Who Are They? - Page 5

Muslimwoman · 07-31-2007, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

So much trouble over a piece of fruit. Seems to me someone would have to be incredibly grouchy, petty and bored and really not a very nice person at all to behave like this. So why is it acceptable in a God?

So if you say to a child, go and play with anything you like but do not touch my razor and they touch it and you walk into the room and they are playing with your razor, would you punish them for disobeying you?

Muslimwoman · 07-31-2007, 10:32 AM

bumping my post, it is not showing.

Tao_Equus · 07-31-2007, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

So if you say to a child, go and play with anything you like but do not touch my razor and they touch it and you walk into the room and they are playing with your razor, would you punish them for disobeying you?

How responsible a parent would I be to leave a razor where my children could play with it? How justified would I be in punishing them for it if I was so stupid?

There are bits of the Bible that to me reek of theopolitical insertion with the sole purpose of telling the masses that to think for themselves is wrong. This is one of them. Eating from "the tree of knowledge" becomes the greatest sin, so why were we given large brains? No the fact is the Priests invented that. Its an authority enforcing psychological tool for them to keep the uneducated masses compliant and reverent. Nothing more.

Tao

17th Angel · 07-31-2007, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

How responsible a parent would I be to leave a razor where my children could play with it? How justified would I be in punishing them for it if I was so stupid?

There are bits of the Bible that to me reek of theopolitical insertion with the sole purpose of telling the masses that to think for themselves is wrong. This is one of them. Eating from "the tree of knowledge" becomes the greatest sin, so why were we given large brains? No the fact is the Priests invented that. Its an authority enforcing psychological tool for them to keep the uneducated masses compliant and reverent. Nothing more.

Tao

Because that razor was in reach of the child, the parent is "stupid"? That's just bollocks..... Are parent's like all seeing all remembering all knowing beings? No... They are humans ;/ Easily can forget **** like that. Kids explore and reach and find all sorts of stuff... So to forewarn a child not to touch something is far from stupid..... isn't it.

Muslimwoman · 07-31-2007, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

There are bits of the Bible that to me reek of theopolitical insertion with the sole purpose of telling the masses that to think for themselves is wrong. This is one of them. Eating from "the tree of knowledge" becomes the greatest sin, so why were we given large brains? No the fact is the Priests invented that. Its an authority enforcing psychological tool for them to keep the uneducated masses compliant and reverent. Nothing more.

Tao

I don't disagree with you Tao but are you not assuming the Tree of Knowledge is about well quite frankly knowledge, learning? I am not very good at Genesis (perhaps BB or Dauer could help us out) but it is my understanding that the only knowledge held in the tree was the knowledge of good and evil/bad, which is why Adam & Eve (pbut) became ashamed of their nakedness after eating from the tree. It basically gave them a concience, where they were 'innocent' before eating from the tree. So surely the lesson is not "do not try to learn". It may have been used that way by the Church at times but that is not, I believe, what the scripture says.

Tao_Equus · 07-31-2007, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Because that razor was in reach of the child, the parent is "stupid"? That's just bollocks..... Are parent's like all seeing all remembering all knowing beings? No... They are humans ;/ Easily can forget **** like that. Kids explore and reach and find all sorts of stuff... So to forewarn a child not to touch something is far from stupid..... isn't it.

All seeing? No. But I know mine never got near my razor or drugs or bleach or anything else because I took precautions against such eventualities. And I aint a God. Would you keep an apple tree in your garden that grew beautiful looking fruit that were toxic to your children? No you wouldn't, you'd chop it down. So dont give me that "ohh you didn't heed the warning crap" thats part of the politics of control I talk about. Blame shifting in a loaded game.

Tao

Tao_Equus · 07-31-2007, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I don't disagree with you Tao but are you not assuming the Tree of Knowledge is about well quite frankly knowledge, learning? I am not very good at Genesis (perhaps BB or Dauer could help us out) but it is my understanding that the only knowledge held in the tree was the knowledge of good and evil/bad, which is why Adam & Eve (pbut) became ashamed of their nakedness after eating from the tree. It basically gave them a concience, where they were 'innocent' before eating from the tree. So surely the lesson is not "do not try to learn". It may have been used that way by the Church at times but that is not, I believe, what the scripture says.

Is it possible to think rationally without the qualitative application of right and wrong, good/evil? I think not.

Tao

17th Angel · 07-31-2007, 02:01 PM

It wasn't toxic.... It was simply an apple tree.... IF you are in charge of all... You have made beings of free will, intelligence and perfection... You need to draw a line and say "don't cross this line." If you say... Here you go, have this planet Earth do whatever the fluck ya want!

Where have you proved that you are the governor? You haven't you need something to show you are the boss... That was a simple tree... Look you have EVERYTHING, every single thing in this world is your's for the taking... BUT! I am the freaking boss awright sun shine? Do not touch my apple tree..... (not asking for much really was it?)

If you came to my house.... Where I am el capitanoooooo! You would respect my space... As you would expect others in your domain to respect yours. Want some lunch? Sure there is a sandwhich in the fridge help yourself.... And you start tucking into my food that I haven't offered you... That is taking the piss.

Tao_Equus · 07-31-2007, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

It wasn't toxic.... It was simply an apple tree.... IF you are in charge of all... You have made beings of free will, intelligence and perfection... You need to draw a line and say "don't cross this line." If you say... Here you go, have this planet Earth do whatever the fluck ya want!

Where have you proved that you are the governor? You haven't you need something to show you are the boss... That was a simple tree... Look you have EVERYTHING, every single thing in this world is your's for the taking... BUT! I am the freaking boss awright sun shine? Do not touch my apple tree..... (not asking for much really was it?)

If you came to my house.... Where I am el capitanoooooo! You would respect my space... As you would expect others in your domain to respect yours. Want some lunch? Sure there is a sandwhich in the fridge help yourself.... And you start tucking into my food that I haven't offered you... That is taking the piss.

As MW pointed out they had no concept of right and wrong till AFTER they ate... so... well.... someone has a sick sense of humour or is damned stupid.

Tao

17th Angel · 07-31-2007, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

As MW pointed out they had no concept of right and wrong till AFTER they ate... so... well.... someone has a sick sense of humour or is damned stupid.

Tao

But, they were told NOT to touch, they have intelligence... They have perfection they also know where they stand... This is a higher superior being and is their boss.. He says don't do it.... You have the free will to do so or not.... And they did. Then again I would have done the same snake or not... WHATEVER YOU DO, do -not- press that button......

*presses the big red do not push button....*

Dondi · 07-31-2007, 02:29 PM

Quote:

There are bits of the Bible that to me reek of theopolitical insertion with the sole purpose of telling the masses that to think for themselves is wrong. This is one of them. Eating from "the tree of knowledge" becomes the greatest sin, so why were we given large brains? No the fact is the Priests invented that. Its an authority enforcing psychological tool for them to keep the uneducated masses compliant and reverent. Nothing more.

This is not about controlling the masses. I cannot understand why people believe that the OT scriptures were just a tool for the priests to manipulate the people. You make it sound like it was some sort of "1984" society where Big Brother is watching. In the first place, if the Torah was written by a group of priests for that purpose, what would they possibly have to gain? The Levites owned no land and what earnings they did receive came from the mere 10% of the rest of the tribes. Why only 10%? And if they wanted power, why didn't they make it a requirement that the King of Israel be from tribe of Levi? If you are going to make blanket statements on the intentions of the priests, you are going to have to be more convincing on motive here.

On the issue of the Tree of Knowledge, it isn't knowledge that is at issue, it is the matter of discernment between right and wrong. There is nothing wrong with knowledge. I know that murder is wrong and I haven't killed anyone. I know that it is wrong because there is a law against murder and I know there are consequences attached to committing murder. But there is a difference between head knowledge and experiential knowledge. Adam and Eve knew it would be wrong to disobey God by eating the fruit, but when they entered the realm of that experential knowledge of disobedience, they discovered just how wrong they were. They overstepped the boundaries of where God placed them. Those boundaries were designed not to limit our thinking, but to be in the place that gives us the most fulfillment in life. When we are obedient to the commandments of God, we will enjoy peace and contentment and satisfaction in our lives. When we overstep those commands, we'll end up in turmoil and dischord and misery. If God created us, then there are certain parameters for which we will operated most efficiently. And it is within this operation where we will find the love of God and love for our neighbor. If all you see is a bunch of rules and regulations, you've missed the point.

Neemai · 07-31-2007, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

He says don't do it.... You have the free will to do so or not....

The main theme of the story appears to be free-will, and our relationship with God. God wants us to use our free-will to love him, but we can wander away into this world of duality to taste happiness and distress 'independently' of Him if we really want to. If He made us all love Him, then it wouldn't really be love.

I wonder if this is really a story about the first historical humans in existence, or instead is it actually the story of how each of us used our free-will to leave God to come to this world? Just a speculation - shoot it down at will if required.

... Neemai

mee · 07-31-2007, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

So much trouble over a piece of fruit. Seems to me someone would have to be incredibly grouchy, petty and bored and really not a very nice person at all to behave like this. So why is it acceptable in a God?

because its not just about a piece of Fruit, its about the issue of universal sovreignty. and yes , much trouble has happened because of it .

Muslimwoman · 07-31-2007, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neemai

If He made us all love Him, then it wouldn't really be love.

Very, very well said Neemai.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neemai

I wonder if this is really a story about the first historical humans in existence, or instead is it actually the story of how each of us used our free-will to leave God to come to this world? Just a speculation - shoot it down at will if required.

I hope I would never shoot anyone's ideas down, heavens know I have some odd ones of my own. I can't imagine I would ever 'decide' to leave G-d, the idea is giving me brain freeze. Of course I have no idea what form my soul takes or how it all works. I prefer to see it as a big test, I have been given free will and it is up to me whether I use that to satisfy myself in this life or the next.

Pico · 07-31-2007, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neemai

I wonder if this is really a story about the first historical humans in existence, or instead is it actually the story of how each of us used our free-will to leave God to come to this world? Just a speculation - shoot it down at will if required.

... Neemai

Well the way the entire book of Genesis is written is a book of history, not poetry or metaphor. It plainly states that the first 3 chapters are about the first people God created. The first historical humans in existence.

Jesus himself talked of Genesis as it was literal history, and He was there, after all. Not only that, but there is no where in the Bible that refers to Genesis as anything but literal history.