Who Are They? - Page 7

mee · 08-01-2007, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Show me one copy of Genesis that is written, printed or published by anyone other than man.

(2 Peter 1:21) For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit............... the first ever prophecy in the bible is in the book of Genesis .......... Genesis 3;15 and this prophecy runs through the whole of the bible from Genesis to revelation . and now in these last days we are well along into bible prophecy, and the understanding about this and other prophecies is abundant indeed . and the revealing goes on ,Daniel 12;4 litening to the channel that Jesus is revealing many things to brings understanding indeed Matthew 24;45-47

Tao_Equus · 08-01-2007, 11:46 AM

What I set out to say I repeat now for clarity. The story of Adam and Eve and the Tree of Life have a much older history than the Old Testament. The origins of the story being many the myths probably had many meanings. In the Old Testament the story is used to infer Original Sin on man. Such a notion is an important psychological device. Remove it and the Church loses it authority to guide us to salvation from our sinful state. Remove it and God is not a cruel, spiteful creature who leaves razors lying around for his children to play with. Lose it and we are not sinners but children free to grow and learn without handicap. Free to abandon doctrine and to live by our hearts.

As long as we view any holy book as literal and deny that any person/group doctored the text to suit its needs, provided interpretations that were biased to leading people down a certain thought path, we are being naive. We do not need to be evil sinners from the start and I suggest we are not.

Tao

Tao_Equus · 08-01-2007, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pico

Edit 2: Hey, I just found an article about Moses.

Pico,

If you want to know the truth I suggest you look for independent sources. A site that calls itself "believing in Genesis" is hardly impartial. Reading the article I, without any cross references at all, found several bits that were patently inaccurate, such as dating of the pyramids. The wording is loaded with unsupported references to "most" or "many" or "all" without any citing of who these most many or all are. Classic BS technique for those that have no evidence but want it to sound like they do.

Pico this board is not the place to continue discussing with me. I am not a Christian. If you really want to discuss origins with me and others I suggest we start a new thread in another area.

Regards

Tao

Muslimwoman · 08-02-2007, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

I'd love to see thousands of concurrent non-biblical references to back up the Gospels.

I would really like to all the Gospels that were not included in the Bible. I think they would be a fascinating read.

flowperson · 08-02-2007, 03:04 AM

Hi MW...salaam

There' much more to I Brian's creation of a website than the forums, which I might add were especially created for naughty boys to flirt with forbidden women:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/...ity/apocrypha/

Lots to read here...enjoy yourself !

flow....

Muslimwoman · 08-02-2007, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flowperson

Lots to read here...enjoy yourself !

flow....

Salaam Flow

Oh WOWEE I never knew that was there, thank you so much, you are such a gem. Metaphoric hug.

I am such a happy bunny.

Pico · 08-02-2007, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Salaam Flow

Oh WOWEE I never knew that was there, thank you so much, you are such a gem. Metaphoric hug.

I am such a happy bunny.

I like the Apocalypse of Peter. At the end Jesus tells Peter a BIG secret that (obviously) Peter spills the beans about. One of the reason it wasn't included in the Bible is for the same reason Jesus told Peter not to tell anyone.

One thing a leader at my Church informed me of was that the Books of the New Testament were already being circulated and used by the early church long before the entire Bible was compiled (I think as early as the 1st century). And that the Apocrypha is a bunch of writings that had some really good stuff in there, but was not concluded to be 100% divinely inspired like the biblical canon.

Muslimwoman · 08-02-2007, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pico

One thing a leader at my Church informed me of was that the Books of the New Testament were already being circulated and used by the early church long before the entire Bible was compiled (I think as early as the 1st century). And that the Apocrypha is a bunch of writings that had some really good stuff in there, but was not concluded to be 100% divinely inspired like the biblical canon.

Hi Pico

I would like to ask what may seem a rude question but I am genuinely interested. I understand that the 4 Gospels included in the Bible were written by 4 of the Disciples of Jesus (pbuh) and were simply companions of Jesus(pbuh) telling his story. May I then ask what makes you believe they are Divinely inspired?

MW

Pico · 08-02-2007, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Hi Pico

I would like to ask what may seem a rude question but I am genuinely interested. I understand that the 4 Gospels included in the Bible were written by 4 of the Disciples of Jesus (pbuh) and were simply companions of Jesus(pbuh) telling his story. May I then ask what makes you believe they are Divinely inspired?

MW

Well all 4 of them are not written by Jesus' disciples. John, and Matthew were his disciples. Luke, however was an historian, and he says at the beginning of the book of Luke that he is writing to his friend Theophilus and that he has carefully investigated the accounts from Jesus' disciples and other eyewitnesses from the beginning so that he may be reassured of what he was taught. Eyewitness accounts are very compelling in a court of law. The sequel to the book of Luke is the book of Acts (short for Acts of the Apostles), also written by Luke, which chronicles the formation of the early church. The book of Mark I've read was written by Mark, who was a penman for the apostle Peter.

As for how they were divinely inspired I do not know the criteria that was used for the early church to decide what was divinely inspired. But what I do know is that the people back then had a much closer relationship with Jesus and God through the Holy Spirit than many people do now (because remember, many of them were eye witnesses to Jesus after all). I know this because of their ability to perform miracles, prophecy, and speak in tounges (among many other spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit) which the power to do that is given to us by the Holy Spirit. I have actually heard of accounts of people in prayer groups who suddenly start speaking in tounges (which would probably freak me out if i were there lol).

Granted this information about the people's intimacy with God, I do not doubt that they would be able to tell which were 100% divinely inspired, and I'm sure the Holy Spirit (and God) would let them know.

Muslimwoman · 08-02-2007, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pico

I have actually heard of accounts of people in prayer groups who suddenly start speaking in tounges (which would probably freak me out if i were there lol).

Thank you for the explanation Pico. I think after I had finished freaking out I would strongly suggest they went and had a nice cup of tea and a lie down (the British answer to everything).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pico

and I'm sure the Holy Spirit (and God) would let them know.

May I ask you about this. You clearly see the Holy Spirit and G-d as seperate beings, so may I ask who/what the Holy Spirit is for you (I know it's a bit daft to ask you to define the Divine but I think I know what I mean). What relationship does the Holy Spirit have with G-d?

Salaam

Pico · 08-02-2007, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

May I ask you about this. You clearly see the Holy Spirit and G-d as seperate beings, so may I ask who/what the Holy Spirit is for you (I know it's a bit daft to ask you to define the Divine but I think I know what I mean). What relationship does the Holy Spirit have with G-d?

Salaam

Well the Holy Spirit is God. I say the "Holy Spirit and God" in the same way that Jesus refers to God the Father as God. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of God that lives in each of us who accept is gift of forgiveness, for God, through Jesus' sacrifice, cleans us of our sin giving us a pure heart where the Holy Spirit dwells. He talks to us, and convicts us of our sin which leads us to repentance. The Holy Spirit knows God's thoughts (for he is God) and works through us to bring God (the Father's) will to completion. In the New Testament (and Jesus, too) when someone refers to God, they usually mean God the Father.

The trinity is something that a lot of people have a hard time grasping, which is understandable because God is so far beyond us. And all understanding of God's ways come from the Holy Spirit. So I guess what I'm saying is that in order to really understand God, the knowledge has to be given to you by the Holy Spirit (of God) but the only way to receive the Holy Spirit is by accepting Jesus as your savior, which has to be done by faith. That is one thing the Bible repeatedly emphasizes on is that faith comes first, everything else comes as a result of that faith.

Muslimwoman · 08-02-2007, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pico

God is so far beyond us.

Ameen to that.

So do you think that our 'souls' are the Holy Spirit? Sorry if that sounds rude, it is not meant to be. Obviously I have real trouble understanding the trinity and each person I speak to seems to explain it a slightly different way.

Pico · 08-02-2007, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Ameen to that.

So do you think that our 'souls' are the Holy Spirit? Sorry if that sounds rude, it is not meant to be. Obviously I have real trouble understanding the trinity and each person I speak to seems to explain it a slightly different way.

No not rude at all. I understand that. God is a personal God and works differently in everyone, thus i can understand that everyone's understanding of the trinity is different. I guess in a way our souls consist of God's very own Holy Spirit since we were originally created in his image, and since Jesus' sacrifice cleanses us of our sin, the Holy Spirit can dwell in us since our hearts are made pure by God and Jesus' sacrifice; as the Bible says God lives within us.

The trinity is a dificult subject for many people. But it is one thing God has revealed about himself in the Bible. In Matthew when Jesus was baptized the whole of God was there:

16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." (Matthew 3:16-17).

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were present. The way I understand it is that all 3 are God in nature, they are one, but distinct in role and have a separate consciousness but all work together.

In the Bible Jesus says that the Father is greater than he is, but what he means is that in Position he is greater, but by nature they are the same, or "The Father and I are one" as Jesus said. Jesus submits himself to his Father's will: "Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." (Matthew 26:39)

Jesus, being God, became human and lived the human life perfectly and set the example. This included praying a lot (and at all times), being selfless, and submitting himself to the Father's will. In the verse I quoted form Matthew Jesus was expressing his humanity by saying that (just like humans) he was scared and didn't want what was going to happen (being the subject of God wrath for mankind's sin), but he still said "not as I will, but as you will." Showing he was in utterly submitted to the Father's will.

BlaznFattyz · 08-02-2007, 08:58 AM

Quote:

So do you think that our 'souls' are the Holy Spirit? Obviously I have real trouble understanding the trinity and each person I speak to seems to explain it a slightly different way.

our souls are individual creations of god, they are spirits that return to god for judgement. the holy spirit is the spirit of god, that is also god, that is also a person in the sense that he instructs, he comforts, he grieves, he has a will, he inspires, and of course he testifies of jesus christ, the son of god. so if we go to church or a synagogue and we pray, it is the holy spirit itself that intercedes for us with groanings which cannot be uttered--these are things of spirit, that go beyond that which is confined to our mind or by our sinful nature that cannot approach our holy god. because he knows our deepest most needs before we even say it. and if we read scriptures, or a prophet has ever raised a question to god, or a king or leader has asked for guidance from god, it is the holy spirit that has instructed or has put it in the heart of them to ask because god desired it so he may reveal the truth to them about god and his salvation and love for all of us--he finds a way to have a personal relationship with us and part of that is through his holy spirit.

Pico · 08-02-2007, 09:08 AM

I can personally say I've experienced the "groanings of the spirit." I've prayed for friends I felt deeply troubled about and intently wanted God to help them and I can feel in the center of my chest (behind the sternum) a force aching and pulling at it. I knew it was the Holy Spirit groaning and grieving for them.