclipsed by another way of organizing the community.

Originally Posted by kkawohl

-----------

Why in these modern times should we not eliminate the need for any more prohets?

IMHO, there will be new messengers of God as long as mankind exists.

Kurt

I don't know what to do with these questions. Some can look at the terms and see clear and evident distinctions needing different words. But others can see the terms internchangable while what is casually referred to by those same words are entirely different. Eloquence is hell indeed....

[smkolins]

perhaps this would be of interest - http://www.bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/ancient.htm It is eye opening what the Hopi expect....

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Hi, Kurt! :-)

In the Baha'i view, there's a tremendous difference between an ordinary prophet and a Divine Messenger (aka "Manifestation of God")!

Bruce

Hi Bruce,

Many prophets and messengers of God in the “Holy Books” claimed to have received instructions from God to convey to mankind.

In my spiritual experiences (see my signature site below) I received no instructions from God, yet it was crystal clear what my delegated task was to be. My spirit felt as if it left my body and experienced being in a place with a gathering of souls or spirits. I felt the greatest peace, tranquility and ecstasy. I felt a rapture that was beyond a person's imagination. I felt as if I was a part of ALL, a part of God. I was mentally communicating and in sync with everyone; many of the prophets of the bible, many historical people whom I had read about, many deceased acquaintances and relatives. There was no dominant force, no forceful leader. I somehow knew who everyone was. Every thought was interacted with the whole community. I had no questions; it seemed as if everything was revealed and crystal clear. I saw the universe stretched out before us like a vast expanse with spirits engaged in mental interaction like master craftsmen contemplating the creation of a new frontier.

I was shown that everything in the universe follows the universal laws which separate the physical and the spiritual existence. Energy is power, vigor, liveliness, intensity. It is a measurable quantity, without reference to its nature or source. Energy, or life is a fundamental attribute and function of the universe. Our bodies build up and harness a minute amount of spiritual energy that is transferred into the spiritual dimension upon our death. Then this spiritual energy is limitless because it lacks resistance and this energy can assimilate as a unity or be separate and individual. It is this spiritual energy that is God. It is a composition of souls, the spiritual intellect of the universe of every soul that has passed from the physical universe into the spiritual universe. It can create a spiritual existence of beauty that is beyond the imagination…my spirit has experienced it.

Namaste,
Kurt

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by smkolins

While there may be isolated references consider that most of the Books of the Old Testament are from begining to end tales of Prophets. And above these stand indisputable figures like Moses and Abraham - who challenge and change the way everything is understood and done.

Hi Steven,

Many prophets and messengers of God in the “Holy Books” claimed to have received instructions from God to convey to mankind.

In my spiritual experiences (see my signature site below) I received no instructions from God, yet it was crystal clear what my delegated task was to be. My spirit felt as if it left my body and experienced being in a place with a gathering of souls or spirits. I felt the greatest peace, tranquility and ecstasy. I felt a rapture that was beyond a person's imagination. I felt as if I was a part of ALL, a part of God. I was mentally communicating and in sync with everyone; many of the prophets of the bible, many historical people whom I had read about, many deceased acquaintances and relatives. There was no dominant force, no forceful leader. I somehow knew who everyone was. Every thought was interacted with the whole community. I had no questions; it seemed as if everything was revealed and crystal clear. I saw the universe stretched out before us like a vast expanse with spirits engaged in mental interaction like master craftsmen contemplating the creation of a new frontier.

I was shown that everything in the universe follows the universal laws which separate the physical and the spiritual existence. Energy is power, vigor, liveliness, intensity. It is a measurable quantity, without reference to its nature or source. Energy, or life is a fundamental attribute and function of the universe. Our bodies build up and harness a minute amount of spiritual energy that is transferred into the spiritual dimension upon our death. Then this spiritual energy is limitless because it lacks resistance and this energy can assimilate as a unity or be separate and individual. It is this spiritual energy that is God. It is a composition of souls, the spiritual intellect of the universe of every soul that has passed from the physical universe into the spiritual universe. It can create a spiritual existence of beauty that is beyond the imagination…my spirit has experienced it.

Please note that in the picture (see my signature site below) it shows an artist’s rendering of part of my spiritual experiences. My spirit observed the entire history and the evolution of the universe and our varying perceptions of God, as if in a fast-forward film. My spirit witnessed the beginning of physical rational life in the universe, the bonding of the first two souls that was the beginning of a spiritual unity. My spirit witnessed the development of mankind and man’s first perception of God from the story of Adam & Eve.

My spirit witnessed Abraham & Moses, their quest into spirituality, their interaction with God and the beginning of Judaism. My spirit witnessed God’s interaction with Jesus & his life and death. My spirit witnessed the beginning of Christianity & the senseless killings in the Crusades. My spirit witnessed God’s interaction with Muhammad, the beginning of the Islam faith & the Arab struggles. My spirit witnessed the senseless Twin Towers tragedy of 9-11-01.

In this 21st Century the Age of Technology, we are still plagued by religious beliefs that are contributing causes toward terrorism, killings and wars between nations. Can logic & rationality be brought into the belief in God and become a reality so that all killings for and in the name of God will eventually cease? God is a God for ALL & too large to fit into any one religion.

Namaste,
Kurt
Please peruse my book which can be accessed FREE at:

http://www.transcendentalism.us/

(All profits from the book are donated to charities)
I have posted on numerous boards. The surprising results have been that many who practice logical reasoning have suggested as an answer to religious radicals, that they read my book.

[I, Brian]

I went through a similar experience at 18 - though specifically without social constructs (I died at birth - I wonder whether that experience was recalled, rather than lived anew?). So I never encountered a sense of OT or NT figures and their relationship to God in your manner.

But it does mean I do quite follow your point of view with regards to rationality and logic.

What I do not follow is your attitude to religion in general - you seem to miss thousands of years of religious history and take a mere snap-shot of the present - particularly media stereotypes - and class it all together under a rather superficial view.

Perhaps this is because you are in America? Here in Britain Christianity is essentially liberal going on mainstream, with very little fundamentalism, and no overt attempt by Christianity to usurp everyday daily life akin to how fundies in the USa do 9ie, removing the theory of Evolution from school lit). Also, we have elements in Islam that gain bad press - we've had a few go abroad to fight Western interests, apparently - but there is a very sizable Muslim minority in Britain, and for the most part they are as peaceful as anyone else. Lived among them in Preston, Lancs (Deepdale), and live next to one here in Hull.

At the end of teh day, violence often demands a justification, but it doesn;t have to be monotheistic, let alone religious - in Nepal there is a lot of violence due to Communist vs Monarchists.

Ultimately, a heck of a lot of it comes down to politics. Whatever war you are looking at, reliigon is used as an excuse, rather than a prime motivation - even the Crusades were originally very much a solution to European Politics, rather than a real concern for the "Holy Land".

The hatrred isn't erally in the books - but you can use any book to justify any position you want. Because religion is often used as a moral compass for action, it is often merely the excuse, not the cause. And in secular society, it is the political compass used - meaningless terms such as "freedom" and "democracy".

We are an aggressive ape - a natural part of our biology. It is something we can redirect successfully or unseccuessfully. But just because a minority claim to represent a thing does not mean to say that the majority do, and just because a picture of certain groups is before us in the now, does not mean to say that we should ignore the past contexts that form such images - for they go back for centuries and millenia.