Who understands what the goal of the religion of Judasim is?

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Bishadi

Name something of prophecy that was changed by a group changing their ways?

Heck, I can answer that, and I'm not even a Jew: Jonah and his prophesying against Nineveh. They changed their ways and averted destruction.

[Dream]

Bush, I'm still wondering about the 5 Seminaries you graduated from by age 20.

http://www.comparative-religion.com/...tml#post144452

Have you really done that?

[dauer]

Bishadi,

I am not perfect. Never said I was, but likewise you talking about my english yet you use religious words as if everyone of english would have an awareness of your religious observances. Like you said; many faith comes from the same book.

I use those words because you present firm opinions with little knowledge of Judaism. You disagree with statements that I, as someone who knows Judaism personally, have made and can back up with Jewish sources including Tanach, Talmud and later literature as well as the way things are done by the people today. You try to back yourself up by making arguments that aren't valid approaches within Judaism because they disregard basic Jewish ideas. If you're going to behave like you know what you're talking about then I will respond to you as if you do by using Jewish vocabulary. If you admit your own ignorance then I have no reason to continue doing so.

The thread is about the 'goal' of Judaism; and is opened to read others ideas and opinions but be certain you do not speak for the 'majority' of them.

You asked what the goal of Judaism is. I am a Jew. BB is also a Jew. We have answered you. Both of us strongly disagree with each other a lot of the time (go back a bit in the Jewish forums and you can find some interesting discussions between us along those lines) and yet we still both agree that you are wrong about Judaism and know very little about the religion.

You are speaking from your point of view as you believe everyone should.

I am not speaking from my POV. This isn't about my beliefs. It's about basic ideas in Judaism. My own beliefs are a separate issue and when someone asks a general question about Judaism I give general answers, not the specifics of my own worldview.

it's normal but please do not suggest we as human being are not watching the TV and see some guy (orthodox) suggesting that the temple mount must be rebuilt for the messiah to come. I know better and it seems you do too but you are not speaking FOR Judaism; just for you sect.

No I've already answered you regarding people like that and I am not speaking for my sect, nor could I very well since I am post-denominational and don't fully agree with any individual denomination. I am speaking of the general views within Judaism. Have you been reading my posts thoroughly? Did you see my mention of the Temple Institute? The people you point out are the crazies that I speak of. The majority of Orthodox Jews do not agree with them. Are you familiar with the concept of sensationalism in the media? More extreme views get more coverage. By that same token, there are some Orthodox Jews who are completely against the state of Israel as it exists today and wish to see the present state of Israel gone. They are also in the minority and also get more press because of media sensationalism. There are absolutists much like yourself who would argue that real Jews are anti-zionists based on the same flawed logic that you have used.

Madonna

Madonna's not Jewish. She got into the Kabbalah Centre which is not a Jewish organization, nor do they claim to be.

R' Akiva

R' Akiva is dead. He was killed by the Romans. Nor is your reference to him very relevant. If someone has died before fulfilling the messianic prophecies, e.g. Jesus, Bar Kokhba, Shabtai Tzvi among others, then they are not the Jewish messiah regardless of how some people. Jewish or non-Jewish may view them. Jesus may be something to Christianity and that's fine, but Judaism he's just another Jewish boy who was killed by the Romans.

that you started out fair and with kindness..... but since you speak for the majority of judaism, i am sure we will bump heads eventually..... as I am biased against anyone who secularizes against the truth...

Your language is hard to understand. It looks like you used the word secularize incorrectly. I've quoted the dictionary definition of secular below.

I don't claim that my own views are the majority Jewish views. I disagree with the majority quite regularly. However, I am well educated enough to know the views of the majority. You on the other hand base your opinion on a few Jews that you saw on a television show.

secular |ˈsekyələr|
adjective
1 denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis : secular buildings | secular moral theory. Contrasted with sacred .
2 Christian Church (of clergy) not subject to or bound by religious rule; not belonging to or living in a monastic or other order. Contrasted with regular .
3 Astronomy of or denoting slow changes in the motion of the sun or planets.
4 Economics (of a fluctuation or trend) occurring or persisting over an indefinitely long period : there is evidence that the slump is not cyclical but secular.
5 occurring once every century or similarly long period (used esp. in reference to celebratory games in ancient Rome).

is that so?

Of course it is. Otherwise I wouldn't have said that it is. Do you have something worthwhile to say or are you just going to make snarky responses to me?

Name something of prophecy that was changed by a group changing their ways?

BB may be able to provide an example off the top of his head. I cannot nor is it terribly relevant. Whether or not people have changed their ways has nothing to do with whether that effects the outcome of prophecy. The view of Judaism is that it effects the outcome. Prophets in Judaism are not just some sort of seer as the English word prophet might suggest. The ability they sometimes have to see what others cannot is secondary to their role in pointing out the errors of people's actions and urging them toward teshuva. Then there are of course different types of prophets that fill different roles.

that birth has already occurred

Not according to Judaism.

We can all see that ....

Yours posts suggest otherwise.

so now to understand a book half the globe has access too, now we must do an ology of methods in order to comprhend the majority of youe religious order.

It has nothing to do with how much access there is to the book. The Tanach was taken by Christianity and interpreted very differently than it is in the context of Judaism. If you wish to understand Judaism's views of Torah then you need to understand the Torah in the context of Judaism. There isn't really a lot of exposure to the Tanach in the world either. There is exposure to translations that can be very poor due to both interpretive decisions by Christians, frequent basis in the Septuagint instead of the masoretic text for translation, and because it is regularly translated outside of its family of languages. Qorban and sacrifice mean two extremely different things. Even Tzedakah and charity mean different things. Sin and chayt mean two different things. If you want to understand a text, context is everything, and you have shown that you lack that.

you must be another of the 'chosen' to tell me how about defining. I brought the torah because talmut to me is 'less than' pure.... ....

If you don't consider the Talmud valid then why bring up questions about Judaism? The Talmud is a part of Judaism just like the Greek Testament is a part of Christianity. Why even bother in interfaith dialogue if you're only going to say to the very people you're attempting to engage with that their own books, about which you ask questions, aren't a valid answer to you? If I go to a Christian and I ask them about their beliefs, and they cite the Greek Testament, then I understand that for them that's what counts and I respect that. You should learn to do the same.

I don't know what you mean by "another of the 'chosen'" either. Judaism's view of chosenness is very different from how you probably consider it.

as it is like reading a ted haggard translation of the bible...

Because we explain to you what Judaism is? Were you expecting that we'd hear what you have to say and then say, "Oh gosh. We were mistaken. Our communities were all mistaken. Our families were all mistaken. This guy on a comparative religion forum understands our religion better than the Jewish people."?

the thread is to share a messianic belief of (a branch i guess) the judaistic faith in which the religious right (orthodox) actually believe they must build a new temple, often referred to in midrash

No the Orthodox don't believe that. A minority of the Orthodox do, just like a minority of the Orthodox believe that the Jewish state of Israel shouldn't exist at all and should be disbanded or worse. You are generalizing based on the minority. I am clarifying the majority.

but please tell me how wrong I am as it appears to if a line from david was right in front of you, you would not even know it

I've already told you how wrong you are repeatedly. You continue to claim a special authority about what Judaism is that disagrees with what Judaism says about itself.

or let me guess, you waiting for perfection!

I don't even know what you mean by that.


If you really are having a hard time understanding what I or anyone else is saying, it's not going to aide dialogue if you assume you understand. Admit you don't understand and ask for clarification.

-- Dauer

[dauer]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Heck, I can answer that, and I'm not even a Jew: Jonah and his prophesying against Nineveh. They changed their ways and averted destruction.

:O Duh. I should have remembered that. Thanks Seattlegal.

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Heck, I can answer that, and I'm not even a Jew: Jonah and his prophesying against Nineveh. They changed their ways and averted destruction.

ooops!

13And He stretcheth His hand against the north, And doth destroy Asshur, And he setteth Nineveh for a desolation, A dry land like a wilderness.

or even

6And I have cast upon thee abominations, And dishonoured thee, and made thee as a sight.
7And it hath come to pass, Each of thy beholders fleeth from thee, And hath said: `Spoiled is Nineveh, Who doth bemoan for her?' Whence do I seek comforters for thee?


19There is no weakening of thy destruction, Grievous [is] thy smiting, All hearing thy fame have clapped the hand at thee, For over whom did not thy wickedness pass continually?

as that is almost as bad as

3and of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden God hath said, Ye do not eat of it, nor touch it, lest ye die.'


4And the serpent saith unto the woman, `Dying, ye do not die,
5for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it -- your eyes have been opened, and ye have been as God, knowing good and evil.'

but then

22And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,' --

so who do you believe?

hmmmmmmmmm

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by dauer

:O Duh. I should have remembered that. Thanks Seattlegal.

and then have the audacity to say

I use those words because you present firm opinions with little knowledge of Judaism

do you not read your own literature guys/gals

nineveh is gone....... not much undoing, un-prophecy-ing there...


not even a cloth sack will stop what was written; least of all should you adhere to the words that suggest a man was alive in the stomache of a sheol

the lesson was learned though.....

"even doing good hurts"

thank you very much

[Bishadi]

Dauer,

i am having a tough time getting through your post....

Since the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, religious Jews have prayed that God will allow for the building of a Third Temple. This prayer has been a formal part of the traditional thrice daily Jewish prayer services. Though it remains unbuilt, the notion of and desire for a Third Temple is sacred in Judaism, particularly Orthodox Judaism, as an unrealized place of worship. The prophets in the Tanakh called for its construction, to be fulfilled in the Messianic era.

this is talking about Judaism and if you have a problem with what the majority on the globe comprehend, than too bad.

as for your

If you're going to behave like you know what you're talking about then I will respond to you as if you do by using Jewish vocabulary. If you admit your own ignorance then I have no reason to continue doing so.

watch your tone

[Bishadi]

and this stuff is basic wiki

Orthodox Judaism believes in the rebuilding of a Third Temple and the resumption of sacrificial worship, although there is disagreement about how rebuilding should take place or exactly what kind of worship will occur. Orthodox authorities generally believe that rebuilding should occur in the era of the Jewish Messiah at the hand of Divine Providence, although a minority position, following the opinion of Maimonides, holds that Jews should endeavor to rebuild the temple themselves, whenever possible[1]. Orthodox authorities generally predict the resumption of the complete traditional system of sacrifices, but some authorities have disagreed. It has traditionally been assumed that some sort of animal sacrifices would be reinstituted, in accord with the rules in Leviticus and the Talmud. This belief is embedded in Orthodox liturgy. Every Orthodox prayer service contains prayers for the Temple's restoration and for sacrificial worship's resumption, and every day there is a recitation of the order of the day's sacrifices and the psalms the Levites would have sung that day.
The generally accepted position among Orthodox Jews is that the full order of the sacrifices will be resumed upon the building of the Temple.

as since we first started I have read over 50 pages of material...

that is all I do



this is basic common knowledge all over the globe, if you think you speak for judaism, then please have all the knowledge changed to meet your specific beliefs

[dauer]

do you not read your own literature guys/gals

If you argue against Jewish views of negative prophecy as not being Jewish views then you know little about Judaism. Firstly, our own literature includes the Talmud and if you leave that out, you're not getting a normative Jewish perspective. If your concern is for something that's based solely in the Tanach then you'd want to bug the Karaites who would still disagree with you.

13And He stretcheth His hand against the north, And doth destroy Asshur, And he setteth Nineveh for a desolation, A dry land like a wilderness.

If you quote a text, cite it. Don't give it out of context. In the book of Jonah, negative prophecy works as Seattlegal explained it. When something happens at another time that is a separate issue. I don't even know what translation you're using.

"10. And God saw their deeds, that they had repented of their evil way, and the Lord relented concerning the evil that He had spoken to do to them, and He did not do it."

Jonah 3:10

Yonah - Chapter 3 - Jonah

this is talking about Judaism and if you have a problem with what the majority on the globe comprehend, than too bad.

Again, your blatant ignorance and audacity is astounding. It says praying for the third temple, not that they want to go ahead and construct it. The majority of Orthodox Judaism, let alone the rest of Judaism, says that we don't need to go ahead and do it. It will happen in the time of the mashiach.

watch your tone

How dare you? You regularly insult people and make triumphalist claims about their own religions. You claim your own views on other's religions are more correct and provide your own subjective determinations of what sources in other religions are valid for the discussion of those religions. And you are ignorant, most definitely, about Judaism. You show that with every post. If you would like to be able to continue having conversations with those of us on the forum, I suggest you shift your attitude.

as since we first started I have read over 50 pages of material...

Again, you're not reading. You're skimming and missing important points, for example:

" Orthodox authorities generally believe that rebuilding should occur in the era of the Jewish Messiah at the hand of Divine Providence, although a minority position, following the opinion of Maimonides, holds that Jews should endeavor to rebuild the temple themselves, whenever possible[1]. "

In other words, when I told you that one view is a minority most encapsulated in the views of the Temple Institute, this article agrees with me. Also, wiki is a poor source for information. I can offer better online sources, for example:

My Jewish Learning: Jewish Socialism in America

The above is trans-denominational. If you're only interested in the Orthodox perspective, go here:

Judaism 101

And of course there are many books on the market that cover Jewish history, practice and belief from many angles.

-- Dauer

[Raksha]

Again, your blatant ignorance and audacity is astounding. It says praying for the third temple, not that they want to go ahead and construct it. The majority of Orthodox Judaism, let alone the rest of Judaism, says that we don't need to go ahead and do it. It will happen in the time of the mashiach.

Dauer,

I haven't been here for awhile, but I just skimmed through this entire thread as far as it's gone. You've done a incredible job of expressing the mainstream Jewish view of messianism and what (if anything) should be done to facilitate the coming of the Messiah.

I admire your patience and eloquence. I've been where you are more times than I want to think about, against the same kind of arrogant triumphalism. This kind of thing is such old news to me that I'm reluctant to get back into the fray again, but I wanted to offer a word of encouragement.

Bishadi,

What Dauer has been trying to get across to you *IS* the mainstream Jewish view of messianism, including the mainstream Orthodox view. I say that as someone who is pretty much off the left edge of the Jewish spectrum, and who doesn't agree with mainstream Orthodoxy about much of anything.

Shalom,
Linda

[dauer]

Linda,

I appreciate that and it's good to see you around again.

-- Dauer

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by Raksha

Bishadi,

What Dauer has been trying to get across to you *IS* the mainstream Jewish view of messianism, including the mainstream Orthodox view. I say that as someone who is pretty much off the left edge of the Jewish spectrum, and who doesn't agree with mainstream Orthodoxy about much of anything.

Shalom,
Linda

Hello Linda,

sorry but Dauer is a wee bit off the mark and although he is getting upset, at least his first couple posts put me into a learning curve

it is why i come to these things

[dauer]

Bishadi,

asserting something to be true does not make it true. You are still ignorant about Judaism and I have provided you with the correct answers. You stubbornly refuse to listen to what others who know more than you about Judaism say, at this point three Jews as well as at least one person who is not Jewish in this thread alone.

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by dauer

If you argue against Jewish views of negative prophecy as not being Jewish views then you know little about Judaism.

not trying to think like a jew, i am human and can think for myself.....

Firstly, our own literature includes the Talmud and if you leave that out, you're not getting a normative Jewish perspective. If your concern is for something that's based solely in the Tanach then you'd want to bug the Karaites who would still disagree with you.

and no mtter what i say someone will disagree

If you quote a text, cite it. Don't give it out of context. In the book of Jonah, negative prophecy works as Seattlegal explained it.

no it didn't, the city was destroyed by God.....

face the fact

When something happens at another time that is a separate issue. I don't even know what translation you're using.

youngs literal translations......

and if you like to be equal then use it, versus the site your sect of judaism represents.

"10. And God saw their deeds, that they had repented of their evil way, and the Lord relented concerning the evil that He had spoken to do to them, and He did not do it."

but the fact is... HE did do it!

nothing to debate

the city was destroyed and written that God himself did it.... and if your opinion suggest God is just so wishy washy well is shares the same of your opinion of the religion Judaism

Again, your blatant ignorance and audacity is astounding. It says praying for the third temple, not that they want to go ahead and construct it. The majority of Orthodox Judaism, let alone the rest of Judaism, says that we don't need to go ahead and do it. It will happen in the time of the mashiach.

does that go with what is published out of Israel

Based upon this understanding it stands to reason that a situation could arise wherein a third Temple could be built in Jerusalem and the messiah has still not yet arrived. This concurs with the opinion expressed in the Jerusalem Talmud: "The [third] Holy Temple will in the future be re-established before the establishment of the Kingdom of David." (JT Ma'aser Sheni 29)

The Temple Institute
POB 31876
Misgav Ladach 24,
Jewish Quarter, 91317, Jerusalem, Israel
Phone: 011 9722 894119, 894336
FAX 011 9722 274 529
Light to the Nations
Rabbi Haim Richman
PO Box 31714
Jerusalem, Israel

Maybe read a little from Israel, it seems there is a little religion called Judaism that has many different ideas than what you suggest

or simply, i have acknowledged what you are sharing but you failed to acknowledge that it is Jewish believers that are intending exactly what is being suggested and just because you don;t agree with the observance does not mean i am ignorance but quite the contrary; you are being so selfish as to deface your integrity

How dare you? You regularly insult people and make triumphalist claims about their own religions.

but so far you will not admit that nineveh is gone and the story of Jonah is proven a failure to literature

such that God was said HE WOULD destroy the city, and did.

and it is tough for me to believe either a guy who was in the stomache of a fish or you, when I can read for myself, within the literature itself that what you are suggesting is a wee but short of what knowledge is really out there

Again, you're not reading. You're skimming and missing important points, for example:

" Orthodox authorities generally believe that rebuilding should occur in the era of the Jewish Messiah at the hand of Divine Providence, although a minority position, following the opinion of Maimonides, holds that Jews should endeavor to rebuild the temple themselves, whenever possible[1]. "

In other words, when I told you that one view is a minority most encapsulated in the views of the Temple Institute, this article agrees with me.

OK... maybe TI is speaking for Judaism and you don't.

Maybe them being in Israel, talking with Jews, maybe even bump into a few on the street or at the head bangers wall; perhaps maybe reading what they have to say, has a little more relevance to prophecies than what you have to suggest.

have you ever wondered if you are wrong, about Judaism as a whole?

I mean you have to admit the variations are huge, and there are folk in judasim that do not believe as you do, either...

don;t be mad at me for being direct;

try being a little more aware of what is going on in the real world

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by dauer

Bishadi,

asserting something to be true does not make it true. You are still ignorant about Judaism and I have provided you with the correct answers. You stubbornly refuse to listen to what others who know more than you about Judaism say, at this point three Jews as well as at least one person who is not Jewish in this thread alone.

hey Nineveh was destroyed by God..... your friends answer was proven incorrect.....

fact is I shared information and you didn't like it

again you are not the rabbi nor the representative of Judaism.... and when you cannot see items as simple as the Jonah issue as being a literary contradiction, then your ability of being honest is questioned.

i suggested i had read for hours based on this discussion and you try and tell me how i am reading it and that I am not using your methology of reading the material...

which to even suggest is down right rude...

so if you wish to have a battle of wits, then try me but quit poking the lion as if i am anything less than you.....

be honest and we can articulate but if you cannot be equal, on solid ground, then go jump in a lake


i say the purpose of Judaism; the ultimate goal of the community known as Israel is to build the temple mount for the messiah

so even if one little rabbi in a back desert cave of Israel also shares this coupled with torah, tanach or talmut if you will, then you either have at least be honest with yourself, or you commit a treason to rule number 9....


point is some of judaism are not like you