Who is Vajrasattva?

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

*humbly approaches both Vajradhara and rdwillia, two :kitty:s in hand, which the humans are handed*

I am, alas, like the proverbial fourth son (the one who is not able to ask a question) concerning this thread. I have so many questions that are jumbled up inside my head about both Buddhist empowerment and the Boddhisatva vows that I cannot formulate any of them. If there aren't any restrictions, could either one of you explain them?

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Phyllis,

thank you for the post and the kind words

Originally Posted by Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

If there aren't any restrictions, could either one of you explain them?

is there anything in particular that you'd like to know?

metta,

~v

[rdwillia]

Hello Phyllis,

Thank you for your interest.

Originally Posted by Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

I have so many questions that are jumbled up inside my head about both Buddhist empowerment and the Boddhisatva vows that I cannot formulate any of them. If there aren't any restrictions, could either one of you explain them?
Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

As Vaj implied, there is a lot that one could explain. However, I have an apparent inability to be so brief. Let's see if I can explain this better than some of my other attempts about some other topics.

To give you a very general (very general and very simple) overview... A Buddhist empowerment, very simply put, is a ceremony that is meant to bring you closer to a certain Buddha or Bodhisattva (protectors, foe destroyers, etc.). Usually (hopefully) by means of someone who has a direct lineage connection to Buddha Shakyamuni himself, so as to help one to feel the presense of that diety, almost a formal introduction, and to help one feel that the chosen deity is actually bestowing their attributes to you, to help you in your practice. In the case of the Vajrasattva empowerment I attended, purification. There is also a Tantric side of this that takes it to a whole other level, so I'll stop there, as A.) I have not had a Tantric empowerment and therefore don't practice the Tantric side of the empowerment, and B.) This does go into restricted territory.

The Bodhisattva vows are just that, vowing to become a bodhisattva; someone who strives to attain enlightenment for the sake of all other sentient beings. The bodhisattva is the one who attains enlightenment but vows to stick around to help all others cross the vast oceans of samsara (the beginningless and endless (until now) life-cycle). The vows generally entail an extensive list of downfalls (46 secondary and 18 root). So the vows basically serve as a guide on how to live for one striving to become a bodhisattva.

A good resource for the interested reader, although not of my tradition;
http://www.bodhicitta.net/BODHISATTVAVOWS.htm

Thanks again for your interest. I hope this clears things up a little. If you have any other questions, I shall do my best to answer. Take care.

~rdwillia

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

question #1: What defines a "sentient being"? I have heard the phrase numerous times but what is the "cutoff point" concerning who/what is sentient and who/what is not?

question #2: Does the "initial" empowerment have to be formal? I don't mean "Send $$$ to Bogus PseudoBuddhist Priest and get Instant Empowerment," or anything like with one of bb's banes, the Kaballah Center, but more along the lines of some of the ecclectic neopagans who are "self-initiates". (My sincerest apologies for the use of outside terms, but I'm at a loss for words to describe what I'm trying to say within your particular spiritualities, so I'm using words that I have a grasp of, albeit tenuous.)

question #3: I believe that, from what I've read between the two of you, one can have the "empowerment" without the Vow of Bodhisattva, but can the reverse be true; i.e. you can take the Vow of Bodhisattva without going through the "empowerment"?

I'll leave it at this for right now, okay? That way, I can try to pull more questions out of the morass of my thought processes.

Your "student" with :kitty:s
Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Phyllis,

thank you for the post and the interesting questions.

Originally Posted by Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

question #1: What defines a "sentient being"? I have heard the phrase numerous times but what is the "cutoff point" concerning who/what is sentient and who/what is not?

excellent question since this is emphasized quite a bit in the Suttas/Sutras.

for all intents and purposes a sentient being is a being which is possessed of consciousness, however, in our usage of the term, we mean to indicate humans, animals, insects and so forth. basically, any creature with a higher cognitive function. so, something like a bacteria isn't considered sentient whereas an ant is.

in a general sense, the term is meant to be inclusive of the Buddhist cosmology which has 6 forms of sentient being, namely, gods, asuras (sort of like Greek Titans) humans, animals, hungry ghosts and hell beings.

of course, these are my own views predicated on my very superficial understanding of the Dharma.

question #2: Does the "initial" empowerment have to be formal?

i'll break this one up a bit.

well... yes, in a nutshell.

I don't mean "Send $$$ to Bogus PseudoBuddhist Priest and get Instant Empowerment," or anything like with one of bb's banes, the Kaballah Center, but more along the lines of some of the ecclectic neopagans who are "self-initiates". (My sincerest apologies for the use of outside terms, but I'm at a loss for words to describe what I'm trying to say within your particular spiritualities, so I'm using words that I have a grasp of, albeit tenuous.)

this aspect of your question is quite interesting. as you may know, in the general hierarchy of Buddhism, there are monasitcs and lay people. however, what you may not know is that there is another sort of being, what we call a Solitary Realizer, a Pratyekabuddha.

when we talk about Buddhism, there are several different ways we can go about it.. we can talk about schools, like Zen or T'ien T'ai, or we can talk about the overall Vehicles, like Hinyana or Mahayana and we can also talk about the individual vehicles, the Yanas, which a being practices.

in the invidual vehicle conceptions, we find the Pratyekabuddha. these beings are, for all intents and purposes, engaging in the process of Awakening without the benefit of a teacher.

question #3: I believe that, from what I've read between the two of you, one can have the "empowerment" without the Vow of Bodhisattva, but can the reverse be true; i.e. you can take the Vow of Bodhisattva without going through the "empowerment"?

well... in short, yes, though it isn't often the situation since this process of formally taking the Bodhisattva Vow is, in and of itself, an empowerment. not of the same sort as one of the Tantric empowerments, to be sure, but an empowerment nonetheless.

i, too, am a student and am by no means a teacher! if anything i say makes sense to you, it is due to your own good karma ripening!

metta,

~v

[rdwillia]

Hello Vaj,

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

i, too, am a student and am by no means a teacher! if anything i say makes sense to you, it is due to your own good karma ripening!

Thank you for explaining so clearly what I struggle to make barely intellegeble. Someone's karma would have to be really bad to not understand that clarity.

Hello Phyllis,

Originally Posted by Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

question #3: I believe that, from what I've read between the two of you, one can have the "empowerment" without the Vow of Bodhisattva, but can the reverse be true; i.e. you can take the Vow of Bodhisattva without going through the "empowerment"?

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

well... in short, yes, though it isn't often the situation since this process of formally taking the Bodhisattva Vow is, in and of itself, an empowerment. not of the same sort as one of the Tantric empowerments, to be sure, but an empowerment nonetheless.

This is very true. In my case some very special circumstances came together to allow me to complete both of them in one day. Especially in seeing that in some cases an empowerment can last several days ending with another multi-day retreat. This was an all day event for me.

However, the Vajrasattva empowerment, being a purification practice, blends really nicely with the Bodhisattva vows. And that way, if you blow one of the secondary downfalls you know how to purify your non-virtuous actions. The other reason the Bodhisattva vows were granted was that several of us are from out of town and don't get a chance to make it to the center very often. The resident teacher took pity on us out-of-towners and granted us the vows.

As for everything else, Vajradhara sufficiently captured anything I would have said, and more.

Thank you both!

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

Originally posted by rdwillia
And that way, if you blow one of the secondary downfalls you know how to purify your non-virtuous actions.

What if one "blows" one of the primary downfalls? Does said person have to start from square one?

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

[rdwillia]

Hello Phyllis,

Originally Posted by Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

What if one "blows" one of the primary downfalls? Does said person have to start from square one?

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

Ha! First off, it is pretty difficult for one, striving sincerely, to actually breat the vows. In order to do so, not only must you incure one of the primary downfalls but it's generally only a downfall if A) you don't regard the action as wrong, B) you don't wish to abstain from the action in the future, C) you rejoice in the action, and D) you have no sense of shame or concideration for others. If one were to incur one (or more) of the primary downfalls, which included at least one of the four factors above, there is usually a (somewhat) formal confession and one can usually retake the vows.

All of this is relative to my tradition and I'm not quite sure if it differs from tradition to tradition. The thing is, with wanting to become a bodhisattva, it is actually quite difficult to break the vows because ideally, everything you do is done with a bodhichitta (spontaneous desire to become enlightened for the sake of all sentient beings) motivation.

I hope that helps. Take care,

~rdwillia

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

What if one "blows" one of the primary downfalls? Does said person have to start from square one?

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

Namaste Phyllis,

to amplify on what Rdwillia has said...

it may help to think of the Bodhisattva process as a process of ritual initiation and purification. as such, if one breaks one of the precepts, one undergoes a process of ritual re-purification to rectify the situation.

of course, i should say that both rdwillia and i practice the Varjayana as found in Tibet, as a consequence, other Vajrayana lineages may have a different understanding of some of this subject matter. of course, as an adherent, that isn't much of a concern for me... but it may be such for a more academic oriented approach

the ramifications for breaching a Bodhisattva precept is, in my school, rather dire.. as a consequence, in his seminal text, Bodhichayavaratara (The Way of the Bodhisattva) Shantideva relates that if one is not confident they can keep the precepts, it is better not to take them, than to take them and break them.... especially if that breach is intentional.

a lot of Buddhist moral and ethical concern is focused towards the intentions which underly our actions.

metta,

~v

[rdwillia]

Thanks for the amplification Vaj,

I am very familiar with Shantideva's Guide and have read several commentaries. This is one of those areas that can be interpreted very differently by different schools. Different schools can all have drastically different views on different translations. Though it sounds like our schools interpret it similarly. Before you take the vows, you make sure you can keep them, there are actually very few people breaking the vows as this, as we have both previously mentioned, involves a negative intention. I personally feel that it would actually be quite difficult to break the root downfalls if you have a pure intention to keep the vows in the first place.

However the secondary downfalls, in my school, aren't quite as serious if broken. Of course one should have the same pure intention to uphold them but they are made up of more seemingly (emphasis on 'seemingly') mundane rules, such as not indulging in frivolity. I sincerely intend to not indulge in frivolity but catch myself in the midst of frivolous actions all the time! So after some corporal punishment (this is of my own accord, it's not required or recommended by most schools ) I do a purification practice (usually Vajrasattva but also 35 confession Buddhas) and try really hard not to be frivolous, accept invitations and gifts, etc, etc. It's the little things that are sometimes difficult to remember until after you've already kinda sorta incurred a secondary downfall.

Although it should also be said that many of the vows virtually cancel each other out so that you arrive at the middle path, such as; neglecting to train in mental stabilization and becoming preoccupied with the taste of mental stabilization. Shantideva also said that a true Bodhisattva can do no wrong now can they break the vows because everything the Bodhisattva does is done with a very pure bodhichitta motivation in order to help others and everything is taken in consideration with the situation. You can't decline an invitation... out of laziness, you shouldn't acquire wealth or fame... through wrong livelihood, etc.

Thanks again.

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

Originally posted by Vajradhara
when we talk about Buddhism, there are several different ways we can go about it.. we can talk about schools, like Zen or T'ien T'ai, or we can talk about the overall Vehicles, like Hinyana or Mahayana and we can also talk about the individual vehicles, the Yanas, which a being practices.

Next question: What are some of the differences between schools/Vehicles? I'm somewhat familiar with Zen (zazen), but what is T'ien T'ai? What are some of the differences between Hinyana, Mahayana and the third Vehicle (which I can't recall the name of offhand)?

Sorry.

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

RDwillia, thank you for the explanation and through overview (sorry i didn't post sooner, i'm going to try to change my approach to posts i concur with

Originally Posted by Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

Next question: What are some of the differences between schools/Vehicles? I'm somewhat familiar with Zen (zazen), but what is T'ien T'ai? What are some of the differences between Hinyana, Mahayana and the third Vehicle (which I can't recall the name of offhand)?

Sorry.

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

Hi Phyllis,

for ease of our discussion, we can consider that Buddha Dharma has had, what we term, Three Turnings of the Wheel of Dharma. the "three" turnings correspond to the three Vehicles of Buddhism.

basically, we have three sorts of views, which we call Vehicles.

a Vehicle, in our terms, is a systematic method of practice which most closely corresponds to the capacities of the being.

thus, we have three main systems:

Hinyana (Lesser Vehicle)
Mahayana (Greater Vehicle)
Vajrayana (Diamond Vehicle)

within each of these Vehicles, are multiple "yanas" or schools, with the exception of Hinyana. the historical Hinyana had, at one point, 17 different schools... today, there is one left, called Theraveda. as a consequence, one often finds the term Hinyana to be equilivant to Theraveda, and vice versa. in many bits of literature the whole things is simply referred to as Theravedan Buddhism.

to my mind, this is a bit of a misnomer since it ignores the existence of the other schools in an historical context.

i should explain that the designations of 'lesser' 'greater' and 'diamond' are not meant in a hierarchial way or as a way of denigrating another path, though there is certainly history that this was how some beings used the term.

all Buddhist Vehicles and yanas agree on the basics of Buddhism, namely the Four Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path, the 5 Precepts, the 6 Paramitas and so forth.

one area, however, where one can see differences in the approaches is in the aspiration aspect. for instance, though the Bodhisattva ideal exists within the Theravedan school, it is not the main point of the practice. the main point, if you will, is the Arhant. an Arhant is a being which is working towards individual liberation.

in the Mahayana view, once a being is an Arhant and enters meditive absorption, they are roused from this state by a Buddha to enter the Mahayana and work to help other beings Awaken.

the Vajrayana is, in some aspects, like a superset of the Mahayana in that it agrees with the Mahayana veiw however, rather than teaching that Awakening will happen over "three incalcuable kalpas" the Vajrayana says that a being can Awaken in one life span.

perhaps, the greatest area of difference to be found in Buddhism, isn't so much in the doctrines or fundamentals of the practice, rather, in the philosophical schools.

the Buddhist scripture is divided into three main sections, the rules for the monastics (the Vinya) the teachings of the Buddha (Sutras) and the philosohpical grounding of the teachings (the Abidharma).

i've posted some stuff relating to the various philosophical veiws in Buddhadharma, in the Tibetan view, here:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/...read.php?t=719

with regards to schools within a Vehicle, most beings are familiar with the Theravedan school and Zen, which is a school of the Mahayana. there can be alot of schools within a Vehicle

Buddha Shakyamuni taught that there are 84,000 Dharma doors, each corresponding to the capacities and needs of an individual being. thus, we would expect to find a great many schools and different approaches to the process of Awakening.

dunno if that helps or not!

metta,

~v

[rdwillia]

Thanks again Vaj,

Did you notice how I waited for you to answer this one? I had to really excersize my patience as I knew you'd have a much better answer than I. Truly a beautiful explanation.

As a side-note, I've always wondered if Hinyanists call themselves the "lesser vehicle" but was never driven to ask. From my view it would be akward to explain to someone what it all meant as a Hinyanist... "Well, I'm part of the lesser vehicle, we're typically... well... lesser than the other vehicles..." It almost sounds like you're (not you personally, obviously) saying "we're typically more lazy and have lower expectations than other Buddhists." I understand that this is not the way it is meant to be, but it's just my musing on how I imagine a newbie might see it. I don't remember what I thought when I first read that but it's kind of a funny thought.

Thanks again!

~rdwillia

[Vajradhara]

Namaste rdwillia,

thank you for the post and the kind words.

Originally Posted by rdwillia

Thanks again Vaj,

Did you notice how I waited for you to answer this one? I had to really excersize my patience as I knew you'd have a much better answer than I. Truly a beautiful explanation.

thank you.

however, i would be remiss if i didn't encourage you to answer as well. though we both have a strong Vajrayana bent, our views and understandings are different and that gives, i think, a broader veiw of some of the areas... and.. heck, there is a lot i didn't touch

As a side-note, I've always wondered if Hinyanists call themselves the "lesser vehicle" but was never driven to ask.

well.. nowadays.. i wouldn't expect so... Theravedan is what i expect you'd here.. back in the day when the Hinyana had 17 schools, i suspect that it would have been more of a school sort of recognition more than anything else.

From my view it would be akward to explain to someone what it all meant as a Hinyanist... "Well, I'm part of the lesser vehicle, we're typically... well... lesser than the other vehicles..." It almost sounds like you're (not you personally, obviously) saying "we're typically more lazy and have lower expectations than other Buddhists." I understand that this is not the way it is meant to be, but it's just my musing on how I imagine a newbie might see it. I don't remember what I thought when I first read that but it's kind of a funny thought.

Thanks again!

~rdwillia

to be frank with you, when i became aware of the term, it struck me in a slightly different manner.. i read "lesser" as being a reference to the amount of beings which were able to practice it as the Theravedans tend to place a heavy emphasis on the monastic tradition whereas the Mahayana tends to place an equal empahsis on the monastics and the laiety.

you can, perhaps, imagine my surprise when people explained that some viewed it as a negative term and description!

metta,

~v

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

Next questions:

1) Can a pratyekabuddha "initiate" him-/herself from the onset or does the very first initiation have to be done by someone else? (Do you understand what I'm trying to ask?)

2) Has anybody from the Hinyana vehicle "rediscovered" any of the other schools from that vehicle or have the "lost" schools merged to become the last remaining one?

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine