Who Are They? - Page 9

17th Angel · 08-02-2007, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

So why don't the Christians or Jews follow this? Can you remember where this is in the Bible?

Two or so years having is rammed down me throat? Sure can... lol... Lev 17:10-11 and 17:13-14 ... It seriously stems just from that..
(how about a bit of complication??? JW's believe in no spiritual soul, once you die thats it you remain in the memory of Jah.... No floaty floaty woooo ghosties... Nuffin.. BUT! BUT! Got to have a but or two.... In lev it says the main reason for not consuming the blood is because it holds the beings soul... So are there souls??? Also it is speaking of a hunter.... Hunting? animals..... So animals? Do they have souls?)

Why only them? Because they are humans

Why do only the Jew's wear those hats? Why do the catholics put so much pride in a cross and place a human as a rank higher than all others? Why did only Joseph Smith see the golden plates from god? How did hubbard find out about the electo metres?? Because they are humans... Just sticking to only one religion you see a wide range of stuff... Jesus is god... NOOOO Jesus is his son... The son is a dove and the holy spirit and that is god... What? The simple concept of religion has always been there, but we modify it over the years and go on modifying it....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

That is the first time I have ever heard that. I have been given loads of blood, during a major operation and have since given blood for years, no-one ever said I couldn't and when I do they never ask me if I have ever received blood.

Just giving you the "standard" but simple JW response

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

But the operation could have gone wrong and this lady and/or her baby may have lost their lives. I think I just don't get the willingness to die, when it is not strictly necessary, it almost seems like suicide - do JW's think suicide is a sin?

Yes... No matter what, life is life... It shouldn't be killed. But, lol there IS A BUT!!!

If it means you have to break the laws of Jah, then it isn't right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Would they have even known about blood transfusion in those days? I may have to go and look that up, as I know blood letting was an issue but not sure about transfusion.

No they took something from something and made it something.... You see? lol.. Like where does it say you can't smoke crack rock? It doesn't because it simply wasn't around when this book was made, they take elements of something else and that is how you come to your law....

Muslimwoman · 08-02-2007, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

BUT! BUT! Got to have a but or two.... In lev it says the main reason for not consuming the blood is because it holds the beings soul... So are there souls??? Also it is speaking of a hunter.... Hunting? animals..... So animals? Do they have souls?)

I can see where this stems from now, as religious butchers bleed the animal before we can eat it, therefore not consuming the blood. Can't quite grasp how this leaps to no blood transfusion but hey ho, as you say we are human and therefore nake some bizarre leaps in order to back up our arguments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Just giving you the "standard" but simple JW response

But they don't actually have anything to back that response up, as it is simply not true in reality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Yes... No matter what, life is life... It shouldn't be killed. But, lol there IS A BUT!!!

If it means you have to break the laws of Jah, then it isn't right.

Ah the good old religious BUT syndrome, you would think someone would come up with a cure for that. Rather like so many arguments in Islam, it is circular and going nowhere. If you believe it is the word of G-d then anything is ok, even if others can clearly see that your interpretation is a bit wonky.

17th Angel · 08-02-2007, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I can see where this stems from now, as religious butchers bleed the animal before we can eat it, therefore not consuming the blood. Can't quite grasp how this leaps to no blood transfusion but hey ho, as you say we are human and therefore nake some bizarre leaps in order to back up our arguments.

Indeed, there are small TRACES of this in other religions and such, but they take it to the extreme.... Blood from any animal that includes the human... It's a no no... And as this is the word of Jah they will not break this. As it is also said in the bible, he he knows the law of jah but breaks it, is worse than the one who breaks it but doesn't know it... *nods his head*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

But they don't actually have anything to back that response up, as it is simply not true in reality.

Welcome to religion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Ah the good old religious BUT syndrome, you would think someone would come up with a cure for that. Rather like so many arguments in Islam, it is circular and going nowhere. If you believe it is the word of G-d then anything is ok, even if others can clearly see that your interpretation is a bit wonky.

Yes, If Jah wills it, then it is to be done.... They will not vote, they will not take a job which has even a small connection to any "false" religion... They will not enter politics, they will not 'salute the flag' They will not be in the army/police anything like that... All of this isn't what their god will's.

One guy I know was a window cleaner lol.... And he got asked to come clean some windows he was like, sure no problem and as he got there... Seeing it was a methodist church he refused to clean them and left.... Now to me that is freaking rude and bad practice, I'd of slapped him..... But to them.... That is like going out for a few drinks with the devil and then going around killing people and stuff lol....

Muslimwoman · 08-02-2007, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Yes, If Jah wills it, then it is to be done.... They will not vote, they will not take a job which has even a small connection to any "false" religion... They will not enter politics, they will not 'salute the flag' They will not be in the army/police anything like that... All of this isn't what their god will's.

They are starting to sound like Quakers, as much as I respect Quakers, at least they don't try to force their views on others and I believe do not rely on state funding for anything, so good luck to them.

So what does their G-d will them to do? If they feel everything is so evil or connected to evil, why do they not segregate themselves as the Quakers do?

17th Angel · 08-02-2007, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

They are starting to sound like Quakers, as much as I respect Quakers, at least they don't try to force their views on others and I believe do not rely on state funding for anything, so good luck to them.

So what does their G-d will them to do? If they feel everything is so evil or connected to evil, why do they not segregate themselves as the Quakers do?

I don't really know that much about Quakers... Apart from they make good oats.. So I couldn't say......

What does their god will?

Obviously to obey humans laws that do not conflict with his own laws... Such as..... Matt 22:20-21

But mainly.... Be like Jesus, is there way... Go teach the crowds... the "true" teachings that please god. Put the words of the book from mere words to actions.... And to the best they can to what the bible says...

BlaznFattyz · 08-02-2007, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

They are starting to sound like Quakers, as much as I respect Quakers, at least they don't try to force their views on others and I believe do not rely on state funding for anything, so good luck to them.

So what does their G-d will them to do? If they feel everything is so evil or connected to evil, why do they not segregate themselves as the Quakers do?

we are to love one another and help each other--and yes choose life. god is a god of love and life. and there is not greater love than for a man to give his life for his brother. if we do not defend our wives and children from an attacker, likewise if we do not offer up blood to those that are in need and dying, then we have done nothing to defend life, and we have not shown love for one another when the opportunity presented itself. god has given us authority and intelligence to find ways to take care of each other and the world. we either do it to the best of our god given ability, or we sit on the sidelines and criticize.

mee · 08-02-2007, 07:34 PM

for those who are interested to know , here are the bible verses about the blood issue . and yes it is also important to abstain from blood for christians.
For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If YOU carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to you!"ACTS 15;28-29 Not only are christians commanded to abstain from things strangled or not bled, But to abstain from blood as well . so as an example, if a doctor told us to abstain from intoxicating drinks we would not inject it into our veins because the doctor means abstain from it . and these important things listed in Acts are listed along with fornication , so just as fornication is a no, no. for christians so is the abstaining from blood

(Genesis 9:4) Only flesh with its soul—its blood—YOU must not eat.

(Leviticus 3:17) "‘It is a statute to time indefinite for YOUR generations, in all YOUR dwelling places: YOU must not eat any fat or any blood at all.’"

(Leviticus 7:26) "‘And YOU must not eat any blood in any places where YOU dwell, whether that of fowl or that of beast.

(Leviticus 17:10) "‘As for any man of the house of Israel or some alien resident who is residing as an alien in YOUR midst who eats any sort of blood, I shall certainly set my face against the soul that is eating the blood, and I shall indeed cut him off from among his people.

(Deuteronomy 12:16) Only the blood YOU must not eat. On the earth you should pour it out as water.

(Deuteronomy 12:23) Simply be firmly resolved not to eat the blood, because the blood is the soul and you must not eat the soul with the flesh.

(1 Samuel 14:32) And the people began darting greedily at the spoil and taking sheep and cattle and calves and slaughtering them on the earth, and the people fell to eating along with the blood.

Muslimwoman · 08-02-2007, 08:08 PM

Hi mee

What about Peters vision in Acts 10? How do you interpt that?

Pico · 08-02-2007, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Hi mee

What about Peters vision in Acts 10? How do you interpt that?

It's like this, he laws in the Old Testament were according to the old covenant that God made with Abraham, in which God had to deal with people's wickedness. If someone wanted to get to heaven by the Old Covenant's rules they would have to obey every single one (which is utterly impossible for man to do). This was meant to point them to Jesus, who was the only person capable of fulfilling the Law (since he was God).

Jesus' sacrifice lead to the New Covenant which is the law of the Spirit. The rules of the old covenant don't apply anymore, because Jesus satisfied them. The way the New Covenant works is that one is made right by God through faith, not works (as the Old Covenant requires). But (one thing people get confused about) if one really does have faith, good works will be a natural by-product of that faith.

Edit: Paul deals with this subject of the Old Covenant and the New Covenant in the book of Galatians.
What God was saying in that vision to Peter was that the laws about unclean animals is over. The new covenant takes over and God says now that you can eat anything. All he wants is for you to give thanks to him for what he's given you.

Tao_Equus · 08-02-2007, 09:18 PM

So God did a really crap job in the first place and then changed the rules to make things easier.

Maybe we are made in his image after all.

wil · 08-02-2007, 10:00 PM

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Pico · 08-02-2007, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

So God did a really crap job in the first place and then changed the rules to make things easier.

Maybe we are made in his image after all.

You, sir, have no idea what you are talking about.

The purpose of the Old Covenant was to point us to Christ. He made it obvious that we can not make it to God on our own. Thus our need for a savior. God provided us a way out, so we have to rely on him for our salvation. God made mankind to need Him. And it's very apparent that we do need him because without him we all would perish.

Tao_Equus · 08-02-2007, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pico

You, sir, have no idea what you are talking about.

The purpose of the Old Covenant was to point us to Christ. He made it obvious that we can not make it to God on our own. Thus our need for a savior. God provided us a way out, so we have to rely on him for our salvation. God made mankind to need Him. And it's very apparent that we do need him because without him we all would perish.

Maybe. I'll take my chances though and leave my mind open to evaluate all information on its own merit. I will use lots of sources to build a picture of human and natural history. I will not put faith in spurious second hand tales. And I will not support ideas that can only claim 1 great achievement, the death of countless millions over century after century. And so I would argue without him, perhaps many more would have lived. I do not need God to be good. Believing in God does not make you good. And too often the most fervent of believers are those that use it to justify their inhumanity to man. So if I have no idea about believing then I am indeed a happy man. It means I have not been brainwashed by myself or anybody else.

Tao

Muslimwoman · 08-03-2007, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pico

Paul deals with this subject of the Old Covenant and the New Covenant in the book of Galatians.
What God was saying in that vision to Peter was that the laws about unclean animals is over. The new covenant takes over and God says now that you can eat anything. All he wants is for you to give thanks to him for what he's given you.

Thanks Pico but now I am more confused than ever. So JW's believe in the old law but not the new law that abrogates the old? Mee (who I believe is Chrstian?) also says that Christians must avoid blood, which also seems to ignore the newer law? Hmmm, I might try to play around with the theory of relativity instead, it's much easier to understand.

Could the verses about blood not be read as "do not eat/drink blood" (ie cook your meat)?

Pico · 08-03-2007, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Thanks Pico but now I am more confused than ever. So JW's believe in the old law but not the new law that abrogates the old? Mee (who I believe is Chrstian?) also says that Christians must avoid blood, which also seems to ignore the newer law? Hmmm, I might try to play around with the theory of relativity instead, it's much easier to understand.

Could the verses about blood not be read as "do not eat/drink blood" (ie cook your meat)?

I do not know what JW's believe for I am not one. I'm a Christian, and as far as I know in the New Testament it says not to consume blood.