Who Are They?

[mee]

Originally Posted by Pico

As BlaznFattyz said, the context had nothign to do with blood transfusions.

more up to date ways of killing people in war or terriosim were not around many years ago , so does that make it ok to kill people because it is around to day ?, because the bible says not to kill, the bible also says to abstain from blood , but man has invented blood transfusions. but Gods law still stands .

[Pico]

Originally Posted by mee

more up to date ways of killing people in war or terriosim were not around many years ago , so does that make it ok to kill people because it is around to day ?, because the bible says not to kill, the bible also says to abstain from blood , but man has invented blood transfusions. but Gods law still stands .

God specifically said not to commit murder. He also said not to consume blood, which is what i'm pretty sure the context is referring to.

But to each his own. Paul said that eating meats is not bad in itself, but if one person thinks it's sin, then it is sin to them. They choose not to eat meat because they wish to honor the Lord. And should not be condemned for it.

I hope I didn't sin against you by your wish to honor the Lord by not having blood transfusions. If so, I am sorry.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Pico

God specifically said not to commit murder. He also said not to consume blood, which is what i'm pretty sure the context is referring to.

But to each his own. Paul said that eating meats is not bad in itself, but if one person thinks it's sin, then it is sin to them. They choose not to eat meat because they wish to honor the Lord. And should not be condemned for it.

I hope I didn't sin against you by your wish to honor the Lord by not having blood transfusions. If so, I am sorry.

yes you are correct in saying that we should not consume blood that is Gods law , but in Acts 15;28-29 it says to abstain from blood AND from strangled things , if it just meant dont eat things that have not been bled why put abstain from blood as well . dont worry you did not offend me back in bible times many meat markets used to sell the left over meat that had been offered up in sacrifices to other Gods (paganGods), and christians could buy this meat without it worrying their concience. it had been bled so it was ok , but if it had not been bled that was a different matter

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by mee

Its not a case of allowing a loved one to go without medical help ,it is a case of having all help available , exept one aspect, and that is Gods law on blood, many people have been told that they will die if they dont have blood, and here they are still around . it is not like we are saying ...we refuse ALL treatment .... it is just one thing ,and that is blood...
(1 Samuel 14:32) And the people began darting greedily at the spoil and taking sheep and cattle and calves and slaughtering them on the earth, and the people fell to eating along with the blood........................ this happened because they were very tired and they thought it was alright to disregard the blood law . but it was a sin ...............

based on this interpretation of scripture, jw's would allow a loved one to die rather than giving them blood. like i said, and where i think a jw's faith in their organizations interpretation is misguided, is that love comes first and everything else has to give into it if necessary. when david was hungry he ate the bread from the temple; on the sabbath when men were dying, jesus healed them; when told not to talk to certain tribes or told keep their religion confined, jesus said to spread the gospel to all people so all may have eternal life. it does not undue gods law, rather it takes into account the priority of life, and the love that sustains it, and it is justified by the greater good. like an ambulance, it goes thru red lights, but that doesnt permanently undue the laws of the road or give an ambulance driver a free pass to get to burger king by going thru red lights, rather it gets the sick person to the hospital quickly in that emergency. you are mixing the distancing of gods people from drinking blood and pagan rituals with blood transfusions and saving lives.

[Muslimwoman]

Mee may I ask you whether Jehovah's Witnesses study context and timeline in the scriptures? By that I mean, whether G-d was specifically speaking about a given people or time. Or do you simply accept the entire sripture as for all people, for all time?

I only ask because in Islam there are so many verses in the Quran which refer specifically to the Muslims at the time but not allowed following that time. There are also many verses that can easily be taken out of context if you just look at the verse but when you read the whole chapter the context of the verse changes so much.

[mee]

[quote=BlaznFattyz;117775]i think a jw's faith in their organizations interpretation is misguided, is that love comes first and everything else has to give into it if necessary. quote]
many people think many things , but LOVE OF GOD is the prime thing and God says to abstain from blood , that is why Jehovahs witnesses stick to Gods word , they do not pick and choose what they will stick to, they take the bible as Aurthority, even if it goes against the grain of this world . sticking to Gods ways is always benefical to a person . Jehovah knows what is best for us, and even though scientists are learning many things about blood the creator knows better than anyone. i was reading some interesting medical things about blood . here is what some medical people are realizing

Scientists are now studying the effect of transfused blood on the body’s defense, or immune, system. What might that mean for you or for a relative who needs surgery?
When doctors transplant a heart, a liver, or another organ, the recipient’s immune system may sense the foreign tissue and reject it. Yet, a transfusion is a tissue transplant. Even blood that has been "properly" cross matched can suppress the immune system. At a conference of pathologists, the point was made that hundreds of medical papers "have linked blood transfusions to immunologic responses."—"Case Builds Against Transfusions," Medical World News, December 11, 1989.
A prime task of your immune system is detecting and destroying malignant (cancer) cells. Could suppressed immunity lead to cancer and death? Note two reports.
The journal Cancer (February 15, 1987) gave the results of a study done in the Netherlands: "In the patients with colon cancer, a significant adverse effect of transfusion on long-term survival was seen. In this group there was a cumulative 5-year overall survival of 48% for the transfused and 74% for the nontransfused patients." Physicians at the University of Southern California followed up on a hundred patients who underwent cancer surgery. "The recurrence rate for all cancers of the larynx was 14% for those who did not receive blood and 65% for those who did. For cancer of the oral cavity, pharynx, and nose or sinus, the recurrence rate was 31% without transfusions and 71% with transfusions."—Annals of Otology, Rhinology & Laryngology, March 1989.

What do such studies suggest regarding transfusions? In his article "Blood Transfusions and Surgery for Cancer," Dr. John S. Spratt concluded: "The cancer surgeon may need to become a bloodless surgeon."—The American Journal of Surgery, September 1986............................ but as i mentioned earlier its not really the health issue , but its about obedience and love of God .

[mee]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Mee may I ask you whether Jehovah's Witnesses study context and timeline in the scriptures? By that I mean, whether G-d was specifically speaking about a given people or time. Or do you simply accept the entire sripture as for all people, for all time?

I only ask because in Islam there are so many verses in the Quran which refer specifically to the Muslims at the time but not allowed following that time. There are also many verses that can easily be taken out of context if you just look at the verse but when you read the whole chapter the context of the verse changes so much.

there are many prophecies in the bible that came true in former times ,but those prophecies also have a major fulfillment for our time .Ancient BABYLON was destroyed , and again the BABYLON THE GREAT spoken of in the book of revelation will be destroyed never to be found again. and the command for Gods people is to flee from her and get out of her... revelation 18;4.. this BABYLON THE GREAT has a worldwide influence , and she is symbolically known as a harlot , this harlot is the WORLDWIDE EMPIRE OF FALSE RELIGION many things are happening in this time of the end .Also Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 C.E but there is a major fulfillment for our day

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Mee may I ask you whether Jehovah's Witnesses study context and timeline in the scriptures? By that I mean, whether G-d was specifically speaking about a given people or time. Or do you simply accept the entire sripture as for all people, for all time?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Now you understand why my Latin teacher used to throw the board rubber at me so often. For an intelligent woman I just fail to 'get it' sometimes.

Noooo..... We all fail to get it most of the time.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

My sincere apologies Mee, I didn't realise you are JW.

lol.....

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Sorry you will have to give me a timeline. So did Peter receive his message from G-d (that nothing was unclean) before or after the verses about blood?

Maybe I should just forget this and simply accept that JW's don't believe in using blood for anything other than pumping around the body it was created in?!

That would probaly be the best idea lol..... That is pretty much how I look at most of religion... There is a simple answer to most of the questions or there is the redicuoulsy long stupid answers that cause more confusion and issues... Things should be yes or no.... Black or white... lol. Here is the most simple answre..... "Yes"... To keep is simple but with slightly more explination look at Gen 9:...4? lol.... This is even before Peter, this is the MAIN guidelines for Adam and Eve.... And should be for all mankind....

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I am so sorry but these verses just do not seem specific. My gut tells me they are referring to a forgotten practice that was seen as the norm then but we know that wasn't transfusion and I have never read anything about early Christians drinking blood (and you can be sure if there was the Muslim sites would have mentioned it by now). I can certainly see where JW's get the idea from, having looked at the verses but it just feels that there is something missing from the picture - sorry, just my view.

So we have the "soul" but I also think we have the other value of blood... Ask yourself "What did Jesus apprently give for our freedom?" His...... ? B _ _ _ _.

[Neemai]

Originally Posted by mee

because the bible says not to kill, the bible also says to abstain from blood , but man has invented blood transfusions. but Gods law still stands .

"Not to kill, and to abstain from blood."

Wouldn't a Vegetarian diet be just as applicable to the above statments?

Why avoid blood transfusions, but then kill and eat animals whose meat contains blood?

...?

Neemai

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by mee

many people think many things...that is why Jehovahs witnesses stick to Gods word, they do not pick and choose what they will stick to, they take the bible as Aurthority, even if it goes against the grain of this world...

The Watchtower Society has officially notified its members (see diagram from 6-15-04 Watchtower) that they may now use hemoglobin (red cells without the membrane) - the largest of all blood components which transports oxygen throughout the body.

seems more like jw's stick to the watchtower's word, and they take the watchtower as authority, doesnt it? scary to think they you will totally believe everything they say.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Yes.

Erm which one??

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Here is the most simple answre..... "Yes"... To keep is simple but with slightly more explination look at Gen 9:...4? lol.... This is even before Peter, this is the MAIN guidelines for Adam and Eve.... And should be for all mankind....

Is Gen 9:4 not talking about allowing the soul (carried in the blood?) to leave the body before eating the flesh? Let's be honest, even after bleeding an animal there is still blood in the flesh, so as Neemai said, shouldn't all followers of the Bible be vegetarian, as it is impossible to remove all blood from flesh?

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

So we have the "soul" but I also think we have the other value of blood... Ask yourself "What did Jesus apprently give for our freedom?" His...... ? B _ _ _ _.

Ok, so G-d created humans and all other creatures, He gave us all blood. So why is it ok for JW's and Christians to eat flesh if it still contains blood? If blood is so sacred, as Jesus (pbuh) gave his to save mankind, why is it only sacred in some scenario's? Sorry but it sounds a bit hypocritical to say I can eat a rare steak but can't save my child's life because blood is sacred.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Erm which one??

Yes...

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Is Gen 9:4 not talking about allowing the soul (carried in the blood?) to leave the body before eating the flesh? Let's be honest, even after bleeding an animal there is still blood in the flesh, so as Neemai said, shouldn't all followers of the Bible be vegetarian, as it is impossible to remove all blood from flesh?

Hey, don't shoot the messenger :P I don't believe in all of this lol, I am just giving you the JW reasons.... True perhaps all the followrs of the bible should be vegetarian.... Afterall you do not benefit what so ever from eating meat... We are not meat eaters by nature.... Our stupidty and belief we are the best/dominant animal reinforces this -want- (not need) to consume flesh.

If these creatures have a soul, which the bible DOES say they have.... And we already KNOW they are living creatures.. Just like us... And one of the commandments of god is NOT to kill.. Why are the animals excluded from that? Surley their lives are just as important as ours.... Oh I forgot.. Our over swelled brain cells tell us, we are far more important....

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Ok, so G-d created humans and all other creatures, He gave us all blood. So why is it ok for JW's and Christians to eat flesh if it still contains blood? If blood is so sacred, as Jesus (pbuh) gave his to save mankind, why is it only sacred in some scenario's? Sorry but it sounds a bit hypocritical to say I can eat a rare steak but can't save my child's life because blood is sacred.

Again, I know! lol... There is tons of toot in the bible that is hypocritical... But, why break the habit of a life time?

[DannyHaszard]

Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs and who are they?

The Watchtower is big money, being one of the top 40 New York City Corporations making nearly one billion dollars a year. That's just from one of their many corporations.


Unlike in the case of Christians who are persecuted in other lands for talking about Jesus Christ, Jehovah's Witnesses are largely persecuted for following the teachings begun during the second presidency of the Watchtower, when Joseph F. Rutherford took over in a corporate flap and began changing doctrines quickly in the Watchtower belief system. He claimed that angels directly conveyed truth to some of those in leadership. He coined the name Jehovah's Witnesses to make them stand out from being witnesses of Jesus, a typical evangelical expression (and a Biblical one).

Rutherford dumped holidays, birthdays and the 1874 date for the invisible return on Christ, and invented an earthly class of Witnesses, since only 144,000 can go to heaven in their teaching. The rest, meaning all 99.9% of Witnesses still alive, will live forever on a cleansed earth, under the rule of the Watchtower leaders in heaven, who will keep them in line by local elders known as 'Princes'.

If you have been witnessed to by Jehovah's Witnesses and you reject their message, you will likely die shortly at Armageddon with all the other non-Witnesses, since theirs is the only true religion, and (if they can live up to all the rules) they are the only ones to inhabit this new earth. If you believe Witnesses seem rigid now, any non-conformist during the future cleansed earth will be directly destroyed by Jehovah. Even now a Witness will be disfellowshipped for any one of many gaffs, such as smoking, taking a blood transfusion, or even voting.

To even vocally question the teachings of the Watchtower will result in complete cutting off, with family and friends usually being forbidden to talk to them. The Watchtower is a truly Orwellian world.

By their own Yearbook accounts, Witnesses are shrinking in number in many Western countries as of the last three years, as the internet facilitates the spread of information (much of it critical of the Witnesses). Witnesses are cautioned against creating JW-related websites, largely to prevent their members from discovering the history and dirty laundry of this organization on other websites. (There are literally hundreds of former members pages in many languages.)

The Watchtower strives hard to control the flow of information to the individual Witness, and prefers that all instruction come through the magazines they carry door-to-door. Without this form of control, even as they themselves admit, they would believe just the same as other Bible believers.

My hope is that there will be a day in each of their lives when the Watchtower magazine is no longer needed, and they can go to college, vote for office, and contribute money and time to other, more vital causes in their community. More than likely they will then cease to be persecuted, except in a few societies more authoritarian than their own.

Sincerely,Danny Haszard

References:

http://www.freeminds.org (Watchtower watchers dissident site)

http://www.silentlambs.org (latest news on the pedophile child abuse lawsuits against the Watchtower)

[Muslimwoman]

Thank you 17th, am off to rewrite the theory of relativity

By the way, your new avatar is giving me headache and your hampster has had too many carrots, it's gone hyper.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Neemai

"Not to kill, and to abstain from blood."

Wouldn't a Vegetarian diet be just as applicable to the above statments?

Why avoid blood transfusions, but then kill and eat animals whose meat contains blood?

...?

Neemai

because the bible says we can eat meat , but first it should be bled not just strangled.