Which is more important?

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, all!

I must say, I am impressed with the high quality of responses. Thank you all, very much!

Bandit:

i dont know if i want to be around someone who never does anything & i would not want to be caught with someone who likes to shop lift or rob banks because i dont want to be tried as a companion to that. then again, i dont want to run with someone who does good deeds all the time just to be put on the good doer list.

so, i have learned to just keep the few friends i have & when someone comes along that i really like & feel i can trust then i go with that & try to make a new friend.
i think it comes down to intent & motive (which you already stated).

i cant say i 'value' every single person in the world because i know good & well that if i get too close to some of them, i will surely be bringing harm to myself (because of what they 'do' which is based on what they believe).

You raise some interesting points my friend. I don't know that I am prepared to take "value" all the way to the level of close friend for each and every person, surely there must be some steps or degrees. Yet, even those we "value" least we are still to have compassion for, are we not? I think I would add, that valuing a person does not mean agreeing with their actions, let alone participating in those actions you disagree with. And there is a social risk, of being deemed guilty by association: "birds of a feather flock together."

lawyers would be good to answer this question.

LOL!

Luna:

At first I would quickly have said that we can only value what we can discern, and unless we are psychic (and I most certainly am not) that would only include words and deeds. How can we really know what is in a person's heart? Even if we see a person 'gone wrong' but then say well, she has a kind heart, most likely we could only know this based upon other deeds or words by this person (somewhere in my youth, or childhood...). And this knowing itself is judging--no wonder it was the tree of knowledge we were not supposed to eat of...

Your response seems to me the most difficult to answer. I want to say something, but it is formed in disjointed thoughts. I want to say something about people living up to, or down to, our expectations of them. I think of adoptive parents that take in unruly kids that the system has given up on. Kids that are deemed hopeless, under the right circumstances, prove they do indeed have worth. The thought that all is not lost, until we give up and surrender to hopelessness. I don't know quite how to tie all of these things together into something that makes rational sense.

But, we do value life itself. This comes into play whenever we hold power over someone's life, i.e., abortion, capital punishment, suicide, euthanasia, war...

We often end up playing some kind of balance game, weighing the innocence of the life, the cost of continuing the life, the quality of the life. Tricky business. I'm not ready to charge in and say we can come up with some set of guidelines that will always be appropriate for making such decisons. Yet, as a society we must.

Maybe I am thinking too hard, but wouldn't a set of guidelines almost equate with prejudging? I mean, guidelines would mean approaching every new individual with a set standard for measuring value, so to speak. Maybe this would be good, but I have a gut feeling it would not be flexible enough to allow for variables. I suppose part of the problem for me lies in trying to see people as basically good, occasionally making bad choices and doing bad things. Whereas, it seems in my experience, a lot of people write off an otherwise good person because of one or two bad things they have done in the past.

But we must also remember that we are dealing with people, not pieces in a game.

Absolutely. This is why this question bothers me so deeply, as to why certain people almost instinctively pass judgment on others, particularly in light of the admonition by Jesus specifically not to.

And this is where the difference between judgement and justice lies. As individuals we do judge; we must judge because as Bandit said we have to decide if an action is appropriate or desirable or necessary for our own life and contribution to society. But as indviduals these judgements can be interior. We don't need to spout off about them--thoughts, but no words or deeds. However, justice does not usually rest in the hands of the individual, but in our courts. Systems of law and order with judges. Most importantly, distance between the victim and the person who mets out justice. If the victim or the victim's family responds what you more often get is vengence. I know there are a lot of problems and institutionalized injustices in our system of law (one reason to strongly question capital punishment), but it's better than no law or what passes for justice in some other societies.

Agreed.

perhaps it is the amount of love we share that is measured, rather than our sins. Just a thought.

What goes around, comes around.

Quahom:

There is a point in time when the value of the person is sufficient, to when the value of what they do is of great importance...and back again (there are exceptions to the rule). Though generally, we place (or are supposed to) value on an individual as they are, up front. That is we assume inherent trust upon first meeting, for what ever expectations we have of them (call it the benefit of a doubt).

See? Individual/expectation and action/individual. One is never really elliminated by the other. Just prioritised...(in a perfect world). It isn't what we value more, but rather what values are in higher esteem, when...

This is an interesting consideration, and I think it ties in with what Vajradhara was trying to say earlier, there can be no action without an actor.

Your examples are good ones, ones that demonstrate why we value, or should value, the good in people, and the good that people do.

I want to believe all people are capable of doing good, and being good. What drives a person like Mother Theresa to work with the dregs of society? What drives certain people to look beyond what society at large agrees with, looking beyond the hopeless waste to find the human being buried inside? Likewise, what drives the rest to surrender hope towards certain others? If providing hope against the odds is what spiritual teachers and leaders instruct us to do, why do so few do this?

Seattlegal:

Love, repentance, and forgiveness are all related. If you don't repent from the hurt you cause to others, you demonstrate a lack of love for others. In the same manner, if you don't forgive others who hurt you, but are repentant, you also demonstrate a lack of love.

I am impressed with your grasp of the subject! Surely all of these; love, repentence and forgiveness, are multi-direction streets. Love ideally should be two-way, repentence is incomplete unless it is two-way, and forgiveness is inadequate unless it is two-way. I can love you, but if you do not love me in return there will grow a resentment between us on one side or the other. I can repent for myself, but if I do not repent to you for a specific wrong I have done to you, you are either not aware of my change of heart or feel it is insincere. If I forgive you and you do not forgive me, the issue remains unresolved.

Where a lack of love is evident, there is the law, to serve as a back-up.

I like this. That would explain when Jesus said: "I have not come to do away with the law, but to fulfill it."

Vajradhara:

to paraphrase Robert G. Ingersol.. that statement "All you've got to do is believe!" is the cross upon which Intellectual freedom was crucified.

I do not know of Mr. Ingersol, but I came to much the same conclusion long ago.

one of the things which, it seems, is often the case... we tend to form "first impressions" which last for quite a while.. even when those impressions are incorrect cognitions regarding an individual being. it takes no small bit of courage to revisit our previously held views and overturn them where we find them mistaken, in my view.

Yes. How often in my life it seems when I went along with the crowd concerning an individual, I was later to learn just how mistaken I truly was. This was most evident as a child, as we know children can be cruel, (even if that cruelty is an innocent one, of ignorance, not intent). When adults are cruel, it is much more calculated and efficient, and often well disguised. Yet, depending on our station in life, it can be a challenge to go against the crowd.

i suppose, in some sense, it is like being hit with a stick and being angry at the stick for causing the pain. it is more correct to be angry with the being using the stick to inflict harm, however, if we understand that they are operating under the influence of defiled emotional states, it is these which are more properly the target of our anger.

I apologize if I opened any old wounds, that was not my intent. I like this analogy, of being angry at the stick instead of the source.

not to be trite, but this is a very nuanced subject and i suspect there will be a variety of views to be found.

I wasn't certain it would become a can of worms, but that can be enlightening too. It always seems to help to have a variety of views when looking at the greater issues in life.

I think you nailed something important, it is far more difficult to view this philosophically, and charitibly, when you are staring the culprit in the face while "he" is doing bad. Sometimes forgiveness must be earned. That might not be written, but that is my experience in life.

We tend to have a lot of philosophical discussions around the forum, about the benefits of this belief compared with the benefits of that belief. Sometimes I just like to get my fingers dirty, practical application, put these things to the test as it were. Not trying to show superiority of one over another, just trying to understand how they each relate when applied as they are meant to. Again, it all comes out in the wash.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Paul James!

Yes, you can have one cookie!

Originally Posted by Paul James

Just to make the answer to the question sweet and simple:

The deeds and actions they perform.

Ok I said it, do I get a cookie now? Just joking. The deeds of a person are (I think) always far greater than the person himself. Jesus could have done whatever he wanted to on earth. But he wanted to let the people know the light of world. Therefor he performed all of those good (and amazing) deeds and symbolized himself by sacrificing his body on the cross to forgive all men and women. That was far more defining than just going out and saying, "Hi, I'm Jesus now bow down to me mortals, ha ha ha ha ha!!"

Yours is an interesting take on the matter, one I did not forsee. If I am reading you correctly then, you would place more value on the deeds of the woman at the well? How does this relate to our salvation? How does this relate to our judging, or not, of others?

[Rouge47]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, Paul James!

Yes, you can have one cookie!

Yours is an interesting take on the matter, one I did not forsee. If I am reading you correctly then, you would place more value on the deeds of the woman at the well? How does this relate to our salvation? How does this relate to our judging, or not, of others?

Thanks for the cookie, yeah!

As for your questions-

1. Woman at the well: Yes I would place more value on her deeds because Jesus new exactly what she had done in the past. What he had said had described her as a...well...slut. Therefor she was defined by her actions (better word than deed in this situation) more than she was defined by just who she was as a person (if that makes one bit of sense-I'm trying here so bear with me).
2. Salvation relation: Well...she had seen the salvation that Christ had brought to her by just telling her of past when she and He had never met. And she was astonished (I believe) when Jesus told her of the water of life.
3. We usually judge others by the color of their skin or by the way they dress, or anything else that is external. Jesus saw the internal part of the woman. And He basically (without saying it, but describing it) labled her as a slut. He bothered not with how the woman dressed, or by the color of her skin, but of how her past life had been.

I hope that answered your questions with at least something useful in there.

PJ

PS- Now how about a glass of milk for the cookie.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Bandit:

You raise some interesting points my friend. I don't know that I am prepared to take "value" all the way to the level of close friend for each and every person, surely there must be some steps or degrees. Yet, even those we "value" least we are still to have compassion for, are we not? I think I would add, that valuing a person does not mean agreeing with their actions, let alone participating in those actions you disagree with. And there is a social risk, of being deemed guilty by association: "birds of a feather flock together."

yah. something like that. i think some of us really want to trust & wish we could trust everyone. forgiveness & unconditional love seems to be easy as i have grown older. giving many chances depending on circmstance seems easy but TRUST it what is so difficult to gain & to gain back these days. i think there was a time in the U.S. when most everyone was instilled with trust but i kind of see that changing.

there is a risk like you say to some of this also.

then there are two sides there with forgiveness. sometimes we ask for forgiveness for our mistake & other times we are doing the forgiving. for me, people do not have to ask for that generally but i also think that we are supposed to go to each other sometimes & ask if there is anything we have done that was wrong & ask them to forgive us. we do that at church on new Years Eve.

i guess someone can shoot me in the foot with a bullet on purpose, but how many times do i let them shoot me in the foot before I stop that? i say about one time. forget the 70X7 because i will not have a foot left.
can i shoot them back in the foot with a bullet? well i just might & i will tell them how much i love them & forgive them as i do it...you know?

there is another thread going here: How do you treat others? and... that is kind of like this one in the Islam board.

[Rouge47]

Originally Posted by Bandit

i guess someone can shoot me in the foot with a bullet on purpose, but how many times do i let them shoot me in the foot before I stop that? i say about one time. forget the 70X7 because i will not have a foot left.
can i shoot them back in the foot with a bullet? well i just might & i will tell them how much i love them & forgive them as i do it...you know?

...Ouch...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Paul James

Thanks for the cookie, yeah!

As for your questions-

1. Woman at the well: Yes I would place more value on her deeds because Jesus new exactly what she had done in the past. What he had said had described her as a...well...slut. Therefor she was defined by her actions (better word than deed in this situation) more than she was defined by just who she was as a person (if that makes one bit of sense-I'm trying here so bear with me).
2. Salvation relation: Well...she had seen the salvation that Christ had brought to her by just telling her of past when she and He had never met. And she was astonished (I believe) when Jesus told her of the water of life.
3. We usually judge others by the color of their skin or by the way they dress, or anything else that is external. Jesus saw the internal part of the woman. And He basically (without saying it, but describing it) labled her as a slut. He bothered not with how the woman dressed, or by the color of her skin, but of how her past life had been.

I hope that answered your questions with at least something useful in there.

PJ

PS- Now how about a glass of milk for the cookie.

Paul, do you really think Jesus judged the woman at the well? Or did He merely speak the truth about her past and current life (history of actual facts)? My point is that Jesus did not judge the woman at all. He appears to have let her "judge herself", while he witnessed that judgement. And instead of letting her beat herself to death (which humans are quite capable of), He offered her an alternative, and a reprieve. No pun intended, but she was drowning in her own cesspool, and Jesus merely threw her a rope, and offered that if she grabbed hold and held on, He would pull her to safety.

Basically He said, "You admit you are in trouble...but if you trust me, I will get you out of that trouble, and that is a promisary note you can take to the bank."

He called her nor implied her to be no "slut". She judged herself, while he simply witnessed her confession, then offered her a means to find grace and reconcilliation both to herself, and with God.

Holy Redeemer, is his name...

my thoughts

v/r

Q

Oh, here is your milk, you have a choice of 1%, 2% or whole...

[Rouge47]

You're right, He did not say that she was a slut. But I ment that metaphoricaly. I mean, that just by him telling her of her past you could easily tell (judge) that she was slut. He was not accusing but rather introducing an accusation in which we (and she, like you said) took as being a slut. Make since?

And I don't really think that He did judge her at the well (if I said that then it was because I was in hurry to answer the questions before class started), but He was rather - like I said above - giving us the introduction in what He sees. Therefor we are left to make the conclusion.

Thanks for catching me there,
PJ

PS- I'm used to drinking 1% and 2%, thanks.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Love, repentance, and forgiveness are all related. If you don't repent from the hurt you cause to others, you demonstrate a lack of love for others. In the same manner, if you don't forgive others who hurt you, but are repentant, you also demonstrate a lack of love. Where a lack of love is evident, there is the law, to serve as a back-up. Compare Matt 24:12-13

This is great, Seattlegal. You have a wonderful way of capturing the Spirit of the Word in a concise manner.

cheers,
lunamoth

[lunamoth]

Hey Juantoo3--thank you for the reply.

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Your response seems to me the most difficult to answer. I want to say something, but it is formed in disjointed thoughts. I want to say something about people living up to, or down to, our expectations of them. I think of adoptive parents that take in unruly kids that the system has given up on. Kids that are deemed hopeless, under the right circumstances, prove they do indeed have worth. The thought that all is not lost, until we give up and surrender to hopelessness. I don't know quite how to tie all of these things together into something that makes rational sense.

Oh, I agree that there is always the potential for a person to turn their life around, yet another reason to consider carefully the death penalty. Not that I'd advocate for letting serial killers loose for good behavior in jail or allowing child molesters to work with children. Perhaps a lot of people are so badly damaged that they will not live up to good expectations even under the best of conditions, but we never know that ahead of time. May God have mercy on all of our souls... Anyway, no need for us to go around much about this--I was just sharing my thoughts.

Maybe I am thinking too hard, but wouldn't a set of guidelines almost equate with prejudging? I mean, guidelines would mean approaching every new individual with a set standard for measuring value, so to speak. Maybe this would be good, but I have a gut feeling it would not be flexible enough to allow for variables. I suppose part of the problem for me lies in trying to see people as basically good, occasionally making bad choices and doing bad things. Whereas, it seems in my experience, a lot of people write off an otherwise good person because of one or two bad things they have done in the past.

Yes, I think you are thinking too hard about this one. I was just saying that we need to have laws for society to run, but our judges also have to take into consideration that there are sometimes mitigating circumstances. I think we agree on this. As for individuals, I think we each develop our own moral code and check and re-evaluate it from time to time. If we consider another's behavior as immoral or amoral best to just have a sin-covering eye if possible, help them if appropriate. I do believe we will be judged by God as we judge others.

cheers,
lunamoth

[lunamoth]

I've always identified with the woman at the well, not because of her sordid past and being called out on it by Jesus (and thank you, Q, for your reply about this--I think you hit the nail on the head with your explanation). Also, not to pick on you Jt3, but of course the woman did not at first know Jesus was the Messiah. She was assisting, if inappropriately for those times, a person in need of a drink, and discovered that she was the one thirsting.

7When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, "Will you give me a drink?" 8(His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.)

9The Samaritan woman said to him, "You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?" (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.[a])

10Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."

11"Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?"

13Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

15The woman said to him, "Sir, give me this water so that I won't get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water."

peace,
lunamoth

[juantoo3]

Awesome answers, everybody!

Thanks!

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I do believe we will be judged by God as we judge others.

cheers,
lunamoth

i do too Luna. we want to show mercy that we will obtain mercy.
i just want to thank everyone for the replies on this also. i think there is wisdom here in this thread & i see wisdom in the gray areas.

[InLove]

Hi Juan and Everyone Here--Peace to You All

Did you know that this thread, printed out without avatars and signatures and stuff is 31 pages long in my Word program?

Yep--I did that--I printed it out. Why? Well, because I really, really want to chime in, but I want to organize my thoughts first. This is a substantial conversation!

But I am going to be doing much of that organizing in a setting away from my computer for a while. I am in need of a little medical care (not to worry, I am confident that healing will take place completely) but it will likely slow me down a bit. Hopefully, though, I will be able to post a little here and there in the forum, and I would like to place this thread on my priority list.

I also hope that jumping in here and saying this does not serve to detract very much from the conversation! But I truly wanted you to know that you have my attention.

I realize there will probably be more posts here by the time I can contribute, but I will read them as well.

Interesting.

InPeace,
InLove

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Your response seems to me the most difficult to answer. I want to say something, but it is formed in disjointed thoughts. I want to say something about people living up to, or down to, our expectations of them. I think of adoptive parents that take in unruly kids that the system has given up on. Kids that are deemed hopeless, under the right circumstances, prove they do indeed have worth. The thought that all is not lost, until we give up and surrender to hopelessness. I don't know quite how to tie all of these things together into something that makes rational sense.

BINGO! This relates directly the Love, Faith, and Hope thread on the Christianity forum. Is giving up on someone because we think the situation is hopeless really showing love? Or do we put our faith in what Jesus said about "loving our enemies?" Some will hear the message of love and forgiveness, and turn their behaviour around, which would be a great cause of rejoicing for anyone who truly loves others.

Originally Posted by Matt9:10-13

10 Now it happened, as Jesus sat at the table in the house, that behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Him and His disciples. 11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, “Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”
12 When Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Jesus did not give up hope on the sinners, even when faced with the scorn of the Church leaders of the time, the Pharisees. Following that example, we should not give up hope towards those who sincerely want to change.

[Rouge47]

Originally Posted by InLove

Hi Juan and Everyone Here--Peace to You All

Did you know that this thread, printed out without avatars and signatures and stuff is 31 pages long in my Word program?

Yep--I did that--I printed it out. Why? Well, because I really, really want to chime in, but I want to organize my thoughts first. This is a substantial conversation!

But I am going to be doing much of that organizing in a setting away from my computer for a while. I am in need of a little medical care (not to worry, I am confident that healing will take place completely) but it will likely slow me down a bit. Hopefully, though, I will be able to post a little here and there in the forum, and I would like to place this thread on my priority list.

I also hope that jumping in here and saying this does not serve to detract very much from the conversation! But I truly wanted you to know that you have my attention.

I realize there will probably be more posts here by the time I can contribute, but I will read them as well.

Interesting.

InPeace,
InLove

I'll be praying for you and hoping that the medical care situation goes well. Good luck with everything!

God Bless,
PJ