Who is the Messiah?

Manji2012 · 09-02-2007, 07:08 AM

I am certainly no kung fu scholar on Christianity but I have the impression that the Christians explain that Jesus had fulfilled many prophecies of the Jewish texts (If you'll let me call "it" that). This is to give proof or more credit that Jesus is the Messiah.

However, I have this understanding that Jews then and today, do not consider Jesus as a Messiah of any kind. I imagine some would consider him a false prophet.

Well, anyways, is there a messiah prophesized to come and who is he suppose to be? How come Jesus never is considered as someone who fulfilled all the prophecies?

dauer · 09-02-2007, 07:27 AM

Manji,

The short answer for why he didn't isn't consider the Jewish messiah is because he never fit the Jewish definition. We don't have any idea of a second coming so it's all got to be completed in one lifetime. There are some requirements Christians hold to that Jews do not (e.g. born of a virgin, suffering servant) and some Jews hold to that Christians do not, e.g. get the Davidic monarchy started up again. We don't consider the messiah to be G!d incarnate either. One good explanation regarding the Jewish messiah is from Rambam:

The Laws Concerning Mashiach

Beliefs can vary a little from the rational to the mystical, but that gives you a general idea. Today there are also some who don't believe in the messiah, believe instead in a messianic age of peace, or understand it in still different ways, but they tend to be much looser, less focused on a single individual.

Dauer

Manji2012 · 10-29-2007, 11:22 AM

But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening
for our well-being fell upon Him, and by His scourging
we are healed.

What is the Jewish perspective of this?

Manji2012 · 10-29-2007, 11:36 AM

Psalm 51:5

Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Perhaps original sin doctrine is in Judaism and the Jews do need a Messiah to die for their sins and go to God.

or is it that, the Jewish translation is different?

How do you explain that one.

Manji2012 · 10-29-2007, 12:08 PM

you know, another question that ran through my brain was, what happened to the people in the area of Israel after the Nicea creed was finished and aclomated? How did it affect them?

I mean, I am assuming the whole council of Nicea went down some where in the area we call Italy.

Before the council of Nicea, there were many Gospels in circulation about Jesus.

The council selected the ones they wanted, made it pagan friendly, and sold it to the masses.

Those with other views got killed for it.

dauer · 10-29-2007, 04:11 PM

Quote:

But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening
for our well-being fell upon Him, and by His scourging
we are healed.

What is the Jewish perspective of this?

That's a mistranslation of the Hebrew and thus not a part of our scripture. It's also taken out of context. The servant in Isaiah is repeatedly referred to as Israel.

Quote:

Psalm 51:5

Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Perhaps original sin doctrine is in Judaism and the Jews do need a Messiah to die for their sins and go to God.

or is it that, the Jewish translation is different?

How do you explain that one.

Again it's out of context. Psalm 51 is a song of David and refers to matters in his life. He is a descendant of Ruth who was a Moabite. Jews are forbidden from marrying Moabites. Thus we arrive at that passage. (Edit: Sorry. Skimmed your translation. Born in iniquity, not sinful at birth.)

Quote:

you know, another question that ran through my brain was, what happened to the people in the area of Israel after the Nicea creed was finished and aclomated? How did it affect them?

I mean, I am assuming the whole council of Nicea went down some where in the area we call Italy.

Before the council of Nicea, there were many Gospels in circulation about Jesus.

The council selected the ones they wanted, made it pagan friendly, and sold it to the masses.

Those with other views got killed for it.

I think you might get more answers asking that on the Christian board.

bob x · 10-29-2007, 05:41 PM

Quote:

what happened to the people in the area of Israel after the Nicea creed was finished and aclomated? How did it affect them?

What happened was that Constantine's mother Helena went on a triumphant tour of Israel, "finding" by her visions all kinds of relics like the True Cross and so on, and identifying the purported places where Jesus was born, and crucified, and entombed, building churches on these places to take them over for Christianity. A little later, emperor "Julian the Apostate" (a relative of Constantine's family who had never bought in to Christianity) tried to allow for non-Christian faiths to still have room to breathe, and in particular lifted the ban on Jews returning to Jerusalem and funded a project to rebuild the Temple; but the construction project did not go well, and Julian soon got killed fighting the Persians, and that was the end of tolerance efforts.

Manji2012 · 10-30-2007, 05:41 AM

Does anything by Dr. Michael L. Brown seems threating?

bob x · 10-30-2007, 07:06 PM

Never heard of him.

Manji2012 · 10-30-2007, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob x

Never heard of him.

I guess he is another on board with the Jews for Jesus campaign. I wonder when this thing started in modern times, Jews for Jesus. the 60's?

http://www.ilifetv.com/thinkitthru/
Is Jesus The Jewish Messiah Presentation at USC

The above links you can see above. I am trying to find some of his arguments and bring them here for analysis. There is a debate with Rabbi and him too. I can not wait to watch.

Think It Thru

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine · 10-30-2007, 09:37 PM

Jews for Jesus is not a legitimate Jewish group (they are Baptist, I believe.) bananabrain is far more knowledgeable about them than I am.

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

dauer · 10-31-2007, 05:39 PM

Yeah,

Jews for Jesus is actually an evangelical Christian group. Their theology is evangelical. They're funded by evangelicals. It's really a bit of the old wolf in sheep's clothing. It's just a way to target Jews. There are other messianic groups that exist for different reasons, like getting to the roots of Christianity. They are still Christian groups but me, personally, I don't find them as particularly offensive. Yes, it's irritating if they claim to be Jewish, but at least they're not going out of their way to convert Jews.

wil · 10-31-2007, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manji2012

I am certainly no kung fu scholar on Christianity but I have the impression that the Christians explain that Jesus had fulfilled many prophecies of the Jewish texts (If you'll let me call "it" that). This is to give proof or more credit that Jesus is the Messiah.

However, I have this understanding that Jews then and today, do not consider Jesus as a Messiah of any kind. I imagine some would consider him a false prophet.

Well, anyways, is there a messiah prophesized to come and who is he suppose to be? How come Jesus never is considered as someone who fulfilled all the prophecies?

Jesus has been considered, and rejected as the prophesied messiah. (by Jews that is) You got to remember, according to the book Jesus said he came to fulfill prophecy, so being a well read Jew he made sure he gave it a shot. I need to ride in on an ass?? go upto that house and get me an ass...

Those that believe Jesus is messiah and fulfilled the prophecies of the old testament are called Christians, those that follow the old testament but don't are called Jews, and then there are those that believe in some later prophets...and then there is the rest of the world. It appears Abrahamic Religions are the current majority but not by much...