Where is the Satainist section?

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, noctuary!

Thank you for your reply!

Originally Posted by noctuary

I was raised in a household where my mother was a Catholic and my father was just a spiritual person who read the bible...

True. But talk to the older women. They use non Christian ideas still to this day. They use midwife lore to cure illnesses. Catholicism is wrapped in sensual religion and ritual. A perfect jump to other beliefs.

I noticed a bit of this. Of course, I was a teenager and a male, so there was a great deal kept out of my view that I only learned of indirectly. I did see a lot of conflict between what I understood Catholic teaching to be versus what I witnessed being called Catholic. But then, I have seen similar conflicts elsewhere even with other denominations of Christianity, now I accept such as the rule rather than the exception.

Old wives tales had to come from somewhere, and have to be carried forward by someone. There must be something to them, or they wouldn't continue.

Maybe its just me, and I mean no disrespect, but I don't think I would consider a "symbolic satanist" a satanist in the sense that a Christian would generally think. I haven't looked very deeply into LeVey, but it seems from what little I have seen and heard that he tended to use the term more for the shock value than anything, that at root what he promoted could be equated fairly well with most nature religions. Would you consider this to be fairly accurate, or am I way off base?

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I haven't looked very deeply into LeVey, but it seems from what little I have seen and heard that he tended to use the term more for the shock value than anything, that at root what he promoted could be equated fairly well with most nature religions. Would you consider this to be fairly accurate, or am I way off base?

I think the "Satan" symbol was for shock value, but I think his religion is not much like other nature religions, in part because it is atheistic.

Perhaps Noctuary can elaborate, but having studied Druidry and Wicca more, but having read a bit of Lavey's work and interviews, his religion did seem distinctive, certainly more distinctive than the differences between Druidry and Wicca.

[noctuary]

I use Satan as a symbol to represent what I personally think I want to be. I want to be the head of my own self and consious. I want to be my own leader. I want to live free of guilt placed on me to enslave me so to speak. When I choose to do something I want it to be on my merits and reasoning. Not because I am 'supposed' to. I want to be inviting, alluring, tempting, brave and curious. Satan, for me, represents those things. As for shock value? I am an extreme woman. I have tattoos, look the way I look, speak the way I speak, because I have made myself into the being I have wanted to be. There is a reason Medusa is on me. You fear her, but you cannot look away.

In short: I like to stand out, stand up, stand apart and stand above. Sue me

[China Cat Sunflower]

So, you want attention?

Chris

[noctuary]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

So, you want attention?

Chris

I get attention. Tell me someone who doesn't want attention and I'll show you a liar.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Some people want it worse than others. Gotta wonder why...

Chris

[noctuary]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Some people want it worse than others. Gotta wonder why...

Chris

I suppose it feels good. I want lots of things. You asked if I want attention. I said yes. I also want pink nail polish, a cheese hot dog and even a good night sleep. If you wonder why, you can ask.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by noctuary

I get attention. Tell me someone who doesn't want attention and I'll show you a liar.

I know a few really shy people...

Anyhoo, what is funny is that you don't sound much different from me. Or many of the people I know. Except for the Satan as a symbol part and the atheism.

But in terms of your description, I'd guess many individualistic types fit. What I find funny is what people consider extreme. I've met people who think I'm extreme and people who don't and it seems to be a sliding scale based on whatever they are used to. I find almost no one extreme, but then I grew up in southern California in a family of socialists, punks, and flower children. LOL So having tattoos and challenging authority is the norm and encouraged in my family, rather than the exception. I can't really imagine what extreme would be in my context, unless it is either insane or very irresponsible or unethical (in that it harms others). Practically everything else is par for course.

As for greater society, I usually am going for the "just odd enough" look. That is, I want to stand out enough for people to confront their stereotypes and have to wonder about their own categories. Is she goth? Is she Christian? Is she Pagan? What is going on?

The greatest compliment I have ever had was from one of my students. Toward the end of one of my anthro courses we were doing Q&A and he said "You're not American or anything, are you?" To which I basically said, "Huh?" And he replied, "You don't get in groups. You're just you, and you see all humanity as your group." That's about what I'm going for...

[noctuary]

I really am not much different then most people. I am a good person, I go to work, I take care of my elderly mom. Except for the baby eating...that might be different.

ok ok. I have to sleeeeep.
Long day at work!

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by noctuary

I suppose it feels good. I want lots of things. You asked if I want attention. I said yes. I also want pink nail polish, a cheese hot dog and even a good night sleep. If you wonder why, you can ask.

Of course attention feels good. That's why so many people want to be famous. For some people, standing out significantly makes them feel attention in a negative way. For others, it feels positive.

I went nail polish shopping today! No pink though- black and dark red-orange. I do have pink somewhere in my linen closet...

Is there anything better than a really good night's sleep? With some really nifty dreams? I love sleep. I could seriously sleep about 12 hours a day if I was a lazy bum and didn't have to go to work.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Of course, I want attention just like anyone. What I'm curious about is the line that divides genuine freedom of personal expression from simple attention getting behavior. Where does the one thing stop and the other begin? I'm being different because that's just the way I am, or I'm trying to establish a unique identity for myself by being ostentatiously different so people will notice?

Chris

[path_of_one]

I think it's a fuzzy line, and not one most people can distinguish, since they don't know the real motivations.

For example, if I dressed however I wanted to, I would generally dress in neo-Victorian. Mostly black, but also some ivory, red, etc. Not because I want to stand out, but because I genuinely love Victorian clothing and I think we look like slobs today by comparison. There are also all kinds of sensory reasons Victorian clothing feels good- for example, corsets are supportive and ensure good posture, and I find them really comfy so long as they aren't done up too tight, and it's a great feeling at the end of a day when you get out of one.

Most of the time, I tone down how I would dress because it is too different. I do this in order to blend in for a variety of reasons- for work, certainly, but also because I don't want people to find me so odd on a regular basis that they don't communicate with me. So in a way, I'm toning down "the real me" to a version that allows for more communication. More attention, in a way. Or maybe different attention.

Now, to people who don't know me, they may think when I do have an occasional night out and really go all-out with my clothing to what *I* like best, that I am doing it for the attention. Well, I suppose in some small way I am, because I very much like the attention I get from my husband. And the compliments I get on the outfits I put together are nice, too. But mostly, it's just that I'm finally succumbing to a night of being me. Me without worrying about what is office-appropriate, what will blend in enough, what won't offend anyone, and what will challenge stereotypes without reinforcing them. I'm just looking in the mirror going, "I really like black fancy stuff. That feels me-ish."

It's an insider vs. outsider perspective. No doubt, if someone sees me with the black hair, tattoo, Victorian clothing, and whatnot, they think it's for the attention. But if I do get attention, which I'm fine with, it is just a secondary benefit as I see it. It might feel good, but it's not why I'm doing it. There have been plenty of times I've dressed up to stay at home, or just to go to friends who could care less and have seen me like this dozens of times anyway. In my case, it was a long slog to get to where I was unconcerned enough about negative attention that I finally started making my body express what I felt was "the real me."

Of course, for this reason, I also don't try to "be goth." If I'm in the rare mood for khakis and a green sweater, I'm wearing it. When I go to the barn, you can bet I wear sensible clothing. I forego white makeup because it's not a look I enjoy and it clogs pores anyway. Still, if you saw me on the street, would you know any of these things? Nope. Which is one of the reasons I tone it down. I'm aware of people's categories and I'd like to represent myself as honestly as I can- in the gray area between them- even if this means simultaneously not being exactly who I feel I am. Not sure if that last sentence makes sense... but hopefully you get the idea. Sometimes to express who you are ideologically, you have to do something a bit different from expressing who you are aesthetically.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Noctuary!

Thank you for your reply!

Originally Posted by noctuary

I want to be the head of my own self and consious. I want to be my own leader. I want to live free of guilt placed on me to enslave me so to speak. When I choose to do something I want it to be on my merits and reasoning. Not because I am 'supposed' to. I want to be inviting, alluring, tempting, brave and curious. Satan, for me, represents those things. As for shock value? I am an extreme woman. I have tattoos, look the way I look, speak the way I speak, because I have made myself into the being I have wanted to be. There is a reason Medusa is on me. You fear her, but you cannot look away.

In short: I like to stand out, stand up, stand apart and stand above. Sue me

A lot of what you say here I agree with, and guide myself by, at least by my interpretation of the same words. I am the head of my own self, and I choose the path and Leader I wish to follow. I can't say I live guilt free, I have my regrets over things I might have or could have done differently. I do understand about using guilt to enslave; mom's are great at that, aren't they? I guess I do what I am "supposed" to because I choose to, and I choose to because I have learned in some instances the hard way the consequence of not doing so. I am brave and curious. I represent those values I prefer, I am the me I have created. What I was born with was G-d's gift to me, what I have done with it is my gift to G-d, or at least that's how I see it. I am not extreme, I have no tatoos (thought about it once, many moons ago), I really don't relish inordinate attention. I value praise for my efforts as much as anybody, but I have no desire to create an outward image that draws attention. Jeans, an old t-shirt and bare foot is my "me" style, when I'm not running around half (or more) naked. But this is not the image I wish to share with others, not that I feel I need to hide, but because it may send the wrong message. We do tend to judge books by their covers, it's a natural trait.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, I promise it is not meant to be preachy. I think what I am trying to say is that we do share some similarities in our philosophies, and where we differ is really insignificant. Depending on the application of those philosophies. If I were to use the Bible to justify eating babies too (thought I wasn't paying attention?), then I would have some "bad karma" to deal with and consequences to face, just like anybody else. In my humble opinion, it's not about "supposed" to, it's about doing right because it's right. I think we all know what is right, somehow.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Path!

Thanks for this!

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I think his (Lavey's) religion is not much like other nature religions, in part because it is atheistic.

Perhaps Noctuary can elaborate, but having studied Druidry and Wicca more, but having read a bit of Lavey's work and interviews, his religion did seem distinctive, certainly more distinctive than the differences between Druidry and Wicca.

OK.

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I know a few really shy people...

I used to be very shy as a kid. Now I'm just a reformed pragmatic lone wolf who still longs to roam the range solo but who sees the value in others' company.

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Anyhoo, what is funny is that you don't sound much different from me. Or many of the people I know. Except for the Satan as a symbol part and the atheism.

One's mileage may vary?

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I find almost no one extreme, but then I grew up in southern California in a family of socialists, punks, and flower children. LOL So having tattoos and challenging authority is the norm and encouraged in my family, rather than the exception.

Ah, so you're the family that lived next door, the one's my dad tried to drown out with Merle Haggard and Johnny Cash music? Like, totally gnarly.

I just don't understand the need for extreme. It's like, if everybody is being extreme, then all of you are simply conforming to a different standard...but you are still conforming. (I don't mean to sound accusative.) It's just another clique. I can't say I don't get the clique thing, I do. All of us need some attention some of the time. But I don't get the overwhelming desire to mold myself to a specific image to fit in with some or other clique. Either people like me how I am, or I'm not that worried about them if they don't. I do what I can to be likable, but I won't go out of my way if I am not liked. It's not that big of a deal to me. I could care less about attention in this context.

Originally Posted by path_of_one

As for greater society, I usually am going for the "just odd enough" look. That is, I want to stand out enough for people to confront their stereotypes and have to wonder about their own categories. Is she goth? Is she Christian? Is she Pagan? What is going on?

That's cool. Not what I would choose, but then I am more of a chameleon. My goal is to purposely blend in. Call it stealth, call it camoflage, call it covert operation if you like, shy it ain't. It is every bit as purposeful as dressing for attention. I hide in plain sight, deliberately. It is a part of my militia mindset that I have not surrendered.

The struggle I have is the "guy that snapped" and went on a spree...the quiet guy, great neighbor, spent a lot of time in his own mind...who snapped one day and killed 25 people before turning his AK on himself. That's the guy in me I worry about. That's why I need people, to get me out of my mind, even though I am *very* comfortable there.

Originally Posted by path_of_one

The greatest compliment I have ever had was from one of my students. Toward the end of one of my anthro courses we were doing Q&A and he said "You're not American or anything, are you?" To which I basically said, "Huh?" And he replied, "You don't get in groups. You're just you, and you see all humanity as your group." That's about what I'm going for...

Cool!

[path_of_one]

Kindest Regards, Path!

Best to you, too 123! (Shorthand) I'll respond in blue- faster than typing in all the notations for quotes. I can try to elaborate on the differences between Satanism and other Nature religions if you want, but I think the basic distinction of atheism vs. theism is one of the biggest. Also, the other nature religions typically avoid Satan all together as both symbol and personal being, because he is a Christian/Jewish/Islam based character, and most of them are going for non-Christian/Jewish/Islam references.

Further, Satanism tends to focus on the self and what gets you what you want, as opposed to focusing on service to society/the Earth/others. So, it is more akin to just plain magic to me than to any of the Earth-based religions. Hope that helps some. Most Wiccans and Druids are staunchly against the ego-centrism of Satanism and try to distance themselves from being associated in any way with it, but then that may also be because of its negative associations for the broader society.

I used to be very shy as a kid. Now I'm just a reformed pragmatic lone wolf who still longs to roam the range solo but who sees the value in others' company.

Not that different from me. Except I was never shy. I just like being alone a lot of the time.

Ah, so you're the family that lived next door, the one's my dad tried to drown out with Merle Haggard and Johnny Cash music? Like, totally gnarly.

LOL, actually, my dad is really into bluegrass aside from rock. And my husband is fairly punk, but adores Johnny Cash. I like Johnny Cash too; my muscial tastes are very eclectic.

I just don't understand the need for extreme. It's like, if everybody is being extreme, then all of you are simply conforming to a different standard...but you are still conforming. (I don't mean to sound accusative.)

That's why it's all about personal motivation. My family doesn't *try* to be extreme, and they don't feel that they are. They just do and think what they want, and other people label them extreme. Inevitably, everyone will appear to conform to something, because it's pretty hard to come up with anything genuinely new. After all, we've had thousands of years of people coming up with stuff, so there's nothing new under the sun. For some of us, it's not about being a part of a group, it's just about doing what feels most like "me." Both my husband and I generally have our tattoos covered in public. It wasn't something either of us did for attention and "extremism" (which it isn't anyway in our generation, something like half the people I meet have them). All of our tattoos hold deep meaning- it's about marking the outside with what is on the inside, claiming the body as one's own.

It's just another clique. I can't say I don't get the clique thing, I do. All of us need some attention some of the time. But I don't get the overwhelming desire to mold myself to a specific image to fit in with some or other clique.

Me neither. Neither the "extreme" folks or the "normal" ones. Other people make their judgments, but I don't actually enjoy being in groups much to begin with (I'm rather introverted) so in reality I'm happiest just with family and a few close friends.

Either people like me how I am, or I'm not that worried about them if they don't. I do what I can to be likable, but I won't go out of my way if I am not liked. It's not that big of a deal to me. I could care less about attention in this context.

Yep, me too. If people don't like who I am, that's all right. I do what I can to be polite, gentle, kind... but not likable. If that makes sense. I care about people, I listen to them, I try to help when I can, I'm pretty easy going and I don't force my ideas on folks. If they can't forgive tattoos and black hair and the occasional funky outfit, that's their problem.

That's cool. Not what I would choose, but then I am more of a chameleon. My goal is to purposely blend in. Call it stealth, call it camoflage, call it covert operation if you like, shy it ain't. It is every bit as purposeful as dressing for attention. I hide in plain sight, deliberately. It is a part of my militia mindset that I have not surrendered.

That's interesting. My mother calls me the chameleon, because I'm really good at it. I can also pick up local dialects, mannerisms, etc. within days. It serves me well for work, and it makes nearly everyone comfortable if they meet me when I'm in that mode. But on my own time, I'm me and unapologetially so. And I still blend it as best I can with what I know others' expectations to be (I have a lot of black and red business suits). I don't really feel any affection for or interest in ordinary middle class American life, so I only try to blend in as much as I need to for people to feel OK.

And my ideology and actions are in some ways more threatening to people than anything "extreme" on the outside. You should see the shock when I tell people I don't watch TV (well, sometimes Nova or the travel channel, but no regular shows). Or that I buy most of my clothing used or from a small select group of manufacturers that I know aren't violating labor rights in sweatshops. Or that I don't care about the size of someone's house, what kind of car they drive, etc. People find that more of a stumbling block than how I look. Unfortunately, quite a few people take it to be patronizing or condescending. But it isn't. It is just being honest.

The struggle I have is the "guy that snapped" and went on a spree...the quiet guy, great neighbor, spent a lot of time in his own mind...who snapped one day and killed 25 people before turning his AK on himself. That's the guy in me I worry about. That's why I need people, to get me out of my mind, even though I am *very* comfortable there.

Eek! Everyone needs people because it is part of being human. We're social critters, even us introverted types. I need to get out occasionally and listen to loud music with others, or work toward some common cause, or see art exhibits, mostly to remind myself that the world isn't the really crappy place that the media and many religions say that it is. It's filled with mostly nice people and some of them are really quite interesting.