Which creature fascinates you most?

[I, Brian]

All living things are fascinating in their own particular way.

I often spend time looking at the different experssions of life on this world, wondering how they actually perceive it.

One thing that particularly fascinates myself is how plants may or may not perceive the passage of time.

For example, how would a tree perceive a year, or a day? I'm not at all sure they would be subject to the same timescale, which in itself seems to be principally a function of consciousness.

And when you chop a plant down - how does it actually experience that? When is a plant actually dead?

Random musings, perhaps, in case anyone wishes to join in.

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

A lot of creatures fascinate me.

Take for instance the Monarch butterfly. They all summer/winter over in particular regions, but none of the butterflies that finish the migration have ever been to final destination, just their ancestors were. How do they do that?

The hummingbird (all species) can flap its wings so fast that they are the only birds that can truly hover and fly backwards.

Don't get me started on cats, big or small. A mutual "friend" of ours from MM could bore some of us to tears with his fascination on penguins. (Yep, pinguino.)

With the topic of plants, some plants are so strong and their "biological blueprint" so strong that they can actually break through whatever mankind can pave over the seeds or whatnot.

I'll leave off here since it would be a very long post if I got into everything I can think of.

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

as a vegetarian, there is one vegetable that i will not eat... any guesses? it's not because it tastes poorly (though i'll bet that it does).....


Brocoli.

why brocoli, you ask?

it has a nervous system, i reply.

WHAT?!, you exclaim.

i reply, yep, a nervous system. it feels it when you cut them down and they have even measured the amount of screaming that the plant does as it's being harvested. i'll see if i can dig up the link and the audio of the experiment. quite disturbing.

however....

as a topic of discussion... wouldn't it be interesting to know if the various canivore plants were also possessed of a nervous system? even a very rudimentary one like the brocoli?

[emong]

The creatures that fascinate me the most are the ones that have developed a societal structure, such as wolfs, apes, prairie dogs, etc.
To observe these animals in their environment should be of special importance to man, as their cultures appear to work better than ours.

[WHKeith]

Actually, a wide range of studies show that most plants appear to feel and communicate more than we give them credit for. One tree in the forest isd attacked by a particular beetle, and within hours every tree in the area is secreting a chemical designed to repell that insect. How do they "know?" Laboratory studies show that plants react in various ways to damage inflicted on other plants or on animals elsewhere in the lab, even in other rooms.

My apologies, Vajradhara! I sincerely hope this news doesn't dangerously restrict your diet!

[The Fool]

Yes, plants have an incredible system of chemical detection and communciation - I suspect the phloem cells for the transfer of water would provide a perfect mechanism for an accompanying electro-magnetic system of information transfer.

When I did my ascetism a few years back, I couldn't even cut back the plants in my small garden, for fear of hurting them. It became massively overgrown, and the neighbours still think it was students living in the place.

As for Broccoli - the worst part about broccoli is what it seems to do to my wind the day after eating it.

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by WHKeith

Actually, a wide range of studies show that most plants appear to feel and communicate more than we give them credit for. One tree in the forest isd attacked by a particular beetle, and within hours every tree in the area is secreting a chemical designed to repell that insect. How do they "know?" Laboratory studies show that plants react in various ways to damage inflicted on other plants or on animals elsewhere in the lab, even in other rooms.

My apologies, Vajradhara! I sincerely hope this news doesn't dangerously restrict your diet!

LOL... no, WHKeith, i don't believe that it will

interestingly enough... Buddhism doesn't insist that one be a vegetarian.. well.. some schools do, though that's an individual thing.

there is a vast, vast something that we are just beginning to become aware of... i only hope that, as we discover more, we don't end up trying to subvert it for our own narrow and selfish uses...

[WHKeith]

Originally Posted by The Fool

Yes, plants have an incredible system of chemical detection and communciation - I suspect the phloem cells for the transfer of water would provide a perfect mechanism for an accompanying electro-magnetic system of information transfer.

I've been doing some research recently (for my current book) about coherence in the vibration of water molecules within cellular microtubules, and how this effect may explain both how information--especially about healing--is transmitted through the body or to other people, and how this may relate to consciousness. For a full treatment of this, I heartily endorse a book called The Field: The Quest for the Secret Force of the Universe, by Lynne McTaggart.

The short version is, a shift in the vibration of water molecules within one tree might well generate a coherent vibration in the molecules within other trees. This is less a straightforward transfer of electromagnetic data than it is a non-local quantum effect--what Einstein called "spooky action at a distance," but which has been repeatedly demonstrated in the laboratory. The nature of that vibratory shift would include wave-interference-pattern encoded data for the manufacture of specific pesticides or fungicides, as well as "awareness," whatever that means to a tree, of a threat.

How this relates to screaming broccoli, I have no idea!

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by WHKeith

I've been doing some research recently (for my current book) about coherence in the vibration of water molecules within cellular microtubules, and how this effect may explain both how information--especially about healing--is transmitted through the body or to other people, and how this may relate to consciousness. For a full treatment of this, I heartily endorse a book called The Field: The Quest for the Secret Force of the Universe, by Lynne McTaggart.

The short version is, a shift in the vibration of water molecules within one tree might well generate a coherent vibration in the molecules within other trees. This is less a straightforward transfer of electromagnetic data than it is a non-local quantum effect--what Einstein called "spooky action at a distance," but which has been repeatedly demonstrated in the laboratory. The nature of that vibratory shift would include wave-interference-pattern encoded data for the manufacture of specific pesticides or fungicides, as well as "awareness," whatever that means to a tree, of a threat.

How this relates to screaming broccoli, I have no idea!

Namaste WHKeith,

thanks for the post.

here is a link to a post that i did on Spooky Action at a Distance or the 'Einstein Podolsky Rosen Paradox' :
http://www.comparative-religion.com/...read.php?t=322

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by WHKeith

The short version is, a shift in the vibration of water molecules within one tree might well generate a coherent vibration in the molecules within other trees. This is less a straightforward transfer of electromagnetic data than it is a non-local quantum effect--what Einstein called "spooky action at a distance," but which has been repeatedly demonstrated in the laboratory. The nature of that vibratory shift would include wave-interference-pattern encoded data for the manufacture of specific pesticides or fungicides, as well as "awareness," whatever that means to a tree, of a threat.

I'm afraid I have no idea what you mean by this - isn't molecular vibration simply a function of temperature?

[WHKeith]

Oh, dear! Now *I* sound like a New Age fluffy bunny. In my hyper-scientific days, I used to rail at the metaphysical weirdos who spoke breathlessly of "vibrations." When I said "vibratory shift would include" I was speaking theoretically or potentially, not in absolutes. My apologies.

What I've learned recently--and this NOT from fluffy New Age Llewellyn books, I hasten to add--is this:

1. All molecules vibrate, yes. And molecular vibration equates with heat, yes. [I used to poke fun at the New Age types who solemnly declared that one had to "raise their vibrations to a higher plane." "Ah!" I would say. "Increase the vibration of their molecules, and . . . my God! An explanation for spontaneous human combustion!] But wait! as the late-night infomercials say. There's more!

2. Within the human body, within the 50-nm diameter microtubules that radiate through each cell, water molecules tend to vibrate in phase, or coherently.

3. In quantum terms, this means that all coherent molecules within a system are in communication with one another nonlocally. The plane, frequency, and interference patterns of the quantum wave(s) potentially carry a great deal of information.

4. The spread of information-rich waves is not a transmission effect, like radio. Rather, it is nonlocal, as demonstrated by Bell's theory; what happens to THIS quantum particle (or wave) is instantly reflected in THAT particle (or wave), even if it is light years distant.

5. Theoretically, quantum coherence could explain a great many mysteries of biology, including the nature of consciousness, the speed of thought processes within the brain, how in God's name a nonsensical-appearing alternative therapy like homeopathy could actually work, and such oddball bits of trivia as the above-mentioned ability of trees to communicate with one another over impossible distances.

6. It has also recently been demonstrated that all living systems emit light. Not very much; in humans, it amounts to ten photons per square centimeter of skin per second. But this light also tends to be in phase. Further, the usual wavelength--when focused coherently--tends to form beams 15 nanometers wide, the precise diamter of the microtubules within the cells. Apparently, microtubules serve as wave guides to create a coherent system known as superradiance throughout the body. It is thought that this is responsible for those coherently vibrating water molecules within the tubules. I don't believe a link has been proven yet, but it's suspicious.

7. As a final bonus, the tendency within biological systems appears to be toward more coherent, more ordered systems, a process called negative entropy, or negentropy. [Yes, cells die and bodies wear out; what I refer to here is the orderliness of the waves of all those vibrating quantum particles.] Healthy systems seem to be more coherent. Unhealthy systems are less so. Tests have demonstrated that healthy individuals can create greater order in sick people through intent, believing, well-wishing, touching, prayer, or various metaphysical healing techniques. Repeated lab and hospital studies have verified that prayer and alternative healing techniques DO have a large, measureable, and replicatable effect on sick people, even at a distance, and even when the sick people have no idea such a study is being carried out. Again, this appears to be one aspect of the coherence of both light waves and vibrating water molecules within the body.

Whew! Do I still sound like a tranced-out fluffy bunny?

Interested readers are encouraged to check out "The Force" by Lynn McTaggart and "Physics of the Soul" by Amit Goswami. Or wait and read my book "The Science of the Craft" when it comes out next year!

[Susma Rio Sep]

interestingly enough... Buddhism doesn't insist that one be a vegetarian.. well.. some schools do, though that's an individual thing.

I once had someone sitting with me in a bus trip; he was a Buddhist convert, one converted to Buddhism.

He told me that Buddhists don't eat animals because all life forms have a soul just like humans; humans after death re-incarnate into other animal forms. If you eat animals you will be eating souls of past humans.

But you eat vegetables, I told him. And I asked him whether his knowledge of biology tells him that plants are also living things. In which case he should also abstain from vegetables.

This is what he explained to me why Buddhists eat vegetables:

Buddhists have to eat also, and plants have souls also; but they are the simplest life forms; so they would not mind so much being used as food by humans. Besides, it is an honor to them to be used for food by humans.

So I asked him whether he asked the plants or vegetables whether they wlecomed the honor of being eaten by humans.

He stood up and went to sit elsewhere, avoiding any glance in my direction.


Vaj, I am glad to hear from you that Buddhists don't all abstain from animals for food.

Susma Rio Sep

[Susma Rio Sep]

I love all animals, even insects.

And I would spend all my days observing them and their busy routines; if I didn't have to make a living and run a home and family. But they do get in our way and cause us troubles.

About cockroaches, I read that they have not changed for millions of years, and they will be around after the nuclear holocaust should have made irreversible history of mankind.

But no so fast, dear cockroach friends.

I read the description of the substance used for cockroach bait, and here what it says:

"Cockroaches find this substance irresistible and will eat it and die from it after some time upon returning to their homes. These dead cockroaches are eaten in turn by live cockroaches; and these latter will die from the poison still active from the dead ones."

So, even though they are immune to nuclear radiation, cockroaches will be an extinct species from the simple cocoction of Dole and similar manufacturers of roach poisons.

I am sad. Should we not have a program to save them, at least a remnant of them?

Susma Rio Sep

[emong]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

I once had someone sitting with me in a bus trip; he was a Buddhist convert, one converted to Buddhism.

He told me that Buddhists don't eat animals because all life forms have a soul just like humans; humans after death re-incarnate into other animal forms. If you eat animals you will be eating souls of past humans.

Sounds like Hindu to me.

[Susma Rio Sep]

Originally Posted by emong

Sounds like Hindu to me.

I think they are quite close, Hindus and Buddhists. Wasn't Buddha from the lands of the Hindus? Isn't Buddhism an offspring of Hinduism. And didn't the ideologues of Hinduism in their days looked at Buddha as some kind of a deviant reformer, like Jesus by the Jews of his days?

The bus seatmate was really a Buddhist, he even wore a orange wrap-all-over. He told me that he was taking more lessons from the local Buddhist monastery-temple in his city from the monks resident there.

Susma Rio Sep