Who is Vajrasattva?

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Phyllis,

thank you for the post and the good questions

Originally Posted by Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

Next questions:

1) Can a pratyekabuddha "initiate" him-/herself from the onset or does the very first initiation have to be done by someone else? (Do you understand what I'm trying to ask?)

i think i do... please correct me if i answer something you are not asking.

hmm... well... it sort of depends on ones view. from a conventional sense, yes, a Pratyekabuddha is a being which "self initates", i.e. discovers the Dharma without the benefit of a teacher or, in many cases, teachings which refer to it.

however, from a more, shall we say esoteric view, Buddhism teaches that sentient beings undergo rebirth for incalcuable eons. thus, if a being in this current arising is a Pratyekabuddha this would be indicative of their practice of the Dharma in a previous arising.

in a sense, this is the view that the Vajrayana takes with regards to its teaching of realization of Buddhahood in one arising. basically, we have practiced the Dharma for such a time that we have developed to the point where it will only take this last arising to put an end to birth, sickness, old age and death.

in the Mahayana Sutras, there is a particular sutra called the The Vajracchedika-prajna-paramita Sutra, the Diamond Perfection of Wisdom Sutra. in this Sutra it is explained that if a being has heard this teaching, it indicates that they had succesfully realized the nature of Dependent Origination and had taken the Bodhisattva Vow in a previous arising.

interestingly enough, when Buddha Shakyamuni taught the Second Turning of the Wheel from Vulture Peak, many of the monks in attendence "gnashed their teeth" in dismay at what was being taught. essentially, these beings held the view of some eternally existing, independent entity which permenatly exists from its own side. typically, this "entity" was the mind and the Prajnaparamita Sutras (the Perfection of Wisdom Sutras) explain how this is a mistaken cognition of the teaching of Shunyata. perhaps a bit off topic in our discussion at this point.

2) Has anybody from the Hinyana vehicle "rediscovered" any of the other schools from that vehicle or have the "lost" schools merged to become the last remaining one?

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

good question. my understanding of this isn't very firm.

from an historical perspective, i think, we should look.

in India there are and were many religious traditions, as we all know. what we may not realize, however, is that the "correctness" of each tradition was/is determined by debate in the philosophical arena, with the loser of the debate often coverting to the religious view of the winner.

given that, i would conclude that the "lost" Hinyana schools were defeated in philosophical debate and thus, were no longer practiced.

as for "rediscovering them" i think that this will be rather difficult, if possible at all.

if such a thing would happen, i suspect it would be in a country like Thailand or Sri Lanka where the Theravedan tradition was re-established after the Christian invaders destroyed the existing monastic establishements. since Buddhism places a very heavy emphasis on its lineage (the Tibetans have a saying... if a source of water is pure, you can trace it back to its source in the snowy mountians) the government of Sri Lanka asked a Theravedan group in Thailand to re-establish the lineage in Sri Lanka and thus their lineage continues there.

of course, these are my views on the subject and others may disagree.

metta,

~v

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

Thank you for your seemingly limitless patience with the ever- student.

My next question is getting back on-topic concerning Vajrayana: do the different schools have differing countries of "origin"? I mean, I realize that your particular school/s originate from Tibet, but are there schools that originate from say, Nepal or Burma? Perhaps Cambodia or Laos?

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

[Vajradhara]

Namaste phyllis,

thank you for the post and the kind words

Originally Posted by Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

My next question is getting back on-topic concerning Vajrayana: do the different schools have differing countries of "origin"? I mean, I realize that your particular school/s originate from Tibet, but are there schools that originate from say, Nepal or Burma? Perhaps Cambodia or Laos?

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

well... yes, simply enough

generally speaking, when we are referring to schools we mean to reference things like Zen, which is Japanese or T'ien T'ai which is Chinese, Ch'an which is Chinese and so forth.

in the broader sense, i.e. of Vehicles (mahayana and such) these are not really nation specific, though we do tend to find certain Vehicles in certain areas this is more a matter of the historical spreading of the teachings.

in my particular case, i practice the Varjayana as found in Tibet. there are, however, other Vajrayana schools, like the Shingon school in Japan and there is one in Korea (though the name slips my mind at the moment).

metta,

~v

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

Next question (split it off into its own thread if you feel it's too off-topic): I was personally invited to a semi-public ritual at a Laos-origin Hinyana temple, and I'd like to be able to participate within legitimate parameters (I'm not of any school of Buddhism and I still have some of my "ortho-conservative Jewish baggage") without causing for either my hostess or myself. What might I expect and what might be their expectations.

Again, sorry. *hands over another pair of :kitty:s*

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine (your perpetually student with a plethora of :kitty:s)

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

Next question (split it off into its own thread if you feel it's too off-topic): I was personally invited to a semi-public ritual at a Laos-origin Hinyana temple, and I'd like to be able to participate within legitimate parameters (I'm not of any school of Buddhism and I still have some of my "ortho-conservative Jewish baggage") without causing for either my hostess or myself. What might I expect and what might be their expectations.

Again, sorry. *hands over another pair of :kitty:s*

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine (your perpetually student with a plethora of :kitty:s)

Namaste Phyllis,

no worries... i think that threads tend to take on a flow of their own

i would have to say that, without knowing the specifics, it would be hard to answer. do you happen to know if this is for observance of any particular occassion? full moon day, perhaps?

that being said, all that i could tell you about it would be from a doctrinal point of view... my practice isn't culturally Laotian so their nuances are rather unknown to me.

metta,

~v

[friendoftheworld]

just testing this out

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

Um, another pair (or set) of questions concerning your paths:

1) What is the significance of "excommunication" in Buddhism in general, Vajrayana vehicle in particular?

2) Is there a special significance to the "restoration" of those who have been "excommunicated" by a Vajrasattva/bohtisattva (sp?)?

Sorry about this. *hands over another pair of :kitty:s

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Phyllis,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

1) What is the significance of "excommunication" in Buddhism in general, Vajrayana vehicle in particular?

well.. we don't have this sort of practice in general. there are, however, situations where a monk or nun may be asked to leave the monestary which is about as close to this concept as we'd come. in that case, they are no longer a monk or nun but their level of Awakening isn't impacted by this administrative move, as it were.

2) Is there a special significance to the "restoration" of those who have been "excommunicated" by a Vajrasattva/bohtisattva (sp?)?

it seems like you're confusing a bit of Catholic teaching with ours a being does not require an intermediary to have contact with Varjasattva or any other Buddha or Bodhisattva and thus another being cannot imped such contact.

metta,

~v

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

Then, what was the significance of the inverted alms bowls during the "Myanmar protests"? Wasn't that a Buddhist form of what Christians refer to as excommunication? If so, please refer back to my previous questions.

Yours in blushing confusion,
Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

[Snoopy]

Burmese Buddhism is Theravadan. So the relationship between the monks and the laity is a two way street. The monks are striving for nirvana and are supported by the laity with alms food; put in the bowls during the alms rounds each day. In their turn, the laity receive merit for their giving and receive teaching, guidance and ceremonies from the monks (and may be reborn as monks or nuns…).

So by holding their bowls upside down, this is a message aimed at the junta, showing the monk’s rejection of said regime. It’s in effect saying the military are excommunicated from the faith.

I don’t care if any of what I’ve said is wrong; I just want kittens!

s.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Phyllis,

thank you for the post.

ah.. the context helps

as Snoop alluded to, this is a form of protest by the monastic community towards the repressive government and its policies however it isn't excommunication in the sense which that term conveys.

what is going on here is that the monks are not permitting the use of a particular form of practice, namely skillful action of making donations to the Sangha. the laiety could still engage in the other skillful actions which the monastics have no involvement with such as the Observation Day and things of this nature.

metta,

~v

[Snoopy]

“In recent days the monks have taken the decision to "excommunicate" the regime and anyone associated with it by refusing alms. As they marched yesterday, some of the monks held their black begging bowls upside down to symbolise their rejection of the regime. In the Burmese language, the term for "boycott" comes from the words for holding a bowl inverted.”

Suu Kyi lends support as thousands march in Burmese capital - Asia, World - The Independent

I still want a kitten.


s.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

“In recent days the monks have taken the decision to "excommunicate" the regime and anyone associated with it by refusing alms. As they marched yesterday, some of the monks held their black begging bowls upside down to symbolise their rejection of the regime. In the Burmese language, the term for "boycott" comes from the words for holding a bowl inverted.”

Suu Kyi lends support as thousands march in Burmese capital - Asia, World - The Independent

I still want a kitten.


s.

In 1989-92 I was building buildings (what esle would one build? builts??) in DC near China town. Hunan Pizza closed down and in moved Burma our newest fave restaraunt of the fifty or so choices down there. Became to know the owner and the family, similar strife was going on then. And the monks were revolting in the same way, not frequenting houses of the military or gov't. Myanmar was the name of 'the land', Burma was the name of 'the people' and 'the language' us know it all westerners changed the name of the country and the people and the language....or so I was told. So to me odds are excommunicate and such are words we use to define in our terms what we understand is going on...


love Kwa thoke and sour mustard plant...ymmmm Also having a monk stay at your house was an honor and blessing on your family for a year....not being able to support the monks meant a big deal to these people, some reforms were made back then...but she is still in house arrest...

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

Wil has the right of it; the term "excommunication" is the chosen English term since most beings that speak English have some understanding of what this term implies which is an extreme censure of a particular being or group.

if they used Buddhist terms the article would be TL;DR, pedantic and overly academic which is, if i'm not mistaken, not the point of the article.

techincally speaking it's about a particular practice dealing with the generation of merit and how such activities positively impact the Vipaka of ones Karma. within the overall rubric of Buddhism support of the monastic Sangha is one of the most important things that a lay person can do, to the degree that there are Suttas relating to how much cloth should be donated and at what times and all of that sort of thing.

the withholding of this particular form of merit generation is quite serious and expresses the totality of the boycott originating from the monastic community.

iirc, idea of being excommunicated implies that if the excommunicated being were to die they would not be able to go to heaven whereas the generation of merit through the support of the Sangha and the subsequent withholding of this merit does not, in and of itself, prevent a being from having a positive rebirth nor from generating merit through other activities proscribed for the lay Sangha.

metta,

~v

[Francis king]

rdwillia...

"Vajrasattva empowerment", or any kind of empowerment, is A CON JOB... do you think you need special permission before you can think/act/feel? Do you think that giving money to people will guarantee you some special favour?

You can go online and find anything you want for free... buddhism is free, nobody owns it, its not for buying and selling, and if it is given, it should be freely given...

you think some god is going to suddenyl make it all okay? You're deluding yourself... You have money to waste? Then give it to a proper charity, that actually helps people... rather than just helps itself...